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Swim Gurus, Flip turn question: I promise not the usual debate
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| General Discussion | Triathlon Talk » Swim Gurus, Flip turn question: I promise not the usual debate | Rss Feed  |
 2012-07-10 12:15 PM |
Elite  3140    |  Subject: Swim Gurus, Flip turn question: I promise not the usual debateHoping this does not stir up the usual debate regarding flip turns I meant to ask this when I was watching the US oly trials but why when swimmers are performing the butterfly or the breast stroke they do not perform flip turns? Is there a rule regarding how you need to touch the wall in those strokes in competition? I would think especially with the butterfly that a flip turn would be just as efficient as the freestyle.
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| 2012-07-10 12:20 PM in reply to: #4303631 |
Sensei  Sin City | Subject: RE: Swim Gurus, Flip turn question: I promise not the usual debate You have to touch the wall with your hands... Just recalling, I think it's both hands at the same time at the same level as well. Edited by Kido 2012-07-10 12:22 PM |
| 2012-07-10 12:21 PM in reply to: #4303631 |
Pro 6191 | Subject: RE: Swim Gurus, Flip turn question: I promise not the usual debate Rules dictate the turns - they aren't allowed in fly or breast. for those, both hands must touch the wall at the same time before a turn. |
| 2012-07-10 12:29 PM in reply to: #4303631 |
Elite 3140 | Subject: RE: Swim Gurus, Flip turn question: I promise not the usual debate ok...thanks! |
| 2012-07-10 12:36 PM in reply to: #4303631 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: Swim Gurus, Flip turn question: I promise not the usual debate I never even thought about doing a flip turn in butterfly...that would be FUN |
| 2012-07-10 12:49 PM in reply to: #4303631 |
Melon Presser 52116 | Subject: RE: Swim Gurus, Flip turn question: I promise not the usual debate They used to not allow flip turns in backstroke either (the changeover occurred during my pool swimming career). Lots of other swim rules have changed as well. So who knows ... one day the fly/breast touch rule might too ... P.S. Generally the "reasons" (some of them are really bizarre) for why the rules are the way they are, are rooted in swim history and how the four competition strokes evolved. For example, fly is the "newest" of the four strokes and it evolved from breaststroke, and has continued to follow the same touch rules. Edited by TriAya 2012-07-10 12:51 PM |
| 2012-07-10 12:51 PM in reply to: #4303734 |
| Subject: RE: Swim Gurus, Flip turn question: I promise not the usual debate TriAya - 2012-07-10 1:49 PM one day the fly/breast touch rule might too ... They have a breast touch rule? That doesn't seem fair. |
| 2012-07-10 12:52 PM in reply to: #4303734 |
Sensei Sin City | Subject: RE: Swim Gurus, Flip turn question: I promise not the usual debate Well, techincally, I don't think there is a rule AGAINST them. But if you have to touch the wall with both hands at the same time, it put's you too close to the wall and you lose efficiency - so they just chose not to. |
| 2012-07-10 12:54 PM in reply to: #4303741 |
Melon Presser 52116 | Subject: RE: Swim Gurus, Flip turn question: I promise not the usual debate Kido - 2012-07-11 1:52 AM Well, techincally, I don't think there is a rule AGAINST them. But if you have to touch the wall with both hands at the same time, it put's you too close to the wall and you lose efficiency - so they just chose not to. Actually, you are not allowed to turn more than 90 degrees from flat during either fly or breast and only during the pushoff, so that effectively outrules a flip turn. |
| 2012-07-10 12:57 PM in reply to: #4303738 |
Member 5452 NC | Subject: RE: Swim Gurus, Flip turn question: I promise not the usual debate DanielG - 2012-07-10 1:51 PM TriAya - 2012-07-10 1:49 PM one day the fly/breast touch rule might too ... They have a breast touch rule? That doesn't seem fair. It's cool as long as it's both at the same time.
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| 2012-07-10 12:58 PM in reply to: #4303751 |
Melon Presser 52116 | Subject: RE: Swim Gurus, Flip turn question: I promise not the usual debate Goosedog - 2012-07-11 1:57 AM DanielG - 2012-07-10 1:51 PM TriAya - 2012-07-10 1:49 PM one day the fly/breast touch rule might too ... They have a breast touch rule? That doesn't seem fair. It's cool as long as it's both at the same time.
There are not enough jokes about backstroking and breaststroking in swimming! Really, there aren't! Carry on. |
| 2012-07-10 1:03 PM in reply to: #4303631 |
| New user 327 | Subject: RE: Swim Gurus, Flip turn question: I promise not the usual debate I learned the breast stroke no flip turn rule after getting DQ'd from my first race.  |
| 2012-07-10 1:09 PM in reply to: #4303734 |
Regular 1358 Jenison, MI | Subject: RE: Swim Gurus, Flip turn question: I promise not the usual debate This was changed during my high school career as well. The old backstroke turn was awkward, but it was amazing just how fast the best of the best could perform that turn.
For those who don't know, a flip turn was not allowed. You still had to touch the wall with one hand before you could turn. The turn evolved into a funky motion in which you touched the wall with an outstretched hand, and then immediately turned your body around while staying on your back. I don't even have the words to describe it but I had it down pretty well by my sophomore year. Then they allowed the flip turn...which was both a pro and con for me. It was nice because it was faster and easier, but it was easier for everyone, and took away the slight advantage you could gain from really working the old school turns.
TriAya - 2012-07-10 1:49 PM They used to not allow flip turns in backstroke either (the changeover occurred during my pool swimming career). Lots of other swim rules have changed as well. So who knows ... one day the fly/breast touch rule might too ... P.S. Generally the "reasons" (some of them are really bizarre) for why the rules are the way they are, are rooted in swim history and how the four competition strokes evolved. For example, fly is the "newest" of the four strokes and it evolved from breaststroke, and has continued to follow the same touch rules. Edited by leedyb 2012-07-10 1:11 PM |
| 2012-07-10 1:14 PM in reply to: #4303631 |
Regular 853 | Subject: RE: Swim Gurus, Flip turn question: I promise not the usual debate And as I sit here preparing the heat sheet for my daughter's teams next meet I am looking at the DQs we had at last meet. Most are from the breaststroke. Either scissoring during the kick or not doing a 2-hand touch at both walls. Mostly the DQs were from our newer swimmers. Looks like we have our work cut out for us teaching the kick and getting the kids to remember the 2-hand touch. jami |
| 2012-07-10 1:41 PM in reply to: #4303631 |
Veteran 276 | Subject: RE: Swim Gurus, Flip turn question: I promise not the usual debate If you want to see examples of the old-school backstroke turns, they are a lot like the transitions that people do in the IM to go from backstroke to breastroke, where a normal flip turn followed by the extended pushoff of the breaststroke leads to a bit of O2 deprivation, and therefor isn't performed by many swimmers (if there are any?). I'd link a quick video if I had the motivation, but I've got to leave some journey for the seekers |
| 2012-07-10 2:44 PM in reply to: #4303631 |
Extreme Veteran 635 Georgia | Subject: RE: Swim Gurus, Flip turn question: I promise not the usual debate Late to the party with this link but..Hill Taylor the dolphin. http://www.google.com/#hl=en&gs_nf=1&qe=NTAgbWV0ZXIgZG9scGhpbiByYWN... Edited by mxr746 2012-07-10 2:45 PM |
| 2012-07-10 8:47 PM in reply to: #4303631 |
Pro 6011 Camp Hill, Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Swim Gurus, Flip turn question: I promise not the usual debate I stopped swimming competitively before the backstroke turn rule changed, and back was my strongest event. The best way I can describe the old turn is to imagine going into the wall with one arm stretched out to feel for it. When your hand touches, you kicked your legs up out of the water, simultaneously dropping your shoulders, and spinning like a top 180 degrees, then dropping your feet back into the water against the wall to push off. They are a lot more fun than the current back to stomach flip. I'm not nearly as fast or consistent as I used to be, but I've demonstrated it for my son who swims, and I thought his eyes were going to pop out of his head, because it's so different from what's done now. |
| 2012-07-10 9:18 PM in reply to: #4304803 |
Veteran 120 Pennsyltucky | Subject: RE: Swim Gurus, Flip turn question: I promise not the usual debate TriMyBest - 2012-07-10 9:47 PM I stopped swimming competitively before the backstroke turn rule changed, and back was my strongest event. The best way I can describe the old turn is to imagine going into the wall with one arm stretched out to feel for it. When your hand touches, you kicked your legs up out of the water, simultaneously dropping your shoulders, and spinning like a top 180 degrees, then dropping your feet back into the water against the wall to push off. They are a lot more fun than the current back to stomach flip. I'm not nearly as fast or consistent as I used to be, but I've demonstrated it for my son who swims, and I thought his eyes were going to pop out of his head, because it's so different from what's done now. We still use this on my swim team. I have heard it called a couple of different things but locally everyone refers to it as an "Australian backstroke turn". It is still legal even for use in the I.M. where the backstroke flip turm is not allowed (for the backstroke to breaststroke transition). |
| 2012-07-10 9:54 PM in reply to: #4303788 |
Champion 10471 Dallas, TX | Subject: RE: Swim Gurus, Flip turn question: I promise not the usual debate leedyb - 2012-07-10 1:09 PM This was changed during my high school career as well. The old backstroke turn was awkward, but it was amazing just how fast the best of the best could perform that turn.
For those who don't know, a flip turn was not allowed. You still had to touch the wall with one hand before you could turn. The turn evolved into a funky motion in which you touched the wall with an outstretched hand, and then immediately turned your body around while staying on your back. I don't even have the words to describe it but I had it down pretty well by my sophomore year. Then they allowed the flip turn...which was both a pro and con for me. It was nice because it was faster and easier, but it was easier for everyone, and took away the slight advantage you could gain from really working the old school turns.
TriAya - 2012-07-10 1:49 PM They used to not allow flip turns in backstroke either (the changeover occurred during my pool swimming career). Lots of other swim rules have changed as well. So who knows ... one day the fly/breast touch rule might too ... P.S. Generally the "reasons" (some of them are really bizarre) for why the rules are the way they are, are rooted in swim history and how the four competition strokes evolved. For example, fly is the "newest" of the four strokes and it evolved from breaststroke, and has continued to follow the same touch rules. Oh yeah, that new backstroke flip turn screwed me big time. I hate to count my strokes from the flags, flip on my belly to do a flip turn, and come out on my back. Typically I would flip and not have the wall for my feet. Then I had to scull backwards to push off the wall. The death of me. |
| 2012-07-11 7:14 AM in reply to: #4304911 |
Member 39 | Subject: RE: Swim Gurus, Flip turn question: I promise not the usual debate KSH - 2012-07-10 10:54 PM Oh yeah, that new backstroke flip turn screwed me big time. I hate to count my strokes from the flags, flip on my belly to do a flip turn, and come out on my back. Typically I would flip and not have the wall for my feet. Then I had to scull backwards to push off the wall. The death of me.
At least you didn't misjudge the other way and end up kissing the wall after turning over onto your stomach |
| 2012-07-11 7:23 AM in reply to: #4303631 |
Extreme Veteran 929 , Kobenhavns Kommune | Subject: RE: Swim Gurus, Flip turn question: I promise not the usual debate FELTGood - 2012-07-10 7:15 PM I meant to ask this when I was watching the US oly trials but why when swimmers are performing the butterfly or the breast stroke they do not perform flip turns? Is there a rule regarding how you need to touch the wall in those strokes in competition? I would think especially with the butterfly that a flip turn would be just as efficient as the freestyle. In breast stroke and butterfly you have to touch the wall with both hands at the same time and at the same level before the turn. It actually comes very natural in these styles. Some years ago the backstroke flip turn was permitted. Previously you had to touch first with the hand and turn remaining on your back. And btw. freestyle actually means that any style is permitted. Most swimmers swim crawl being the fastest style, and freestyle has become synonymous with crawl, but you will not be DQ'ed for swimming breast or back stroke or any combination, doing any kind of turn etc. |
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