General Discussion Triathlon Talk » 910xt swim mode - lap vs start/stop? Rss Feed  
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2012-07-06 2:14 PM

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Subject: 910xt swim mode - lap vs start/stop?
I just got the 910xt a couple days ago and only swam with it once (which I royally messed up with my mis-use of buttons) so I'm not quite getting the best way to work it.

My workout is a slow warmup, then some drills, then some sprints, then longer swim, then a cool down. There are rest periods in between a lot of it. I'm not quite sure when I should be hitting start/stop versus lap. For instance - when I'm doing the sprints I have a 30 second rest period in between. If I finish a sprint and hit lap does it keep going with the timer and count the 30 second rest as part of the next sprint interval? Should I hit stop after each sprint and then start for the next one?

I'm not quite sure when I should be hitting which buttons, especially with regard to the rest periods.


2012-07-06 2:34 PM
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2012-07-06 2:45 PM
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Subject: RE: 910xt swim mode - lap vs start/stop?

You should hit the lap button. It's that simple.

The 910xt will correctly identify rest intervals and swims and separate each sprint or whatever you're doing, and it will count pool lengths correctly, when you hit the lap button, the watch assume you're at the wall. Check this workout: http://connect.garmin.com/activity/193960561

I have two screens, one showing total time and distance the other showing current lap time and lengths. So if I loose count I can glance at it. The only thing that I find annoying or haven't figured how to configure is how long the lap time is shown after you hit the lap button. By default it's 10sec, but if I want 10sec rest I need to see the count down.

And then, I'd like to be able to edit the data because for obvious reasons it won't identify kick sets.

Cheers, Erik

2012-07-06 2:48 PM
in reply to: #4297776

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Subject: RE: 910xt swim mode - lap vs start/stop?
erik.norgaard - 2012-07-06 2:45 PM

You should hit the lap button. It's that simple.

The 910xt will correctly identify rest intervals and swims and separate each sprint or whatever you're doing, and it will count pool lengths correctly, when you hit the lap button, the watch assume you're at the wall. Check this workout: http://connect.garmin.com/activity/193960561

I have two screens, one showing total time and distance the other showing current lap time and lengths. So if I loose count I can glance at it. The only thing that I find annoying or haven't figured how to configure is how long the lap time is shown after you hit the lap button. By default it's 10sec, but if I want 10sec rest I need to see the count down.

And then, I'd like to be able to edit the data because for obvious reasons it won't identify kick sets.

Cheers, Erik

 

+1 all you have to do his hit lap.

2012-07-06 3:01 PM
in reply to: #4297715

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Subject: RE: 910xt swim mode - lap vs start/stop?
Awesome, thanks! I'll play with it tonight for my swim.
2012-07-06 5:37 PM
in reply to: #4297822

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Subject: RE: 910xt swim mode - lap vs start/stop?
Yes hit lap.  I've even done kick sets and it still recognizes it as a rest. 


2012-07-06 8:30 PM
in reply to: #4297715

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Subject: RE: 910xt swim mode - lap vs start/stop?
I agree that using the lap button is best, but the unit will do a reasonable job of just calculating when you are moving and stopped. In other words, try a workout or at least some segments without pushing any buttons and then view the results online after syncing. I've found that it does a pretty good job, especially after this latest firmware update.
2012-07-06 9:03 PM
in reply to: #4297715

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Subject: RE: 910xt swim mode - lap vs start/stop?
Ok, what am I doing wrong? Or does it always just include the rest times into your average for 100m??

http://connect.garmin.com/activity/196433543

2012-07-07 4:11 AM
in reply to: #4298490

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Subject: RE: 910xt swim mode - lap vs start/stop?

For bike and run the garmin registeres avg. pace and avg. moving pace, not so in the swim mode, it's just the average pace - including rest. I think it's really a missing feature on the webpage, I'm not sure if this is calculated in the watch. 

Anyway, what's interesting is to look at your splits. If you do sets of say 8x50 or whatever, using the lap button you get an easy overview of splits, see if you are able to do negative split on the set etc. 

As other post mentions, if you don't hit any buttons at all it will identify rest and intervals too, as you can see in your 3rd interval, click intervals you can expand the 3rd. But doing this has two disadvantages: You don't get instant feedback on splits in the pool, nor in the details or summary on garmin connect and everything is collapsed into one interval. 

BR, Erik

2012-07-07 7:24 AM
in reply to: #4298490

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Subject: RE: 910xt swim mode - lap vs start/stop?

LastLaugh - 2012-07-06 10:03 PM Ok, what am I doing wrong? Or does it always just include the rest times into your average for 100m?? http://connect.garmin.com/activity/196433543

 

That was resolved in the Firmware update 2.5.

 

2012-07-07 7:31 AM
in reply to: #4297715

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Subject: RE: 910xt swim mode - lap vs start/stop?
You can hit start/stop, I do because if I'm grabbing water it can count an extra lap, and you still have the total time in pool if you look at elapsed time.  But to each there own so find what works for you.


2012-07-07 12:55 PM
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Subject: RE: 910xt swim mode - lap vs start/stop?
I guess I'm extra dense, I still can't quite figure out exactly what I should be hitting and when. All I know is that whatever I'm doing isn't right!
2012-07-07 5:31 PM
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Subject: RE: 910xt swim mode - lap vs start/stop?

LastLaugh - 2012-07-07 7:55 PM I guess I'm extra dense, I still can't quite figure out exactly what I should be hitting and when. All I know is that whatever I'm doing isn't right!

OK, with the different experiences and observations in previous replies:

Whatever you do, don't hit start/stop during workout. If you want data to accurately reflect what you actually did you shouldn't touch that button. No data is recorded.

Problem is of course what to do if for some reason you have to stop when you're not at the wall, well this shouldn't really happen unless you suffer a cramp or something. I'd let it run until I get to the wall, it will just record a very slow lap which is actually very true.

So then, when to hit the lap button? I see two options, and which is better depends on how you do your workouts and how you like to see data represented on Garmin connect.

1. Hit lap button every time you stop to rest and every time you start. This t is useful if you plan your workout with say, 15sec. rest between each lap, you hit the lap button as you come in and the watch start timing your rest. This has the advantage that on Garmin connect you can see the time for any given lap, be it 100m or 25m, it's easy to see lap splits without having to sum each pool length split. I Problem is that in Garmin connect you wont get sets grouped. 

2. Hit the lap button when you start each set and/or when you finish a set. This is useful if you plan your workout with time per lap+rest, e.g. you do 10x100@2:00, if you come in at 1:55 you get 5 seconds rest, if you come in at 1:50 you get 10. It also has the advantage of grouping sets in Garmin connect. So, what appears as laps is actually a set of laps. The disadvantage is that you have to sum each pool length to get actual lap times.

If you don't do sets of say 10x100 or 8x25 or whatever, option 1 makes most sense. Hit the lap button when you stop to rest and when you start to swim .... and don't rest half way.

Whichever of the two you choose, be consistent. And never hit start/stop during a workout.

Cheers, Erik

2015-09-29 1:49 AM
in reply to: LastLaugh


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Subject: RE: 910xt swim mode - lap vs start/stop?
Originally posted by LastLaugh

I just got the 910xt a couple days ago and only swam with it once (which I royally messed up with my mis-use of buttons) so I'm not quite getting the best way to work it.

My workout is a slow warmup, then some drills, then some sprints, then longer swim, then a cool down. There are rest periods in between a lot of it. I'm not quite sure when I should be hitting start/stop versus lap. For instance - when I'm doing the sprints I have a 30 second rest period in between. If I finish a sprint and hit lap does it keep going with the timer and count the 30 second rest as part of the next sprint interval? Should I hit stop after each sprint and then start for the next one?

I'm not quite sure when I should be hitting which buttons, especially with regard to the rest periods.


This is an old post so I don't know if it is being watched but I am dealing with the same issue now.
Did you get it to work well for you?
Till now I have not been going drills with rest between laps, just sets, and in between sets I press stop and lap. Till now that seemed fine. But now I want to know the actual pace when I do a set of lap+rest and it's all messed up.
So appreciate any insights.
2015-09-29 6:48 AM
in reply to: aribloch

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Subject: RE: 910xt swim mode - lap vs start/stop?
I only use the lap button, at the beginning and end of each interval press the lap button and the watch should be able to identify what is a rest interval and what is an actual interval. Then once uploaded to Garmin connect you can see the lap times and interval times listed out. The pace shown will be without the rest times.Now with that said the transfer to BT is goofy and the rest data is lost and the time shown on your BT log includes the rest time as moving time.
2015-09-29 8:43 AM
in reply to: LastLaugh

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Subject: RE: 910xt swim mode - lap vs start/stop?
Originally posted by LastLaugh

I just got the 910xt a couple days ago and only swam with it once (which I royally messed up with my mis-use of buttons) so I'm not quite getting the best way to work it.

My workout is a slow warmup, then some drills, then some sprints, then longer swim, then a cool down. There are rest periods in between a lot of it. I'm not quite sure when I should be hitting start/stop versus lap. For instance - when I'm doing the sprints I have a 30 second rest period in between. If I finish a sprint and hit lap does it keep going with the timer and count the 30 second rest as part of the next sprint interval? Should I hit stop after each sprint and then start for the next one?

I'm not quite sure when I should be hitting which buttons, especially with regard to the rest periods.


I am curious as to the attraction of using a Garmin in the pool? I am a data guy and all that, but these wrist devices are less useful to producing effective workouts than precise use of a simple pace clock. Experienced pace clock users can accureately time themselves far better than a Garmin. And getting faster in the pool is all about accurately timing yourself.


2015-09-29 8:49 AM
in reply to: Finding Freestyle


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Subject: RE: 910xt swim mode - lap vs start/stop?
Originally posted by Finding Freestyle

I am curious as to the attraction of using a Garmin in the pool? I am a data guy and all that, but these wrist devices are less useful to producing effective workouts than precise use of a simple pace clock. Experienced pace clock users can accureately time themselves far better than a Garmin. And getting faster in the pool is all about accurately timing yourself.


It's simple. For me, I have a 910XT which I use for running and cycling, so added the swimming also. I don't see why I need a separate watch for swimming.
2015-09-29 8:54 AM
in reply to: aribloch

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Subject: RE: 910xt swim mode - lap vs start/stop?

Originally posted by aribloch
Originally posted by Finding Freestyle I am curious as to the attraction of using a Garmin in the pool? I am a data guy and all that, but these wrist devices are less useful to producing effective workouts than precise use of a simple pace clock. Experienced pace clock users can accureately time themselves far better than a Garmin. And getting faster in the pool is all about accurately timing yourself.
It's simple. For me, I have a 910XT which I use for running and cycling, so added the swimming also. I don't see why I need a separate watch for swimming.

You don't need a separate watch, that's what Dave is saying.  The pace clock on the wall is all you really need.

2015-09-29 9:29 AM
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Subject: RE: 910xt swim mode - lap vs start/stop?
Originally posted by Finding Freestyle
I am curious as to the attraction of using a Garmin in the pool?


I am curious about why wearing a watch is so bad

I get a kick out of this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iA-kXT2H5lM

At 45seconds she says "this is a need" and "she couldn't see herself wearing a watch"

Really ?

When I swim in a group I never wear my watch. The data means far less and we have a pace clock which we may or may not use.

When I swim alone, I usually wear it. It counts my laps for me. It allows me to do 50s in a 50m pool when the clocks aren't synronized at each end. It reminds me my stroke is falling apart by showing me my stroke count. It notifies me I am at 350m when I am doing 400s and I have usually lost count by then. It allows me to compare two workouts 8 weeks apart, it allows me to try workouts by feel and see what the timing actually is. I can have it beep on 1:30 intervals so I can keep a nice even pace on a long swim.

Only downside is if the guy in the next lane hits his wrist on it. But maybe I shouldn't wear paddles.

I don't believe a person needs a watch, but I don't understand why it's such a bad thing to wear one. I think it's swimmer snobbery. If you gave swimmers a little device that clipped to their bathing suit to collect all data they would. But call it a watch and it's crap. Weird.

I think it's one of those "it's a triathlon thing" so it can't be good.

Going out and spending $400 for just swimming is silly IMO, but if you have it, why not use it ?

But it's cool to say you use the pace clock. And poopooing watches does make people sound like real swimmers :-)





Edited by marcag 2015-09-29 9:31 AM
2015-09-29 9:30 AM
in reply to: axteraa

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Subject: RE: 910xt swim mode - lap vs start/stop?
Originally posted by axteraa

Originally posted by aribloch
Originally posted by Finding Freestyle I am curious as to the attraction of using a Garmin in the pool? I am a data guy and all that, but these wrist devices are less useful to producing effective workouts than precise use of a simple pace clock. Experienced pace clock users can accureately time themselves far better than a Garmin. And getting faster in the pool is all about accurately timing yourself.
It's simple. For me, I have a 910XT which I use for running and cycling, so added the swimming also. I don't see why I need a separate watch for swimming.

You don't need a separate watch, that's what Dave is saying.  The pace clock on the wall is all you really need.

with a pace clock, how do you go back and look at the data to see where you may have faults? I am no where near being a decent swimmer, but having the ability to look at the work out data offline and see where my form started to fall a part has been a great tool. I would imagine with a pace clock all you have to review is memory and how you thought you were doing at a certain time.

I have my watch set to show total time, interval time and last interval pace. This enables me to very accurately track my rest periods, (interval time) and confirm I am hitting the correct paces (last interval pace). All of this leads to a very controlled workout, well as controlled as a poor swimmer can be ??
2015-09-29 10:27 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: 910xt swim mode - lap vs start/stop?
Why you would forget the wrist unit and rely on the pace clock is one of those "you dont know what you dont know" things. Pace clock brings a level of both SIMPLICITY and PRECISION that is not available through a wrist unit. As you progress in swimming it becomes more and more crucial to know the time from the repeat you just did, and how it compares to the others. I am talking about instantaneous precision of timing to half a second. The ability to time yourself in that manner will make you a better (faster) swimmer in a very real non hypothetical way. You can make minute corrections and actually notice immediately if things are better or worse. Swimming is game of incremental improvements. The faster you get the smaller the increments. I guarantee fiddling with buttons on your wrist diminishes your ability to improve as quickly or to the level you would otherwise.

It doesnt have anything to do with dissing it because it is a "triathlon thing". It has to do with making the most of your time and being the best you can be. I love the innovation that triathletes bring to all 3 individual sports. Unfortunately, a Garmins in the pool is a step backwards not forward.


2015-09-29 10:35 AM
in reply to: mambos

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Subject: RE: 910xt swim mode - lap vs start/stop?
Going back and "looking at the data" for swimming should essentially involve knowing what pace you hold on short rest 100s or 200s (which should be a staple of your training) Maybe a 300, 500 or 1000 for time every few months. That's your data. ALL OF IT.

Do a regluar test set of 10 x 100 on :10 - :15 fixed rest. AFAYCH As Fast As You Can Hold

If you are doing 1:23's today and in two weeks you are doing 1:22.5s, you've improved! Remember that number. That is all the data you need. There is no other data beyoind weekly yards / time that you should concern yourself with.

And if you are using your Garmin to keep track of laps for longer swims, one word.....ASSOCIATE!
2015-09-29 10:39 AM
in reply to: Finding Freestyle

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Subject: RE: 910xt swim mode - lap vs start/stop?

Originally posted by Finding Freestyle Why you would forget the wrist unit and rely on the pace clock is one of those "you dont know what you dont know" things. Pace clock brings a level of both SIMPLICITY and PRECISION that is not available through a wrist unit. As you progress in swimming it becomes more and more crucial to know the time from the repeat you just did, and how it compares to the others. I am talking about instantaneous precision of timing to half a second. The ability to time yourself in that manner will make you a better (faster) swimmer in a very real non hypothetical way. You can make minute corrections and actually notice immediately if things are better or worse. Swimming is game of incremental improvements. The faster you get the smaller the increments. I guarantee fiddling with buttons on your wrist diminishes your ability to improve as quickly or to the level you would otherwise. It doesnt have anything to do with dissing it because it is a "triathlon thing". It has to do with making the most of your time and being the best you can be. I love the innovation that triathletes bring to all 3 individual sports. Unfortunately, a Garmins in the pool is a step backwards not forward.

 

Yeah, pressing that button on a watch is super complicated and it takes so long at the end of a set. People who use watches must lose fractions of a second in recording their training time which really impacts their ability to do open water swims in triathlon. And who wants to look at their swim data over time? I only care about the instant gratification of my time being displayed on the wall for all to see. Pace clocks rule!

2015-09-29 10:43 AM
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Subject: RE: 910xt swim mode - lap vs start/stop?
Originally posted by Finding Freestyle
"you dont know what you dont know" things. Pace clock brings a level of both SIMPLICITY and PRECISION that is not available through a wrist unit.


As a kid I used a pace clock 7 days a weeks for many years. I know how to use a pace clock. It's not rocket science.
Yes it's simple and yes it precise. You can use it to help count intervals, you can peek at it during a long swim to get pace. It's easy and usually there. Everyone should know how to use one.

But you can get equal precision and simplicity with a watch. It's not better, it's not worst, it's just different. It has some advantages. People are free to associate a value to those advantages.

Know how to use both and you can get equal value out of both.

So when a person asks how to use one, the answer isn't necessarily don't use one. That's all

Edited by marcag 2015-09-29 10:53 AM
2015-09-29 11:00 AM
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Subject: RE: 910xt swim mode - lap vs start/stop?
Much respect for you my friend from that other site, but you want to wear something that you have to purchase, charge and remember to bring to the pool every time? And download. Don't lose your cable! Then you have to press buttons at the end of each swim, compromising your wall touch OR compromising your button press. You cant check splits mid swim. And you are saying that a wrist unit is equally as precise and simple as something mounted on the wall that you need only to look at?

And as far as the precision part, I have yet to find a swimmer that can use a Garmin for greater than :01 precision, while nearly anyone who uses a pace clock for a period of time can cut that about in half. The more precise your timing, the more you can discern whether subtle changes in your stroke are helping or not. .

Most of those who use Garmins usually give me a :02 - :03 range when asked about their splits. As in "I was somewhere around 1:32 - 1:35". That doesnt cut it.

I am saying that all that simplicity plus more precision will make for better swim workouts.

And yes, the answer when asked how to use one is "use the pace clock instead". Wrist units, button pressing etc etc diminish your workouts. It's subtle, but it's there.

PS - I wont get into whether some of those wrist units actually change the stroke a little bit, but I suspect they do.

Edited by Finding Freestyle 2015-09-29 11:02 AM
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