General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Swim intervals vs continuous - interpretation needed Rss Feed  
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2013-03-17 9:07 PM

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Subject: Swim intervals vs continuous - interpretation needed

I am still a beginner at the swim, and have a lot to learn.  I've picked up some very good tips, pointers and advice from all of you, and many thanks for that.  Last January I started this cycle, and was averaging about 2:06/100 for a 500 yd continuous swim.  I built the distance up to 2100 and have been maintaining that for the past weeks.  I read a thread that made a compelling arguement that continuous swims are nowhere near as helpful for improving form or (ultimately) speed as are swimming intervals.  So last week, swam 21x100 on 2 min on mon/tues and a continuous 2100 on Thursday.  I had no expectation that after a couple of interval sessions my continuous swim time would improve, but did expect to see a considerably faster average/100 on the interval session.  I wore my 910 so I could collect data and compare the two, and when I did so I must admit I had expected to see a greater difference between the two.  Being completely honest with myself, however, I realized I am a beginner so not qualified to say if the results are as should be expected or if there should be a greater difference.  But I do know a place where there are a lot of knowledgeable swimmers/coaches who offer great adviceWink.  As such, here is the comparative data from the two sessions.  What should I make of it, what should I do based on it, and what the heck happened in intervals 9 & 10 on the continuous swim (I know the answer to that one, I lost focus and had to regain in interval 11!)?

21 x 100 Intervals2100 Continuous
IntervalAvg PaceAvg Strokes per length

Equivalent

Interval

Avg PaceAvg Strokes per length
11:37811:448
21:41821:489
31:44931:539
41:48941:489
51:48951:5110
61:49961:509
71:48971:509
81:49981:5010
91:48992:0010
101:5010102:0010
111:499111:469
121:499121:519
131:488131:529
141:468141:549
151:489151:509
161:489161:559
171:489171:499
181:499181:559
191:499191:5310
201:479201:5310
211:469211:529
 Summary1:478.9 Summary1:529.1


Edited by TTom 2013-03-17 9:09 PM


2013-03-17 10:29 PM
in reply to: #4663731

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Subject: RE: Swim intervals vs continuous - interpretation needed
You partially answered your own question, you lost focus. Apart from technical improvement the next step in improving yourself in the pool is to do some days where you do shorter more intense repeats. There is nothing wrong for you to do a main set of 60 x 25 or 30 x 50. I will routinely do 60 x 25 broken into 3 mini sets of 20...20 x 25 metres on 25 average 15 sec per 25 (1:00/100 metres)Take extra 20 secondsRepeat 2 more times.Just change the send offs to match your ability and you have an awesome lose your lunch main set.
2013-03-17 11:34 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim intervals vs continuous - interpretation needed
not only were your times better for the interval swim, but your stroke length was longer the entire set for the 21 x 100.

Try this...

Swim a set of X x 100 only as long as you can swim it in 8 stroke cycles per length. How long can you co that? Focus on the things that lead to improvement. Consistently lengthing your stroke is one of them. Imprint your 8 stroke cycles per length until you can do it by choice

When you can do that, then add a timed component to it. Can you swim 8 stroke cycles and consistently hit 1:45 or faster when you do?

(you'll not that your 8 stroke length 100s varied between 1:37 for the first one and 1:48 for your slowest 8 stroke cycle length...what varied? your tempo slowed down).

By adding a timed component to it you start adding consistency in not only form but also tempo. The metabolic needs to do this follow by the form of your practice design.

In the long run 8 stroek cycles may not be your sweet spot, but for the continous you're already doing 9-10 for most of them, averaging 9.1. That's 18 SPL. On the high side if your taller than 5' 3"

there are dozens of ways to structure a practice but sincce you have the watch and your looking at the data...this is a good way to put that data to use.
2013-03-18 12:33 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim intervals vs continuous - interpretation needed

A question about the data presented:

Average Strokes per Length

How is that being calculated? Is a stroke considered 1 arm or both the right/left?

I've been counting my strokes as each time my hand (left or right) enters the water which brings me to 20 for a lap in a standard pool (im a middle aged 5' women).  Thats a huge difference when seeing it takes 8 strokes for 1 lap on your data.

Are you like 7' tall or am I counting wrong? :-)

2013-03-18 12:39 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim intervals vs continuous - interpretation needed
I believe the 910 only counts 1 arm, so you need to double the number shown here.
2013-03-18 1:07 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim intervals vs continuous - interpretation needed

Mike_D - 2013-03-18 10:39 AM I believe the 910 only counts 1 arm, so you need to double the number shown here.

Yes, this is correct.  I wear it on my left wrist so only counts the strokes I take with that arm, thus a reading of 9 could represent 18 OR 19 strokes if the last stroke to the wall is with my right arm.



2013-03-18 1:09 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim intervals vs continuous - interpretation needed

Mike_D - 2013-03-18 1:39 PM I believe the 910 only counts 1 arm, so you need to double the number shown here.

 

Ah right! That makes sense.

 

Thanks.

 

2013-03-18 1:31 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim intervals vs continuous - interpretation needed

AdventureBear - 2013-03-17 9:34 PM not only were your times better for the interval swim, but your stroke length was longer the entire set for the 21 x 100. Try this... Swim a set of X x 100 only as long as you can swim it in 8 stroke cycles per length. How long can you co that? Focus on the things that lead to improvement. Consistently lengthing your stroke is one of them. Imprint your 8 stroke cycles per length until you can do it by choice When you can do that, then add a timed component to it. Can you swim 8 stroke cycles and consistently hit 1:45 or faster when you do? (you'll not that your 8 stroke length 100s varied between 1:37 for the first one and 1:48 for your slowest 8 stroke cycle length...what varied? your tempo slowed down). By adding a timed component to it you start adding consistency in not only form but also tempo. The metabolic needs to do this follow by the form of your practice design. In the long run 8 stroek cycles may not be your sweet spot, but for the continous you're already doing 9-10 for most of them, averaging 9.1. That's 18 SPL. On the high side if your taller than 5' 3" there are dozens of ways to structure a practice but sincce you have the watch and your looking at the data...this is a good way to put that data to use.

Thanks for the feedback you provided here.  I took it to heart today when I did my swim and found that the old adage "What gets measured gets managed" certainly applies here.  Same pool, same time of day, 50% longer bike workout yesterday than the previous week.  For both had my tempo trainer set at 1.16 but today put the focus on extension and hitting that 8 SPL, and admit I would let the tempo take second place as I focused on the extension.  I surprised myself by holding on to it for almost every interval (curses on that 19th!) throughout the set, holding to the 1:45 through 1100, then drifting upwards slowly.  After the first 1000 it took a lot more concentration and after 1600 even more.  There is a drain at the midpoint of the pool that acts as a checkpoint and on many lengths I knew that my first few strokes weren't good enough to hold the 8 so the last half redoubled efforts.  I believe that in the first half to 2/3 of the intervals I was touching with my left (garmin) hand but in the later ones mostly with my right which would account for some of the time differences at the same SPL/tempo perhaps.  Here's the data from today:

IntervalAvg PaceAvg Strokes
11:418
21:418
31:428
41:438
51:448
61:448
71:458
81:438
91:448
101:458
111:458
121:468
131:468
141:468
151:488
161:468
171:478
181:488
191:489
201:508
211:488
 Summary1:458

Wish I could make your Masters swim group, but I think the commute from here would be a bit muchSmile

2013-03-18 2:02 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim intervals vs continuous - interpretation needed

I think part of the problem here is that intervals force pace, i.e. it teaches you to pace correctly. You begin to feel the variations in your pace better. So you can't really unlearn that 2 days later for a straight swim. The practice in the pool has made you a more consistent swimmer, so when you do a straight swim, esp 2 days after a large set of 100's, you're just going to be more consistent. I think your experiment shows that pretty well by seeing the larger variation in your 100 times on the straight swim.

Also, I wouldn't get too focused on your stroke count. Stroke count is the result of your technique and pace. It's not a process itself. The golfer doesn't go out on the course and focus on a 68. He goes out on the course and focuses on his short game, or putting, or chipping, and the result is a 68. Focus on your effort and your pace and the small things you need to do to make them better. The result will be your stroke count. It's something to spot check once in a while, not every lap.

On a side note: Good set. well done.

2013-03-18 10:31 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim intervals vs continuous - interpretation needed
tjfry - 2013-03-18 12:02 PM

Also, I wouldn't get too focused on your stroke count. Stroke count is the result of your technique and pace. It's not a process itself. The golfer doesn't go out on the course and focus on a 68. He goes out on the course and focuses on his short game, or putting, or chipping, and the result is a 68. Focus on your effort and your pace and the small things you need to do to make them better. The result will be your stroke count. It's something to spot check once in a while, not every lap.

On a side note: Good set. well done.

I think we are in agreement.  The goal of the exercise was a reduced and consistent stroke count, but the activity to allow it to happen - extension, hip rotation, more complete pull - was where the real work came in.  I don't know that I got a 68, but I certainly feel like I got a better feel for the game today.  I do need to imprint these learnings more so that I can make them a more automatic part of the stroke, but do recognize there is still a lot of work to be done.  But the learning is a part of the fun, right?

And thanks for the positive note - always appreciated!



Edited by TTom 2013-03-18 10:32 PM
2013-03-18 11:46 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim intervals vs continuous - interpretation needed
By focusing on the number you created incredible consistency in that last set. You'll notice the pace slows gradually..so what changed is the tempo. You have the skill to swim the 8spl at this time, but not the fitness to sustain the same tempo @ 8spl throughout the set you've chosen.

Again there are an infinite variety of ways to address this, and in reality I'd do other patterns and focuses during a week's training... but the NEXT time you want to do a set of 21 x 100 on 1:45 I'd suggest breaking it down to try and enable more consistency.

For example
7 Rounds of 3 x 100 on 1:45. Hold 1:40-1:42 for each, rest 30 seconds between rounds.

it's a different way to try and solidify the skills you are using that result in the 8SPL.

I agree in general that it's not the number that determines what kind of swimmer you are, but as you noted...once you start paying attention to it, you have frequent reminders that X or Y or Z has slipped a bit in your focus.

Your ideal stroke count will vary with your pace and your fitness level...but its an easy way to add another element to your practice design which makes pool time much more entertaining.

Try another set where you adjsut the tempo trainer to .02 seconds faster (or slower) per 100 and watch how the SPL changes. Faster tempo usually creates higher SPL. But is the pace faster or slower? Conversely, keep the same SPL and increase the tempo...does your pace get faster.

There are so many ways to play with this stuff it's insane. And that's what makes it fun. You just need a starting point.


2013-03-19 8:55 AM
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Subject: RE: Swim intervals vs continuous - interpretation needed
Main set of 20 x 75 @ 1:10, averaged 50/75 so just under 1:08/100 metres. No way I would have broken 17:00 last night for a time trial... Keep this up (and mix in 25, 50, 75, 100, 200). See a coach if you can...
2013-03-19 1:23 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim intervals vs continuous - interpretation needed

AdventureBear - 2013-03-18 9:46 PM By focusing on the number you created incredible consistency in that last set. You'll notice the pace slows gradually..so what changed is the tempo. You have the skill to swim the 8spl at this time, but not the fitness to sustain the same tempo @ 8spl throughout the set you've chosen. Again there are an infinite variety of ways to address this, and in reality I'd do other patterns and focuses during a week's training... but the NEXT time you want to do a set of 21 x 100 on 1:45 I'd suggest breaking it down to try and enable more consistency. For example 7 Rounds of 3 x 100 on 1:45. Hold 1:40-1:42 for each, rest 30 seconds between rounds. it's a different way to try and solidify the skills you are using that result in the 8SPL. I agree in general that it's not the number that determines what kind of swimmer you are, but as you noted...once you start paying attention to it, you have frequent reminders that X or Y or Z has slipped a bit in your focus. Your ideal stroke count will vary with your pace and your fitness level...but its an easy way to add another element to your practice design which makes pool time much more entertaining. Try another set where you adjsut the tempo trainer to .02 seconds faster (or slower) per 100 and watch how the SPL changes. Faster tempo usually creates higher SPL. But is the pace faster or slower? Conversely, keep the same SPL and increase the tempo...does your pace get faster. There are so many ways to play with this stuff it's insane. And that's what makes it fun. You just need a starting point.

I like the mixing it up aspect, makes it more interesting and engaging.  I'll try the 3x100x7 suggestion in the coming weeks but also will look for other shorter sets and play with intensity and (as you suggest) explore the tempo vs. SPL relationship.  I did my build from 500 yds to the 2100 at a tempo of 1.2 and then in the past couple of weeks dialed it down to 1.18 then 1.16 for the data shown above.  SPL during that time dropped from a starting point of 10-11 to the 8 right now, so I'm feeling pretty good about the tempo/SPL progress so far.  

I've not done any real intensity as I've been simply working on developing better technique and endurance.  It would probably be worthwhile to establish some benchmark times for 25, 50, 75, 100, 200 at this point, no?

2013-03-19 1:29 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim intervals vs continuous - interpretation needed

simpsonbo - 2013-03-19 6:55 AM Main set of 20 x 75 @ 1:10, averaged 50/75 so just under 1:08/100 metres. No way I would have broken 17:00 last night for a time trial... Keep this up (and mix in 25, 50, 75, 100, 200). See a coach if you can...

From my current point of swim ability fitness, all I can say is this to me looks like awesome performance!  I guess I can choose to throw in the towel or use it as a motivator - I'll choose the latterSmile.  It is good inspiration to start working shorter distance components in as main sets.  Thanks for the feedback and input.

2013-03-19 4:56 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim intervals vs continuous - interpretation needed
TTom - 2013-03-19 12:23 PM

I've not done any real intensity as I've been simply working on developing better technique and endurance.  It would probably be worthwhile to establish some benchmark times for 25, 50, 75, 100, 200 at this point, no?



It doesn't hurt to establish a current benchmark...No need to do each of what you posted above as they are all pretty close in distnace, but start with a TT of 100 & 400 (or 50 & 300) to see how much anaerobic componeint is going int the short distances and how much decay there is for the longer (> 5 minute) ones. You can do a more traditional TT test of 200 & 400 yards which should both be aerobic enough to give you an idea of your sustainble pace (called CSS Critical Swim Speed).

For mathy types, doing a 100, 200 & 400 Time trial will let you see your doubling times, as well as tell you how much strength you're putting into short repeats that are not available for longer repeats.
2013-03-19 9:38 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim intervals vs continuous - interpretation needed

Geez, 21 100's or 2100 straight.  All freestyle?  All same effort level? That is mind numbing, how did you manage not to kill yourself by the end of that?  

Mix it up some.  If your going to do just free style, do some 100's, 50's, 200's.  Also, when your doing sets of hundreds, do them on descending times if you want to build speed.  For example,  sets of 3 100's, one easy, one at race pace, one at max effort.  Learn some other strokes, throw some 50's of breast, back, and fly if your feeling adventurous.



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