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2012-12-03 9:48 PM


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Subject: beginner, intermediate, advanced..

I started doing triathlons last March. I did not know how to swim, had rode less than 100 miles on a bike in my entire life, but was a collegiate runner.

 

I decided to switch over to triathlon and on my first olympic after about a month of on and off training I was able to 2:41 on an accurately measured course. This was in April. Over this past summer, I averaged about 60 miles on the bike, 40 miles running, and 2-3 miles swimming. I didn't really do any workouts. It was more just me blindly doing whatever I felt like doing every morning. About five weeks ago I went 2:11 on another accurately measured course.

 

What I want to know is how competitive I am, what you consider me (beginner, intermediate, advanced) capability wise. And what I should be trying to accomplish to do a sub 2:05 olympic by April. 

My PRs are:

26:30-1500 meter swim (open water in triathlon)

1:06:16 40k bike (during triathlon on relatively flat course)

40:13 (during triathlon on relatively flat course)

Side note: My prs for 5k/10k on track/road/xc course are 16:43 and 36:01. I haven't quite figured out how to run off the bike yet.



2012-12-03 10:06 PM
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Subject: RE: beginner, intermediate, advanced..

That's a pretty good swim time for having never swum competitively. In fact that's a pretty good Olympic distance time period!

The "advanced" go sub-2hrs, so you're in the top end of the intermediate olympic distance finishers. Beginner is probably post 2:40.

Considering your time drops on the swim you probably have about 4-5 minutes you could drop with a structured swim program, doing 3-4k yards per session 4-5 times a week. (In another 4-5 months maybe?) Another 4-5 minutes by increasing your bike speed from 22mph to 24mph, which aggressively could be done in 16 weeks; I've read of some pretty crazy gains up to 3mph with Jorge's Winter Cycling program under similar testing conditions.

Turn your bike workouts into brick sessions. Every time you get done with your bike workout do 2-4 miles of running and it'll make the transition a lot smoother. You can probably shave 2:00 by getting used to stretching out of the anvil-leg feeling.

I'm sure I can easily get shot down by a coach here for throwing around numbers like I know what I'm talking about (I'm pulling these numbers out of my bum). I certainly don't, but I wouldn't be surprised if your next olympic distance you'd be able to break 2:05 with a bike/swim focused plan.

Edit: Your times add up to 2:16:xx for an olympic distance not including transitions. Do you mean 2:21?



Edited by odpaul7 2012-12-03 10:10 PM
2012-12-03 11:32 PM
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Subject: RE: beginner, intermediate, advanced..
odpaul7 - 2012-12-03 10:06 PM

That's a pretty good swim time for having never swum competitively. In fact that's a pretty good Olympic distance time period!

The "advanced" go sub-2hrs, so you're in the top end of the intermediate olympic distance finishers. Beginner is probably post 2:40.

Considering your time drops on the swim you probably have about 4-5 minutes you could drop with a structured swim program, doing 3-4k yards per session 4-5 times a week. (In another 4-5 months maybe?) Another 4-5 minutes by increasing your bike speed from 22mph to 24mph, which aggressively could be done in 16 weeks; I've read of some pretty crazy gains up to 3mph with Jorge's Winter Cycling program under similar testing conditions.

Turn your bike workouts into brick sessions. Every time you get done with your bike workout do 2-4 miles of running and it'll make the transition a lot smoother. You can probably shave 2:00 by getting used to stretching out of the anvil-leg feeling.

I'm sure I can easily get shot down by a coach here for throwing around numbers like I know what I'm talking about (I'm pulling these numbers out of my bum). I certainly don't, but I wouldn't be surprised if your next olympic distance you'd be able to break 2:05 with a bike/swim focused plan.

Edit: Your times add up to 2:16:xx for an olympic distance not including transitions. Do you mean 2:21?

I got 2:13.....did you mean 2:18?  LMAO

2012-12-04 12:45 AM
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Subject: RE: beginner, intermediate, advanced..
WolverinesTri - 2012-12-03 8:48 PM

I started doing triathlons last March. I did not know how to swim, had rode less than 100 miles on a bike in my entire life, but was a collegiate runner.

 

I decided to switch over to triathlon and on my first olympic after about a month of on and off training I was able to 2:41 on an accurately measured course. This was in April. Over this past summer, I averaged about 60 miles on the bike, 40 miles running, and 2-3 miles swimming. I didn't really do any workouts. It was more just me blindly doing whatever I felt like doing every morning. About five weeks ago I went 2:11 on another accurately measured course.

 

What I want to know is how competitive I am, what you consider me (beginner, intermediate, advanced) capability wise. And what I should be trying to accomplish to do a sub 2:05 olympic by April. 

My PRs are:

26:30-1500 meter swim (open water in triathlon)

1:06:16 40k bike (during triathlon on relatively flat course)

40:13 (during triathlon on relatively flat course)

Side note: My prs for 5k/10k on track/road/xc course are 16:43 and 36:01. I haven't quite figured out how to run off the bike yet.

You are a Beginner in terms of experience but Intermediate to Adv with ability. Your open run times aren't out of this world fast, but you should be able to run low 37s off the bike eventually.

Spend less time running - 30 miles per week. Spend the extra hour in the pool. Get some swim help in terms of technique and that should help. If you are going 2:16 now, then sub 2:10 is within your reach by middle of 2013.

Lots to work on here and if you put the time in (less running, more swimming) you'll be really flying in 6-8 months.

2012-12-04 12:50 AM
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Subject: RE: beginner, intermediate, advanced..
mikericci - 2012-12-04 12:45 AM
WolverinesTri - 2012-12-03 8:48 PM

I started doing triathlons last March. I did not know how to swim, had rode less than 100 miles on a bike in my entire life, but was a collegiate runner.

 

I decided to switch over to triathlon and on my first olympic after about a month of on and off training I was able to 2:41 on an accurately measured course. This was in April. Over this past summer, I averaged about 60 miles on the bike, 40 miles running, and 2-3 miles swimming. I didn't really do any workouts. It was more just me blindly doing whatever I felt like doing every morning. About five weeks ago I went 2:11 on another accurately measured course.

 

What I want to know is how competitive I am, what you consider me (beginner, intermediate, advanced) capability wise. And what I should be trying to accomplish to do a sub 2:05 olympic by April. 

My PRs are:

26:30-1500 meter swim (open water in triathlon)

1:06:16 40k bike (during triathlon on relatively flat course)

40:13 (during triathlon on relatively flat course)

Side note: My prs for 5k/10k on track/road/xc course are 16:43 and 36:01. I haven't quite figured out how to run off the bike yet.

You are a Beginner in terms of experience but Intermediate to Adv with ability. Your open run times aren't out of this world fast, but you should be able to run low 37s off the bike eventually.

Spend less time running - 30 miles per week. Spend the extra hour in the pool. Get some swim help in terms of technique and that should help. If you are going 2:16 now, then sub 2:10 is within your reach by middle of 2013.

Lots to work on here and if you put the time in (less running, more swimming) you'll be really flying in 6-8 months.

I know that is right for "kids"....does that work the same for adults?  I always think, as a 50+ year old man, that my best use of time is running.  Is that thinking wrong?

2012-12-04 6:21 AM
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Subject: RE: beginner, intermediate, advanced..
You clearly have a good deal of promise. What AG are you in, and what is your current bike set-up (road/tri, good aero position)? Are your training hours already maxed out?


2012-12-04 6:35 AM
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Subject: RE: beginner, intermediate, advanced..
Left Brain - 2012-12-03 11:50 PM
mikericci - 2012-12-04 12:45 AM
WolverinesTri - 2012-12-03 8:48 PM

I started doing triathlons last March. I did not know how to swim, had rode less than 100 miles on a bike in my entire life, but was a collegiate runner.

 

I decided to switch over to triathlon and on my first olympic after about a month of on and off training I was able to 2:41 on an accurately measured course. This was in April. Over this past summer, I averaged about 60 miles on the bike, 40 miles running, and 2-3 miles swimming. I didn't really do any workouts. It was more just me blindly doing whatever I felt like doing every morning. About five weeks ago I went 2:11 on another accurately measured course.

 

What I want to know is how competitive I am, what you consider me (beginner, intermediate, advanced) capability wise. And what I should be trying to accomplish to do a sub 2:05 olympic by April. 

My PRs are:

26:30-1500 meter swim (open water in triathlon)

1:06:16 40k bike (during triathlon on relatively flat course)

40:13 (during triathlon on relatively flat course)

Side note: My prs for 5k/10k on track/road/xc course are 16:43 and 36:01. I haven't quite figured out how to run off the bike yet.

You are a Beginner in terms of experience but Intermediate to Adv with ability. Your open run times aren't out of this world fast, but you should be able to run low 37s off the bike eventually.

Spend less time running - 30 miles per week. Spend the extra hour in the pool. Get some swim help in terms of technique and that should help. If you are going 2:16 now, then sub 2:10 is within your reach by middle of 2013.

Lots to work on here and if you put the time in (less running, more swimming) you'll be really flying in 6-8 months.

I know that is right for "kids"....does that work the same for adults?  I always think, as a 50+ year old man, that my best use of time is running.  Is that thinking wrong?

Like anything, it depends on what your strength is. This OP's strength is running. Swimming is his weakness.

Here's something we use at D3, called Sport Rotation. I've been doing this for over 20 years. It works.
http://d3multisport.com/season-planning/sport-rotation-in-triathlon-getting-through-a-plateau/



Edited by mikericci 2012-12-04 6:36 AM
2012-12-04 7:41 AM
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Subject: RE: beginner, intermediate, advanced..
mikericci - 2012-12-04 2:45 AM

You are a Beginner in terms of experience but Intermediate to Adv with ability. Your open run times aren't out of this world fast, but you should be able to run low 37s off the bike eventually.

Spend less time running - 30 miles per week. Spend the extra hour in the pool. Get some swim help in terms of technique and that should help. If you are going 2:16 now, then sub 2:10 is within your reach by middle of 2013.

Lots to work on here and if you put the time in (less running, more swimming) you'll be really flying in 6-8 months.



I agree with Mike; a strong focus in the pool and you can shave off some serious time on the swim leg and also exit the water having spent less energy (especially if you can catch one of the faster packs).

FWIW my first oly distance was a 30ish swim and when I was still training seriously, I was swimming 22:2x in the pool and high 22, low 23 in oly distance events. The difference was lots of swimming with faster swimmers and a coach on deck.

Bike fitness and/or position also likely has room for improvement - I would guess that with some solid bike training and cleaning up your position/setup you could likely be riding around an hour and setting up a strong run off the bike.

Shane
2012-12-04 8:20 AM
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Subject: RE: beginner, intermediate, advanced..

Your off to a great start. 

Running well off the bike is all about pacing on the bike.  If you cook it on the bike, you will pay for it on the run.  Since you already have a good running base to work from, your best bet is to improve your bike fitness and learn how to pace. 

If you can, look to do a few blocks of bike focus this winter to build your FTP.  A plan like Jorge's winter program is a good way to do this.  Plan on riding 3-4 times a week during this cycle. 

As a beginner swimmer, you will likely see the biggest gains in swimming by improving your form.  If you have access to a masters swim program, I would also look at doing that a few times a week.  If that isnt an option, see if you can find some swim lessons or someone who can help you with your form.  The rest is all about quality time in the pool.  Intervals are key.  Ex. See how many 100's you can do at race pace (or slightly above) with 15-20 seconds rest between them.  Each week, add a few more intervals.  Get to the point where you can do 20-30 100's at race pace.

2012-12-04 9:39 AM
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Subject: RE: beginner, intermediate, advanced..

Interesting perspective from Mike and Shane.  They know what they are talking about and although I defer to their expertise, I'll offer up another point of view.

Honestly, I would have said to focus on the bike.  1:06 on a relatively flat course could easily turn into 1:01...The fact you rode a 1:06 and failed to run to your capability suggests to me a pretty big weakness on the bike.  From that perspective I'd look to add load to the bike with the goal of riding a couple minutes faster and being able to run a couple minutes faster for a greater overall time savings.

I say this as a pretty mediocre swimmer who picked it up when I was 30...adding 1 more swim a week really doesn't help me one I get down to a certain speed around where you are.  I would need a coach and I would need masters and probably swim 5x a week to really see a noticeable improvement...but you may have easier gains and it probably depends how much you've already tried to work on it.

2012-12-04 9:55 AM
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Subject: RE: beginner, intermediate, advanced..
WolverinesTri - 2012-12-03 9:48 PM

Side note: My prs for 5k/10k on track/road/xc course are 16:43 and 36:01.

what event(s) did you run in college?



2012-12-04 10:45 AM
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Subject: RE: beginner, intermediate, advanced..
acumenjay - 2012-12-04 11:39 AM

Interesting perspective from Mike and Shane. They know what they are talking about and although I defer to their expertise, I'll offer up another point of view.


I wasn't trying to say the bike wasn't important, in fact I think that dropping 6 minutes off the bike is very doable simply with a little structure to bike training. However, I also think that getting out of the water 3-4 minutes faster is also a very attainable goal and I don't think the benefit of being out of the water quicker, hopefully after drafting with a solid group, and out on the bike with that group and being able to use them for pacing should be overlooked. So while the swim would be a key, especially for most of the winter, I would also have the OP doing some solid riding and dialing in of position.

Honestly, I would have said to focus on the bike.  1:06 on a relatively flat course could easily turn into 1:01...The fact you rode a 1:06 and failed to run to your capability suggests to me a pretty big weakness on the bike.  From that perspective I'd look to add load to the bike with the goal of riding a couple minutes faster and being able to run a couple minutes faster for a greater overall time savings.


Doing some (very) rough calculations, I would guess that with that 10k speed, the OP should be able to build their FTP up to about 4.5W/kg - assuming that they are probably pretty light, that would give an FTP of about 300W. Even at 90% of that, they should be able to bang out a 60 minute 40km with a pretty medicore position and equipment.

So, if the OP is out of the water in 23, off the bike in 60 and runs closer to potential (say mid-37), then all of the sudden they are sniffing at sub-2:00.

Shane
2012-12-04 1:55 PM
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Subject: RE: beginner, intermediate, advanced..

gsmacleod - 2012-12-04 9:45 AM
acumenjay - 2012-12-04 11:39 AM Interesting perspective from Mike and Shane. They know what they are talking about and although I defer to their expertise, I'll offer up another point of view.
I wasn't trying to say the bike wasn't important, in fact I think that dropping 6 minutes off the bike is very doable simply with a little structure to bike training. However, I also think that getting out of the water 3-4 minutes faster is also a very attainable goal and I don't think the benefit of being out of the water quicker, hopefully after drafting with a solid group, and out on the bike with that group and being able to use them for pacing should be overlooked. So while the swim would be a key, especially for most of the winter, I would also have the OP doing some solid riding and dialing in of position.
Honestly, I would have said to focus on the bike.  1:06 on a relatively flat course could easily turn into 1:01...The fact you rode a 1:06 and failed to run to your capability suggests to me a pretty big weakness on the bike.  From that perspective I'd look to add load to the bike with the goal of riding a couple minutes faster and being able to run a couple minutes faster for a greater overall time savings.
Doing some (very) rough calculations, I would guess that with that 10k speed, the OP should be able to build their FTP up to about 4.5W/kg - assuming that they are probably pretty light, that would give an FTP of about 300W. Even at 90% of that, they should be able to bang out a 60 minute 40km with a pretty medicore position and equipment. So, if the OP is out of the water in 23, off the bike in 60 and runs closer to potential (say mid-37), then all of the sudden they are sniffing at sub-2:00. Shane

I agree with this 100%. However, if you want to race a triathlon the best you can, it starts with the swim. I stand by that. If you want to be a good biker/runner and chase people the entire day and at every race, then give the bike the higher priority.

If you think I'm disregarding the bike, look no further than USAT Collegiate Nationals in 2011 and 2012 and you'll see our team members at the top of the bike rankings, after a solid swim. They also followed up with great runs. BUT, we start with a huge swim focus. Like I said, and not to beat a dead, horse, that's how it all begins.

2012-12-04 3:15 PM
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Subject: RE: beginner, intermediate, advanced..

Mike I don't think you disregard the bike.  I actually agree with you.  I just wanted to be clear that he's also giving up 5 minutes on the bike that he should be able to overcome based on his background...and probably pretty quickly since he just started.

From some of the fast local guys here, I know one ran in college and then got into Tris and my old coach had him busting a** getting his swim up so he could make a run at ITU and now he wins everything with a fop swim and fop run.  His bike would probably hurts him the most (on a relative basis...still very strong) but if he gets out with the front he can stay with, but I think the focus is very similar to what you recommend....he obviously isn't interested in long course right now so bike is way less.

edit to add:  Also think it is harder for some to go to fop swimmer than fop biker from a time management standpoint...but for some that is no issue.



Edited by acumenjay 2012-12-04 3:16 PM
2012-12-04 3:21 PM
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Subject: RE: beginner, intermediate, advanced..
I watched alot of ITU racing last year....from Youth Elite, to Jr. Elite, up to the Olympic distance.  If you can't get out of the swim in or very near the first pack you are not racing.  You're just not.
2012-12-04 4:58 PM
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Subject: RE: beginner, intermediate, advanced..
acumenjay - 2012-12-04 4:15 PM

edit to add:  Also think it is harder for some to go to fop swimmer than fop biker from a time management standpoint...but for some that is no issue.

I disagree on this point.  I think there can be more gains made in less time in the water.  To get to the FOP on the bike you had better be BAD fast and if you are just getting into the sport you are playing a lot of catch up.  I think many people focus on the bike to pick up speed and cut time faster because they see the speeds (MPH) one can achieve on the bike and not look at the swim seriously enough.

I took a pretty balanced approach to all 3 disciplines from the beginning of my training 3 years ago and I guess I would say I am BOFOP in some "regional" races and FOP in local races. 

I agree with Mike and Shane start at the beginning and work there.  Where I would differ slightly would be the run volume.  I would cut it back to 25 MPW and try to pick up one extra bike.  The OP obviously has an incredibly strong run and would benefit from a slightly heavier bike too.  But it starts with the swim!

Edit:  I also can't compete with a collegiate national champion coach on the knowledge level.



Edited by DirkP 2012-12-04 5:00 PM


2012-12-06 12:06 PM
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Subject: RE: beginner, intermediate, advanced..

I will try to respond to everyone's questions. Sorry it took me so long to respond. I have finals this upcoming week and am swamped.

 

Here it goes:

 

Sorry, I mispoke. I did a 2:11 on a inaccurate course, the swim was close to 400 meters short so my swim was like 20:30. lol

My finish for an accurate course is 2:16:35.

My bike set up is a 2011 S-Work transition with SRAM Red. No aero wheel. Aero helmet. I have never been fitted for a bike.

This summer I would just ride two 25-30 mile rides a week around 18-20 miles per hour. Sometimes I would hammer for the last 2-3 miles of it and hold 24-25. 

I still am in college, however am not running collegiately anymore, but my times are as follows.

800: 1:57

1500: 4:06

5k: 16:43 (track), 17:10 (XC)

10k: 36:01 (track), 

Half marathon: 1:21:37 (Not really racing)

Most proud of our 4x800-7:36 (If you can't do the math, I was by far the weakest link. lol)

 

Also, I do not know what FTP means, nor do I have any knowledge of wattage, correct bike form, or workouts pertaining to cycling or swimming for the most part. I do however have a good knowledge of running and how to be somewhat successful in that area, although I feel like running in a triathlon requires a much different approach of that I know little about.

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