Advice on maintaining or abandoning Z2 runs in Fink IM plan

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2013-05-08 12:30 PM

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Subject: Advice on maintaining or abandoning Z2 runs in Fink IM plan
I signed up 6 months ago for IMAZ and I had grand plans of working through the winter to build a strong base and loose some weight. Neither of those have happened and here I am 6 months from the race and other than some occasional SBR no significant volume of training has occurred.

My plan is still to finish the race in November. I selected the Don Fink IronFit Intermediate plan and began the 30 week program 3 weeks ago. I have followed the plan so far but all the workouts at this point in the plan specify easy zone 2 workouts but for me to keep my HR that low while running is not achievable for me. I don't have my exact zone 2 figured out at this point but I know it is nowhere near 150 bmp. My latest run data from yesterday is attached.

Some History:
Resting HR at wakeup 68, Max HR about 175 (based on sprints during runs)
45 y.o. Male
220 lbs.
I have been doing a minimum of 1-2 OLY distance triathlons for the past 5 years. I have never used any structured plans for triathlon. I do have an 8 year history of dozens of running races. 15 HM and 3 Marathons but always slow and steady, BOP.

My question is: Am I harming or helping my training but running with my HR so high? Should I force myself to work out much less vigor to stay at lower HR. My main concern if I do that is that my pace would be ridiculously low beyond what it is. Can I just continue with the runs at current heart rate? I just want to make sure I maximize my workouts to get the best outcome with the limited time I have before the race.

Thank you very much for any input.

Keba




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2013-05-08 12:41 PM
in reply to: #4733342

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Subject: RE: Advice on maintaining or abandoning Z2 runs in Fink IM plan
How do you know what your HR zones currently are?
2013-05-08 12:44 PM
in reply to: #4733342

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Subject: RE: Advice on maintaining or abandoning Z2 runs in Fink IM plan

You should really do almost all of your work for an IM in Zone 2...

I'm guessing your zones are incorrect and you probably ARE in Zone 2 but don't know it.

I'm guessing your max HR is higher than 175.  I know it's individual, but I'm 44 and 180 is my LT with a max HR closer to 200.

Try doing an LT field test.  If your max during sprints is 175, can you keep that up for a while?  Can you keep it at 175 for 20-30 minutes?  I'm guessing 175 is closer to your LT, than max HR.

Another reason I think so, if you can run at 153 for 40 minutes comfortably, you are probably in Zone 2 or Zone 3.  If you were in Zone 4, it would feel like a pretty hard effort.  What is 140-159?  That's pretty wide for zone work.

I can only see what you posted and you could be spot on with all your info/zones.  But something doesn't feel right about it to me.

Again, Zone 2 should feel like you can do it for ever, day after day, more or less.  Zone 3 is a bit harder and after an hour, should feel like a pretty good workout.   Zone 4 is close to a 10k race pace.

If you go by feel, you should be able to get an idea of what zone you are in.

2013-05-08 2:28 PM
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Subject: RE: Advice on maintaining or abandoning Z2 runs in Fink IM plan
Kido - 2013-05-08 12:44 PM

You should really do almost all of your work for an IM in Zone 2...

I'm guessing your zones are incorrect and you probably ARE in Zone 2 but don't know it.

I'm guessing your max HR is higher than 175.  I know it's individual, but I'm 44 and 180 is my LT with a max HR closer to 200.

Try doing an LT field test.  If your max during sprints is 175, can you keep that up for a while?  Can you keep it at 175 for 20-30 minutes?  I'm guessing 175 is closer to your LT, than max HR.

Another reason I think so, if you can run at 153 for 40 minutes comfortably, you are probably in Zone 2 or Zone 3.  If you were in Zone 4, it would feel like a pretty hard effort.  What is 140-159?  That's pretty wide for zone work.

I can only see what you posted and you could be spot on with all your info/zones.  But something doesn't feel right about it to me.

Again, Zone 2 should feel like you can do it for ever, day after day, more or less.  Zone 3 is a bit harder and after an hour, should feel like a pretty good workout.   Zone 4 is close to a 10k race pace.

If you go by feel, you should be able to get an idea of what zone you are in.



I really have not done any testing other than looking at my HR data at the end of a sprint at the end of running races where I try to at least catch the person in front of me and hold off the guy behind me which usually leave me near death. With biking i'm looking at the HR during long steep climbs where I also feel close to death. Maybe I *am* in zone 2 and I will do some more specific research to nail down the zones. I just figured I should be closer to a 135 number based on feel. If running at that capacity it does not feel like a hard workout but it also does not feel like a super easy effort either. I definately can't keep 175 for any length of time.

Keba
2013-05-08 2:39 PM
in reply to: #4733342

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Subject: RE: Advice on maintaining or abandoning Z2 runs in Fink IM plan

You have to calculate your HR zone exactly as Fink describes it, not a typical five zone system.  You can change/add these in SportTracks once you have them figured out.

You can use this calculator here http://www.mile141.co.uk/triathlon/calculator.aspx to do the math for you (Fink zones are on the bottom).

Plus, this early in your plan, just get the workouts in.  The last 10-15 weeks, that is when it is more important to work in zone 2 (IMHO).  You will be in much better shape once you get 15 weeks into this plan, trust me!  Things will get easier.  Your HR will get lower.

2013-05-08 3:04 PM
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Subject: RE: Advice on maintaining or abandoning Z2 runs in Fink IM plan
bgraboski - 2013-05-08 2:39 PM

...The last 10-15 weeks, that is when it is more important to work in zone 2 (IMHO).  You will be in much better shape once you get 15 weeks into this plan, trust me!  Things will get easier.  Your HR will get lower.



This is what I was thinking, I just didn't want to find out later that I should have been keeping it more mellow.

Thanks

Keba

2013-05-08 5:04 PM
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Subject: RE: Advice on maintaining or abandoning Z2 runs in Fink IM plan
bgraboski - 2013-05-08 12:39 PM

You have to calculate your HR zone exactly as Fink describes it, not a typical five zone system.  You can change/add these in SportTracks once you have them figured out.

You can use this calculator here http://www.mile141.co.uk/triathlon/calculator.aspx to do the math for you (Fink zones are on the bottom).

Plus, this early in your plan, just get the workouts in.  The last 10-15 weeks, that is when it is more important to work in zone 2 (IMHO).  You will be in much better shape once you get 15 weeks into this plan, trust me!  Things will get easier.  Your HR will get lower.

 

X2 - The Fink zones are NOT the same as the standard Garmin/Polar 1-5 zones.  

The higher end of Zone 2 using the Fink plan is actually a pretty good effort for me.  

2013-05-11 2:24 PM
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Subject: RE: Advice on maintaining or abandoning Z2 runs in Fink IM plan
I found Fink's zones to be quite similar to BT's calculator. Your zones look a little low (150 is probably Z2, maybe low Z3), but that workout is probably too intense for a 45yo. You need to get this figured out -- do Fink's calculation or the 30' all-out test. Once you have your zones, you should be in Z2, if not in Z1, almost all the time. With your lack of base training it's going to be a challenge to get through Fink's 30 weeks no matter what. I would guess that regularly working out above Z2 will all but nix your chances of completing the program. There is a tremendous amount of volume coming your way. You need to be smart about training, rest, recovery, and nutrition to get through it. I did my IM on a mix of Fink's intermediate and competitive plans without any of the Z4 work and ran an 11:07. If you don't get why all the Z2 work is necessary, read some of Gordo's stuff. I read this over and over during my training and found it very helpful. Good luck with it... I hope you make it through and have a great race.
2013-05-11 3:30 PM
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Subject: RE: Advice on maintaining or abandoning Z2 runs in Fink IM plan
I'm going to get crucified for this, but oh well. I've always kind of followed the "zone 2" pace and even did it to begin my 30 week Fink plan last year, but suddenly changed everything up after training with a 2:3x marathoner. He told me "you have to train fast to get fast" he also use to run occasionally with Macca and some other well known fast athletes and he said they ran fast and hard during training. Now I know this is all subjective, especially considering I'm talking about pro athletes, but it worked for me. My previous marathon PR was 3:57 ( on a fast course). Then I dropped the zone stuff and just ran at the pace that felt comfortably tough and pushed myself frequently by running with faster people. My marathon time 6 months later was about 3:10-3:15. Again, this is just my experience. Not trying to change anyone's mind, but training faster definitely works for me. That being said, I do alternate some slower days by doing more trail/ hill running which slows me down but is still a great workout. Just my .02
2013-05-11 5:49 PM
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Subject: RE: Advice on maintaining or abandoning Z2 runs in Fink IM plan
There is a sort of dark magic that happens a few months into z2 work. I have no clue how it works but the speed showed up for me 2 months in, at the lower hr.
2013-05-11 6:45 PM
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Subject: RE: Advice on maintaining or abandoning Z2 runs in Fink IM plan

jmug23 - 2013-05-11 4:30 PM I'm going to get crucified for this, but oh well. I've always kind of followed the "zone 2" pace and even did it to begin my 30 week Fink plan last year, but suddenly changed everything up after training with a 2:3x marathoner. He told me "you have to train fast to get fast" he also use to run occasionally with Macca and some other well known fast athletes and he said they ran fast and hard during training. Now I know this is all subjective, especially considering I'm talking about pro athletes, but it worked for me. My previous marathon PR was 3:57 ( on a fast course). Then I dropped the zone stuff and just ran at the pace that felt comfortably tough and pushed myself frequently by running with faster people. My marathon time 6 months later was about 3:10-3:15. Again, this is just my experience. Not trying to change anyone's mind, but training faster definitely works for me. That being said, I do alternate some slower days by doing more trail/ hill running which slows me down but is still a great workout. Just my .02

 

There's certainly a place for tempo work, but not so much for many IMers. Besides the pro/amateur distinction, marathons test sub-threshold endurance, IMs test aerobic endurance. I'm not claiming expertise, but I think the two are pretty different systems. Gordo's point in the article I referenced above is that for all but FOP IMers, the primary determiner of time is whether or not you run the whole marathon. Until one is sure they have the aerobic endurance to run for four hours coming off a six hour bike ride, speed is of little relevance. 

2013-05-11 11:38 PM
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Subject: RE: Advice on maintaining or abandoning Z2 runs in Fink IM plan
neweyes - 2013-05-11 6:45 PM

jmug23 - 2013-05-11 4:30 PM I'm going to get crucified for this, but oh well. I've always kind of followed the "zone 2" pace and even did it to begin my 30 week Fink plan last year, but suddenly changed everything up after training with a 2:3x marathoner. He told me "you have to train fast to get fast" he also use to run occasionally with Macca and some other well known fast athletes and he said they ran fast and hard during training. Now I know this is all subjective, especially considering I'm talking about pro athletes, but it worked for me. My previous marathon PR was 3:57 ( on a fast course). Then I dropped the zone stuff and just ran at the pace that felt comfortably tough and pushed myself frequently by running with faster people. My marathon time 6 months later was about 3:10-3:15. Again, this is just my experience. Not trying to change anyone's mind, but training faster definitely works for me. That being said, I do alternate some slower days by doing more trail/ hill running which slows me down but is still a great workout. Just my .02

 

There's certainly a place for tempo work, but not so much for many IMers. Besides the pro/amateur distinction, marathons test sub-threshold endurance, IMs test aerobic endurance. I'm not claiming expertise, but I think the two are pretty different systems. Gordo's point in the article I referenced above is that for all but FOP IMers, the primary determiner of time is whether or not you run the whole marathon. Until one is sure they have the aerobic endurance to run for four hours coming off a six hour bike ride, speed is of little relevance. 

Yeah, you are probably right. I'm definitely speaking more in terms of just running, not necessarily the IM marathon. Believe me, I'm far from an expert, just thought I would share some of my completely unscientific anecdotal experiences I do feel that bringing my stand alone marathon down to the 3:10 range made my IM 4:10 run more possible, considering my previous stand alone PR was only 3:56 or something. With the increase in speed, it made me feel pretty relaxed running around a 9:00 mile during my IM. But again, simply my experience, and I guarantee I know less about proper training than 99% of the folks on here Cheers
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