straight-arm swimming??

Hi,

Simple physics show that those windmill arms cost you more energy - it is less efficient. This is because the straight arm has a higher angular momentum about your shoulder than the bent arm, you have to apply more force to rotate it.

The other argument I was given for the bent-arm is that the hand travels a shorter path so you can advance it faster for the next stroke. The shorter path is part of that story, the other is that with reduced angular momentum you can accelerate your arm faster and move it forward.

Regardless, the straight arm means that your shoulder muscles does all the movement which is likely why you get so tired. 

When I learned freestyle, now many years ago, we did a different drill: HIA - hand in armpit. When you advance the arm over water you bend your elbow such that you can touch your armpit.

Maybe you got faster because of strength and not technique? Why not give it a try when your coach is not looking?

Cheers, Erik

Interesting thoughts, although I'm not sure how much it's helping me roll because I did have a straight arm/reach at the beginning of my stroke before. Also, I'm pretty sure it's the straight arm on the recovery that hurts, because that's when it hurts - when I'm rotating my shoulder. It feels like I have to rotate FOREVER just to get my arm from behind me to back in front of me. That's also the part of the stroke that I tend to slack on when I get tired, but the coach always finds me and follows me on the deck, holding her arms straight out to correct me.

On the upside, I'm pretty sure that swimming that way is starting to give me some fierce-looking biceps that I never had before. It's either that or the aerobars on my bike, or maybe both.

We had a substitute coach the other day who didn't seem to care, and I did try it then. I don't know if my speed was different but I sure as heck enjoyed swimming more.

The physics sound right and totally explain how I feel.

I think I do get more strength from straight arms and I can propel through shorter sets faster, but it doesn't seem to me to be practical to train for an Ironman that way, not when shaving some time off the swim may mean that I'm dead tired getting out of the water. I think I'll try that angle with the coach. She's a swimmer, not a triathlete.

LOL! I've paid for this masters group through the end of July, and it's about the only one in town that works with my crazy work schedule. I may check out another group after that, if I can make it work.

I am getting something out of it, though - much more motivation to get in the pool, and getting used to swimming with other people and dealing with being splashed and ran into. That's actually one of my biggest issues.

I'll throw in my 2 cents here.  I surfed for many years when I lived in california.  As a surfer I did a lot of hard and fast paddling and my arms were very straight when I did it.  Fast forward 20 years and I get in the pool to learn Tri swimming and I'm swimming lightning fast with straight arms.  I was faster than all my Tri buddies that have been swimming for years, but the catch was I couldn't go for more than 25 meters without being totally exhausted.  I also noticed with swimming a lot of laps my shoulders would start to hurt.

I gradually learned a proper swim stroke with high elbows, catch, etc... and my efficiency went through the roof but I started using my back/arm muscles more than my shoulder muscles so I wasn't anywhere near as fast.  I've had to swim many many laps to slowly build the different muscles I was now using to increase my speed.  I'm still nowhere near as fast as I used to be as far as sprinting goes, but I can go a lot longer at a much faster pace now than I ever could before.

So, my random internet guy opinion is that swimming with straight arms makes you use your shoulders more which are likely stronger, but its putting a lot of pressure on the joints so in the long run it may not be the best approach.  

Hi,

I found this nice video, really good quality over and under water, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND1L8I2ZY5w&feature=endscreen 

what is great is that first, he's a triathlete so his swimstyle is not optimized for the explosive sprints like Phelps or Thorpe. This guy, according to he video made the IM swim split in just 44 minutes, that's really impressive!

You can see above water his lower arm swings forward in a bent elbow, and fingers go in first when the arm is almost fully stretched.

Underwater he bends the elbow when the arm is about 30 degrees angle. The underarm is then perpendicular to the length of the body thus using the entire underarm and hand for propulsion. When the arm gets toward the end of the stroke, about 30 degrees angle again he straightens out the arm to get the last push from the hand.

Another thing you see is the stroke is asymmetrical, likely due to his right side only breathing. The right arm goes deeper into the water while the left seems to go outward. 

Lastly you'll note a generally strong kick. What I have seen in videos posted by people here is a weak kick, likely to save the legs for later. But I think the strong kick might be helpful in sighting as you might otherwise experience your legs get pushed into the water when you get your head up for sighting.

He also demonstrates some sighting, I was surprised that he keeps his head up for an entire stroke - and yet seem to maintain his pace!

They also go on in other videos to look at other successful swimmers, different stroke styles and strokes per length/stroke rate. It's always interesting to see how others do, but how much you can apply in your style may depend on your level. There are no hard and fast rules, I guess rule one is do what works for you. 

Cheers, Erik

I appreciate the "new coach" sentiments, but for now, let's proceed as if that's not an immediate and easy option, ok? I have to go back to the drawing board, find out who's good and find a masters group that works in my schedule - not an easy thing to do.

Plus, this is the second local coach I've tried. The first one was highly recommended by a number of triathletes around here. I met with her for an individual session. She spent most of the time videotaping me, then explaining a proper freestyle stroke (most of which I already knew and I had told her that I don't do well with just having things explained to me and then trying to do them), then she ignored everything I said I wanted to work on and focused on my kick. She gave me two drills to do for that (utilizing a special kickboard that I don't own), said she'd post all my videos on a website for me, and never did.

I no longer harbor any delusions that I'm going to improve much on the swim. I would just like to make the cutoff. I am going to ask the current coach if I can tweak my form to make it easier on my shoulders long-term. Current coach did get me breathing bilaterally, which is a small miracle, so she ain't all bad.

As a coach and a swimmer, I'm going to go against the flow here and say, "stick with your coach". 

There's a new trend amongst coaches to work with people's existing biomechanics instead of forcing a uniform stroke onto everyone. A lot of that was inspired by looking at folks who swim straight arm freestyle, which as has been pointed out, is mechanically less efficient than bent recovery freestyle. 

However, what's been found out is the individual biomechanics play a much greater role than simply pure physics. In fact, Phelps and other top swimmers have been encouraged to do drills with straight arms in the last two years. 

I say, "Stick with your coach for a few months and see how your straight arm technique works after a few races". I cannot see your technique, and I cannot evaluate whether your coach is bunk or not, but by simply saying "swim with straight arms", I can guess that she's either 1) insane or 2) totally awesome and brilliant and cutting edge... but likely, as with all coaching, it's a trial and error thing and if this doesn't work,  you can still get more conventional advice. 

But if it works: welcome Janet Evans 2.0!

STICK WITH YOUR COACH.

(PS. I can write a bit on the physics/physiology of why straight arm works for some long distance swimmers, but I rather not at this moment. I'll do it later if asked.) 

I know you don't want to hear it, but it's valid advice. I'd take it a step further and ask for my money back. If that doesn't work, I'd demand it. From both of the coaches.

From day one, when I was an absolute hack in the water, my coach was convinced I'd be able to compete in sprints and olys this season and Ironman for summer 2013. That's what coaches do ... they realize THEIR potential as coaches to help you realize YOURS as an athlete.

If the best coach you have available to you sucks, then it's not worth your time or money. 

Re above: I think she's saying the opposite - she will pull with the straight arm and bend her elbow OUT of the water. 

I think that you probably simply need more help with your pull.   For whatever reason you can pull better with a straight arm, but that's just a short term solution.  Since you have this coach for a while anyway... how about asking her for help specifically with pulling drills.  You need to work on that high elbow catch.  Do you know the catch-up drill?  That helps enforce the technique. 

Just like any profession, there are relatively few really good coaches; there are a lot of mediocre and some bad coaches.

My own experience is that the best swim coaches pay attention to what's happening under water, particularly with a long arm at the catch, a high elbow in the pull, and that you are powerful after your forearm passes you shoulder.

I also note that many coaches spend most of their time paying attention to what they can see above the water because they aren't very good at, and can't see, what matters. They use what they can see out of the water to deduce the pull.

So here's a trick you can play on your coach: swing your straight arms out of the water, and try a proper stroke, with high elbows, in the pull.

Update: to the previous poster, tag, you're it!

Well, I guess I am going to go against the grain here, because I am a straight arm swimmer.  I know there is a lot of debate on the "correct" way to swim, but there are a lot of coaches and even athletes who are transitioning to straight arm swimming such as Michael Phelps and Eamonn Sullivan.  

I am fully aware that the bent arm or high elbow technique is "more efficient" when used in conjunction with body rotation, and puts less stress on your shoulder muscles.  Personally, I have been using both methods to train.  I have also been doing dryland exercises to strengthen my shoulder muscles. 

Now, I haven't done anything longer than Sprint distance, and I am sure that as I move up my distances in races, I am going to end up using both techniques.  

I use the straight arm because it gives me a quicker velocity over a shorter distance.  As my arm exits the back of the stroke, that momentum is carried through the recovery without my elbow changing it's angle.  I am able to do up to 1200 in straight arm, and not feel any pain in my shoulders.  

I am actually going to try out a plan for my upcoming sprint.  I am going to straight arm swim at the start to see if I can get some open water from the other swimmers and then decide if I would like to settle into a groove with the high elbow or if I am going to go all out and continue straight arm.  It will be a race day decision.  

For sprint distance, it puts me at 1:57 per 100 race pace, and will be fine for me since I know I have the strength in my shoulders to come out of the swim without pain or over exerting myself.  

When I move up in distances beyond a sprint, I will utilize both techniques without question.  I personally don't see anything wrong with using straight arm and high elbow techniques if you are comfortable with them both.  

Every coach is different, but I think that you need to be comfortable with your form and swim technique.  I have found what works for me, and it may not work for others.  I think the important thing is that you feel confident and comfortable in your own swimming.