General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Running soreness/ running volume. Rss Feed  
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2012-08-11 10:46 PM

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Subject: Running soreness/ running volume.

I've only been running for about a year (I'm 49) so running is new and I have no running experience to fall back on.

I ran a Half Mary (2:12) in June and I'm working up to a HIM on September 30th.

My goal is to finish with plenty of margin for unexpected...aiming for 6:30 to 7 hrs.

I'm not having any problems with the bike or swim, but the runs seem really hard,...

After almost all of my runs the next day I'm sore enough that  I have a hard time on stairs, and my walking gait is not normal.  I'm barely back to walking normally when the next run in my plan comes up....

I'm Doing:

Sun: long bike  OWS Swim

Mon Long Run

Tue Swim and Short  Bike

Wed Short Run

Thr Swim Med Bike

Friday Med Run

Sat Rest

 

The run volume in the plan for the balance of the 7 wks

Wk 7: 10.2, 5.1 and 7.6mi

Wk 6: 11.3 ,5.7 and 8.5mi

Wk 5: 7.1, 5.3,3.5 (recovery)

wk 4: 11.8,5.9,8.8

Wk 3: 13.1 6.5 9.8 (peak)

Wk 2:9.2 4.6, 6.9 (Taper 1)

Wk 1: 4.8, 2,2 (Taper 2)r45 

This is a custom BT Gold plan and it has shorter long runs, but a lot more total volume than the Galloway plan I did for my Half Mary. Combined with swimming and biking do I really need to be doing more running for a HIM than for a standalone Half Mary?

Any thoughts or comments?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



2012-08-11 10:56 PM
in reply to: #4358997

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Subject: RE: Running soreness/ running volume.

It may not be the best preparation for the actual 13.1 in terms of long runs, but I have found that I can manage a lot more volume if it's broken up into more days.  Looking at your weekly running plans, it seems that your long run is over 40% of your total weekly mileage at times, which is quite a bit.

For what it's worth, I run 35mpw.  Sometimes a little more.  I run 7 days a week, and the longest runs I do are usually 10 miles or less (I also am training for HIM distance.)

2012-08-11 11:51 PM
in reply to: #4358997

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Subject: RE: Running soreness/ running volume.

Galloway plans are very low-mileage. They are meant to just get you through a standalone run race on a run/walk ratio.

So solid training for the HM portion of a HIM does take more running.

I agree that it's wiser to break it up into more frequent runs, especially if you're having trouble with soreness, and I'd also slow the running down.

Did you do the Galloway plan on a run/walk ratio as recommended and go to straight running with the BT custom plan?

2012-08-12 12:08 AM
in reply to: #4359034

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Subject: RE: Running soreness/ running volume.

I'm running the milage in the BT plan, but I'm keeping the Galloway Run/Walk ratio.

3:1 or 4:1 depeding on the desired pace.

The Half Mary I did I ran 4:1 and the effective pace was right at 10min/mi.

I'm planing 2:15 to 2:30 for my HIM run time and most of my training runs have been

around that pace.

2012-08-12 3:37 AM
in reply to: #4358997

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Subject: RE: Running soreness/ running volume.

A couple of thoughts--

*Agree that putting all the mileage into three days might be causing problems. Probably better to break it up into 4-5 runs. I've been running forever, but I still find that 4-5 runs a week work best for me, for any run or tri distance. 6-7 and I start to get sore and break down, but compressing the mileage into only 3 runs makes every run harder on your body. Keep the long run but split the remainder into 3-4 rather than 2 runs.

*Maybe try switching your long run and long bike, at least on alternate weeks. It looks like you are always doing the long run the day after the long bike. Not surprised you find it hard to complete the runs and recover. What about:

Friday: rest (or swim-only)

Saturday: long run and possibly swim as recovery

Sunday: long bike, possibly with a short run after

Monday: swim only, or swim and short bike

I guess this would then have you running Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday, or maybe only two of those if Sunday was a brick.

I know everyone has different real-world constraints on their training so this might not be doable. I found this pattern worked well for me when I was training for my HIM this year in terms of preventing undue soreness and helping recovery.

*Is it possible for you to do some of your running on a softer surface like grass, trails, or wood chips? I find this really helps minimize soreness for me.

*Following running with swimming seems to really aid recovery. I don't know what your pool access is like but if you can arrange for swim workouts on run days, or even just jump in for a relaxing 10-15 minute splash, it will help refresh your legs.

Hope some of this is useful!



Edited by Hot Runner 2012-08-12 3:41 AM
2012-08-12 1:32 PM
in reply to: #4358997

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Subject: RE: Running soreness/ running volume.

I just wanted to chime in that I switched running shoes a few months ago, and it made a HUGE difference in soreness/tiredness of my feet.

I also switched to using better shoes for every day, and am also gonna get some decent ortho footwear for wearing around the house. Normally I go barefoot, but I think i need a bit more stability. 

I also try to sit as often as possible with my feet elevated.

I've come to pamper them.. a lot..



2012-08-12 2:16 PM
in reply to: #4358997

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Subject: RE: Running soreness/ running volume.

That run mileage looks pretty reasonable to me for a HIM. It would actually be low for a standalone half marathon, even for a noncompetitive runner, but for a HIM it seems exactly right for someone aiming to finish the run without walking.

 

If you're aiming to run-walk the HIM though, I'm sure you could do less. You'll just go slower on the run, probably by a fair amount.


If your bike ability is up to par, that run volume should get you through the run on a steady trot without walking.

 

You may be tired as that plan does seem advanced for you given that you have no running background and actually ran LESS mileage for your standalone half marathon. Usually folks have run more mileage (often a lot more) than their triathlon mileage for pure standalone running events, so if you haven't even exceeded the triathlon plan running, it's going to be a butt kicker. 

 

On the bright side, if you survive the training without getting injured, you'll have a much, much better race than had you not done the volume. Keep it slow and aerobic and keep at it.

2012-08-12 2:21 PM
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Subject: RE: Running soreness/ running volume.
I agree with the others about splitting the run volume into more runs.  Even a 4th run that holds some of that volume.  The down side of the extra run is that you will have at least one back-to-back run day.  Another thing I'll throw out there is if you want to keep it at three runs, consider adding in some deep-water aquajogging on your non-run days.  I've found that can help loosen up sore running legs.  For many people taking up running at an age beyond their physical prime, it can take a long time for the body to really adjust to it.  Think years (as in multiple), not months or weeks.
2012-08-16 9:34 AM
in reply to: #4358997

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Subject: RE: Running soreness/ running volume.

My guess from the information you have presented is that you are doig your runs, especially your long runs, way too fast.  A few points

-you are doing your long runs basically at race pace- try backing off that a bunch

-in general most people do their runs, especially their long runs, way too fast- this doesnt help with fitness much, and, as you are expereiencing, makes recovery very hard.

-generally, go for long runs as slow, and save your fast for your speed workout days- if you do your long runs slower, you can do your speed days faster (better recovered) and that is net net much faster.

2012-08-16 10:42 AM
in reply to: #4358997

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Subject: RE: Running soreness/ running volume.
i would look at the long run day after long bike? That would make my legs tired too.
2012-08-16 10:31 PM
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Subject: RE: Running soreness/ running volume.
I have to agree with a few points...one is maybe varying the days you do your runs, maybe put your long run on friday instead of mon.  this will give you a good three days till your next scheduled run.  short run on monday as a short recovery day from the long bike and OWS sun.  I find 2 hard days in a row regardless of S/B/R im cashed out for 2 days before i start feeling fresh again.  two is pace.  if you are finding you are not fully recovered from your runs 2 days or 3 days after you may be going at too quick of a pace too often.  Three is breaking it up.  I believe you have to have that long run build in but you may find you can actually increase your milage a little by doing 4 days of running.  where instead of doing one 8-9 mile run, you can do two runs at 5 or 6 miles.   


2012-08-17 4:01 AM
in reply to: #4358997

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Master
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Subject: RE: Running soreness/ running volume.
Run soreness generally occurs when an individual run involves an unusual stress on your body, either in terms of distance or intensity. With more frequent running, or lower intensity running, the stresses of individual runs are lower. If your regular runs are making it difficulty for you to climb stairs, etc., then that's not good. Try to include some shorter runs in your plan, and try to dial things back a little in terms of intensity. I get sore after a hard/long race, and I get sore when I resume running after a layoff, but right now my 50-60 miles per week of marathon-build training is yielding almost no soreness at all, as the individual runs are not an unusual stress for my body.
2012-08-17 10:06 AM
in reply to: #4359038

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Subject: RE: Running soreness/ running volume.
pbreed - 2012-08-11 11:08 PM

I'm running the milage in the BT plan, but I'm keeping the Galloway Run/Walk ratio.

3:1 or 4:1 depeding on the desired pace.

The Half Mary I did I ran 4:1 and the effective pace was right at 10min/mi.

I'm planing 2:15 to 2:30 for my HIM run time and most of my training runs have been

around that pace.

There's your problem. You're doing all your running at race pace.. No wonder you get sore.Does your plan tell you to do all your runs at race pace? Most plan I've seen have the long runs done at 60-90 seconds per mile slower than race pace. Training is all about developing endurance, not hammering yourself into the ground all the time.
2012-08-17 11:06 AM
in reply to: #4358997

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Subject: RE: Running soreness/ running volume.
X2 on moving your long run and long bike further apart if possible. I realize I'm lucky to be able to have my long run on Sat. and my long bike on Wed. with Friday either completely off or only swimming so it's an easy day on my legs.
2012-08-17 11:15 AM
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Subject: RE: Running soreness/ running volume.
Agree with the others -- not enough frequency and too much intensity.  You shouldn't be sore like that on a regular basis (or even very often at all, apart from after a race and perhaps a few key workouts).
2012-08-17 5:07 PM
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Subject: RE: Running soreness/ running volume.

>There's your problem. You're doing all your running at race pace.. No wonder you get sore.Does your plan tell you to do all >your runs at race pace? Most plan I've seen have the long runs done at 60-90 seconds per mile slower than race pace. >Training is all about developing endurance, not hammering yourself into the ground all the time.

Clearly this is my problem... alas there are several things going on here....

1)The HIM plan I'm following assumes a normal running plan I'm doing the galloway method (Found that worked much better for me when learning to run before starting HIM training.) so my normal runs look a lot like the interval work in the HIM plan... run rest run...  so at some level the short and long runs look almost identical....not really changing the intensity much...   

2)Though about using the Galloway half plan for the run and the HIM plan for bike swim... alas the feedback seems to be that the milage is not enough for a HIM, but it was fine for the half mary....

3)I'm new to endurance sports and holding back is just counter to my personal ethos do everything worth doing at 100%, I realize this is wrong for an endurance sport... knowing its wrong and changing personal behavior is not always easy.

4)I seem to have a natural runnign pace, the pace where my body feels comfortable with the run motion of about 8:30 to 9 /mi.  I'm not strong enough to maintain this pace for significant distance.  Hence I do run/walk... if I leave the run walk ratio the same and try to slow down the run, it just feels ackward and uncomfortable.  So clearly I need to slow down...

This is complicated by the fact that on this weeks long run, Monday I over did it and pulled a hamstring/glute... so I'm sitting out this week, hope to start again on Monday, will shuffle my run schedule to make short run on Monday, Med on wed, and long on Friday, maybe try to split the Medium into two short runs...

 

 

 



2012-08-17 9:23 PM
in reply to: #4358997

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Subject: RE: Running soreness/ running volume.
You really only have about three weeks of solid training left. It may be best to just keep doing what you've been doing. See how the race goes. Train in a different manner for the next one.Are you also going at a hard effort in all your swim and bike training?
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General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Running soreness/ running volume. Rss Feed