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2013-05-16 2:08 PM
in reply to: #4745611

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Subject: RE: IM swim starts in jeopardy?
GMAN 19030 - 2013-05-16 1:55 PM

You guys still aren't getting it.  IMFL will be a mass start only.  There's no chip start.  The race starts at 7am for everybody.

Now how they will line up the various corrals to all hit the water at once has yet to be disclosed.  I would imagine some sort of column or row approach.

Maybe... sub 1 hour predictions up front at the water's edge, everybody else behind hanging out around signs with 10 minute differences.



2013-05-16 2:11 PM
in reply to: #4742079

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Subject: RE: IM swim starts in jeopardy?
LarchmontTri - 2013-05-14 1:09 PM

GMAN 19030 - 2013-05-11 10:13 AM
LarchmontTri - 2013-05-10 1:13 PM

Eliminating mass starts is not a good change and risks ruining what makes IM races so special.

Why?  You still swim 2.4 miles.  It's about 10% of your race day so I really don't see why everyone is getting their panties in a twist.

They are looking for a way to make the swim less physical, easier to rescue distressed swimmers, and "potentially" safer... and people still want to complain about it.

I'm far from a WTC apologist but everyone should thank them for trying to do the right thing and then move about with your lives.  Or you can decide to not do WTC events any longer.  You can go do Rev 3 with their mass starts... oops they don't do them either.  You can go do Challenge with their mass starts... oh yeah, they don't do them either.

WTC has been 'selling' Kona for years, and part of what they've been 'selling' is the mass start.  It what separates IM events from other events, as you point out.  And IMHO, that's what makes IM events special.  Why change the formula?  

So, for WTC now to change their approach and eliminate the mass start for a number of events makes me wonder about their brand equity and 'special' nature of their events vis a vis Rev3, Challenge, etc.  That's what I'm commenting on.  

The extra safety precautions are good ideas, I just don't like them eliminating mass starts.  

Now if we take a step back and there may be other issues at work here.  First of all, with wave starts, it's possible WTC can increase the number of athletes at each event.  So, there may be greater profits ahead as some folks have pointed out.

Second, elimination of of mass starts at LP and MT might point that LP and MT might be too small for WTC events.  Perhaps WTC is outgrowing these two venues. On the other hand, IMFL with its large beach is keeping mass starts.  Maybe WTC has to find larger swim/beach venues for mass starts.  

Third, if WTC is concerned with eliminating potential issues on the swim leg, perhaps they should (sorry, I'm not a Slowtwitcher, so please excuse me here...) change certain events to 15 hr races, like Frankfurt.  If swim fitness is a concern, then chopping off 2 hours would likely mean that the 'marginal' athlete would choose not to register for 15hr IM races.  Folks who register would have to train harder and arrive at the start line more prepared for the day ahead.  Perhaps they can keep mass starts for 15 hr events, and then have other 17hr events with wave starts?  It would create a two-tiered system, and that has its own risks, but it's an idea.  



I don't finish an IM in 15 hours or less, and it's not because I can't swim. I finish the swim in 1:15.

I am more than prepared for the swim on race day. As well as the bike and run, I'm just not that fast at those two events.

2013-05-16 11:03 PM
in reply to: #4745644

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Subject: RE: IM swim starts in jeopardy?
KSH - 2013-05-16 3:11 PM
LarchmontTri - 2013-05-14 1:09 PM
GMAN 19030 - 2013-05-11 10:13 AM
LarchmontTri - 2013-05-10 1:13 PM

Eliminating mass starts is not a good change and risks ruining what makes IM races so special.

Why?  You still swim 2.4 miles.  It's about 10% of your race day so I really don't see why everyone is getting their panties in a twist.

They are looking for a way to make the swim less physical, easier to rescue distressed swimmers, and "potentially" safer... and people still want to complain about it.

I'm far from a WTC apologist but everyone should thank them for trying to do the right thing and then move about with your lives.  Or you can decide to not do WTC events any longer.  You can go do Rev 3 with their mass starts... oops they don't do them either.  You can go do Challenge with their mass starts... oh yeah, they don't do them either.

WTC has been 'selling' Kona for years, and part of what they've been 'selling' is the mass start.  It what separates IM events from other events, as you point out.  And IMHO, that's what makes IM events special.  Why change the formula?  

So, for WTC now to change their approach and eliminate the mass start for a number of events makes me wonder about their brand equity and 'special' nature of their events vis a vis Rev3, Challenge, etc.  That's what I'm commenting on.  

The extra safety precautions are good ideas, I just don't like them eliminating mass starts.  

Now if we take a step back and there may be other issues at work here.  First of all, with wave starts, it's possible WTC can increase the number of athletes at each event.  So, there may be greater profits ahead as some folks have pointed out.

Second, elimination of of mass starts at LP and MT might point that LP and MT might be too small for WTC events.  Perhaps WTC is outgrowing these two venues. On the other hand, IMFL with its large beach is keeping mass starts.  Maybe WTC has to find larger swim/beach venues for mass starts.  

Third, if WTC is concerned with eliminating potential issues on the swim leg, perhaps they should (sorry, I'm not a Slowtwitcher, so please excuse me here...) change certain events to 15 hr races, like Frankfurt.  If swim fitness is a concern, then chopping off 2 hours would likely mean that the 'marginal' athlete would choose not to register for 15hr IM races.  Folks who register would have to train harder and arrive at the start line more prepared for the day ahead.  Perhaps they can keep mass starts for 15 hr events, and then have other 17hr events with wave starts?  It would create a two-tiered system, and that has its own risks, but it's an idea.  

I don't finish an IM in 15 hours or less, and it's not because I can't swim. I finish the swim in 1:15. I am more than prepared for the swim on race day. As well as the bike and run, I'm just not that fast at those two events.

Karen - your point is well taken.  Having said that, if an IM race is shortened to 15hrs, the swim leg would be shorter, and I would think that the 'marginal' swimmer might decide not to do the race in the first place.  2:20 is a long time to finish the swim.  If they made it 1:45 or so, then you could still swim slowly, but the margin for error is much smaller for marginal swimmers...and thus, folks would have to train more/better for the swim leg or not do the race.  In either case, WTC 'wins'.

2013-05-16 11:34 PM
in reply to: #4745635

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Subject: RE: IM swim starts in jeopardy?
GAUG3 - 2013-05-16 2:08 PM
GMAN 19030 - 2013-05-16 1:55 PM

You guys still aren't getting it.  IMFL will be a mass start only.  There's no chip start.  The race starts at 7am for everybody.

Now how they will line up the various corrals to all hit the water at once has yet to be disclosed.  I would imagine some sort of column or row approach.

Maybe... sub 1 hour predictions up front at the water's edge, everybody else behind hanging out around signs with 10 minute differences.

No, because... once again... everyone goes off at 7am.

2013-05-17 9:04 AM
in reply to: #4745611

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Subject: RE: IM swim starts in jeopardy?
GMAN 19030 - 2013-05-16 1:55 PM

You guys still aren't getting it.  IMFL will be a mass start only.  There's no chip start.  The race starts at 7am for everybody.

Now how they will line up the various corrals to all hit the water at once has yet to be disclosed.  I would imagine some sort of column or row approach.

Ok. I guess my issue is seeing how a "corral start" means everybody "hits the water at once", but you make it clear they haven't disclosed the details.  I just don't really think it'll work any differently than in years past, but we'll see.

2013-05-17 9:31 AM
in reply to: #4746743

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Subject: RE: IM swim starts in jeopardy?

It won't be much different.  It's that everyone will be organized by swim time as opposed to having someone who will swim :55 lining up next to someone who will swim 1:25.

I envision it something like row 1 standing on the beach being sub-:55 swimmers, than row 2 at :55-1:00, then row 3 at 1:00-1:05, and so on.



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