Do you believe? (Page 4)

No easy answers. My usual answer is that when I die, I  might be pleasantly surprised (while pointing up), unpleasantly surprised (while pointing down), but what I actually expect is.... nothing.

Think about it...........how can we expect "nothing"?  That doesn't fit with our existence....we always expect good or bad, depending on whatever the situation is....why would that change when we die?  To think that means this is all for nothing....and if that's the case, we are back to why do good?

That's how my thinking goes.... nothing else makes any sense to me based on what I've experienced so far.

You are right, though.....no easy answers and plenty of questions.  I see me meeting God one day and saying, "hey, wait, what about XXXXX, that was REALLY forked up." 

You are making a very common mistake. You are assuming that because you expect either good or bad, then I also have to.

As for it all meaning nothing, I suppose it depends on how you see life in general. As the end result, or the journey reaching it.

I understand.

I read the Philadelphia Grand Jury report on sexual abuse within the Church.
It's the single most revolting thing I've ever read.

I also have a close family member who was abused as a child by church elders,
although in this case it wasn't the Catholic Church.
I understand the life long wound that an abuse survivor carries.

History has many examples of where needed reform within the Church
turned into an opportunity for anti-clericalism, with results that were always
worse than the original abuses of power.

So the key question in my mind is this: is what the Church proposes true or not?
Is what she proposes about the nature of God, the nature of man, and the nature of the Church true?
If the Eucharist is truly the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ as the Church proposes,
and if we are to follow what Jesus said in John 6 as a commandment, and not just a suggestion,
or worse ignore it all together,
then that truth remains regardless of the sins of priests and bishops.

There's the story of one Philadelphia prosecutor, can't remember his name right now,
who investigated the child sexual abuse within the Church here in Philadelphia.
He had reason to spend a good amount of time during the investigation with a particularly holy priest,
who was not involved in the coverup himself, but was key to the investigation.

By the end of the long investigation, this prosecutor had decided to convert to Catholicism.
As I recall, he also allowed his daughters to attend Catholic school according to his wife's wishes
and to continue their catechesis in the Church.

It was his encounter with the truth that the Church proposes that turned his heart;
this in the midst of the uncovering of unspeakable sin by her local leaders.
That truth remains. 

I'll say a prayer for you. Please pray for me.

OP acknowledges that he in in fact aware of CoJ, and says that "noone looks over there," there being a forum with over a million total posts. Credibility still in question.  

Very happy Atheist here. 

My opinion - believe what and how you want as long as you don't try to impose your religious beliefs on me.  You can talk until you're blue in the face (or type until your fingers get all cramped up) and you won't change my mind, just as I would expect that I can't change the opinions of those that believe. 

I believe in a higher power, but the tricky part is how to even comprehend that.  The moment I begin to try and determine a higher power's plan, will, laws, etc. is the moment that it ceases to be a higher power and becomes a figment of my imagination.  I've essentially un-Godded a God.

on the edge of off topic ramblings to follow... 

What I firmly believe is that no matter if you're an atheist, a young earth creationist, or somewhere in between, the commonality of what we believe about our origins is that we all came, and are made of, the same stuff.  That means we should all love each and every person, plant, animal, grain of sand, mountain, pond, ocean, planet, and galaxy.  It should amaze you, whether you think there was a creator or not.  The diversity and vastness of this universe should astound you, and at the same time draw you closer to every person you share this little rock with.

I also believe that the story of Jesus has been corrupted by institutions for their own gain.  I do believe in him.  Not so much that he marched willingly to the cross to die so that we can all get to heaven.  He was perfect in his love for others.  He cared for the sick and mourning with no conditions.  He respected, conversed, traveled, and dined with prostitutes, beggars, thieves, the poor, the outcast, and so on.  He was perfect in how he loved others and we murdered him.  He held up a mirror to show us how completely out of whack our priorities and hearts were, and we nailed him to a cross.  Even then he felt compassion for his killers.  I believe in the life he lived as an example of how we should love others.  Not in conversion to an institutional belief, but in extending  friendship, fellowship, forgiveness, understanding, compassion, care, and concern.  Love, actually.  A lot of people would do well to stop using him as some sort of line of demarcation on whether or not you are saved or damned for all eternity.

What you wrote is a fundamental tenet of Judaism. the true nature of G-d is of being incomprehensible and unknowable. G-d is intangible, limitless, and therefore, in order to believe, you have to make what Kierkegaard called a "leap of faith"

"The leap of faith is a conception of how an individual would believe in God, or how a person would act in love. It is not a rational decision, as it is transcending rationality in favour of something more uncanny, that is, faith. As such the thought is that to have faith is at the same time to have doubt. So, for example, for one to truly have faith in God, one would also have to doubt that God exists; the doubt is the rational part of a person’s thought, without which the faith would have no real substance."

So, in a nutshell, you can choose to believe or not, it's not based in logic. And because of that dichotomy, we have doubt. And that doubt is good, because it forces us to constantly reaffirm our choices.

We are endowed with free will, either through our Creator or as a result of evolutionary processes. Either way, what is true is that you do not need religion to be a moral human being, and you do not have to be a moral human being to be religious.

What is it that holds a person to a moral standard?  I'm asking.....I don't know.  I think it's a higher power, God, whatever you want to call it.

If you behave simply to avoid punishment by or to please a higher power are you really being moral or are you being expedient?

Great point. I'd say that in the absence of belief, it doesn't matter. The outcome is the same.

Moral standard as in code of conduct?  Like "rules" to being "good?"  Institutions that scare you into thinking you need them to be saved do that.

Moral standard as in the ability to have compassion, care, concern, and love for others?  I think a higher power is involved, but could just as easily see it as some evolutionary marker that separates us from nearly every other species.  I think it's the combination of our ability to care and love coupled with all the other motor functions and brain abilities that separates us.  For example, dolphins and dogs can show compassion, but they can't do much to help another injured dolphin or dog.  In the end though, I even find my belief that there is a higher power somewhat frivolous.  There either is or isn't, and maybe I'll find out when my life ends or maybe I won't.  It holds no bearing on how I should treat others in the present.

Exactly, but you still do what's right even though it holds no bearing.  That's the point I'm trying to make.....and that leads me to believe in a greater power than man.

I do the right thing because my conscience doesn't allow me to do otherwise.  It has nothing to do with the two examples you gave.

Same here.  But at the same time, I completely understand how someone who doesn't believe in  a higher power can hold my exact same attitudes.  My emotions and love do not require the existence of a deity, but at the same time may the be the result of an existence of one.  I choose yes, some choose no.  No biggie for me because I don't believe those that say no are doomed to a post-lifetime of eternal torment.  

I agree with that.....I really couldn't care less about other's religious beliefs or non-belief....it doesn't have any bearing on my life.  I enjoy discussing the issue because I still have alot of questions. 

Couple things:

reading Coming Apart, the State of White America, which is an interesting book.  Small little bit on religion mostly about how belief is a very important aspect of a person's makeup and our current lack of belief including so called Sunday Christians or atheist Christians is part of the reason for the situation that America finds itself in.  Not really plugging the books conclusions but it is a very interesting book.

I have been reading and watching some Christopher Hitchens.  And I don't know what to say about Penn, but I suspect with that attitude Hitchens wouldn't think of him as much of an atheist.  You must understand that some atheists, the so called anti-theist, may see the truck as not only being religion but also Intellectual Design and spirituality in general or anything that could be filed under BELIEF like fairies or unicorns or angels.  So they will not be any more patient with you than they would be if you were telling them that there was a fairy on your shoulder telling you what to do each day.  They see religion as being the cause of disaster not the savior.

you cannot be serious.  Vast segments of society that follow a certain code based on a certain belief structure don't effect your life?  Religion is not just a pebble that is dropped in the ocean whose ripples are lost in the tides, it is a boulder thrown in a lake.  It touches everyone.

Exactly!

I understand that. However, does the opposite hold true? If I believe that religion is not good for you, is it ok for me to try to ""convert" you to not believing? Or can we agree that you can try, but if I let you know that I am not interested, you drop it? And the same for me?