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2013-06-12 8:58 PM
in reply to: jdl2012

Subject: RE: Swim form and cadence?


2013-06-12 8:59 PM
in reply to: Left Brain


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Subject: RE: Swim form and cadence?
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by simpsonbo That 2:06 to be fair came after racing 50 fly, 100 fly then 200 fly, 200 bk, 200 br in very short order and then 200 free followed by 200 IM. My life pr is 1:52 scm with relay splits of 1:51 being not out of the ordinary. Notice my cadence is still slower than the lane beside me (kyle marcotte ... ironman canada podium guy).

Dude...like I said, I have great respect for your swimming.....but I have come to realize that truly good swimming, like yours, is a product of learning the basics at a very young age....and I don't care what anyone says, it's all about being balanced in the water. (as you said)   

People can learn to swim fairly well later in life....but realistically, virtually nobody who learns to swim as an adult is going to go under 2:00 for 200.  I watch 14-15 year old kids do it all the time....it's truly astounding for someone like me, who didn't learn to swim until I was in my 20's......30 years later and I can go 1:35 for 100 on a good day.....once.

I pick my kid up and say, "how was practice?"...he says, "it was good, we did 30 100's on 1:10 for the main set"....WTF??? Laughing




I think honestly a big part of that is the lack of adult organized swim groups at similar level. It's rare as an adult to find a team of similar-ability individuals who can devote 3 hours per day, 6 days per week, to competitive swimming and have organized meets with other clubs of the same level.

Although I def agree that skills acquired in early childhood give a real long-term advantage. It's true in music, and many other things.
2013-06-12 9:00 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim form and cadence?
Increasing cadence is not the answer. Increasing cadence and maintaining proper form is. I have never been good at shorter races because my form always broke down at anything shorter than a 200. (it was embarrassing at 50 yd) I would increase my cadence and begin churning. All I did was exhaust myself. Even then, I didn't really do well agains my competition until I got to 400/500.

Edited by E=H2O 2013-06-12 9:28 PM
2013-06-12 9:18 PM
in reply to: jdl2012

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Subject: RE: Swim form and cadence?
Speed is the difference between resistance caused by drag and force creatd by propulsion. The bigger you make that gap the faster you'll go. Increasing cadence "may" increase propulsive force but it's also almost certainly creating even more resistance due to not quite perfect technique.

On the flip side, lowering cadence while focusing on decreasing drag, creating less turbulence, improving your balance, relaxing your head, making fewer splashes...may lower the propulsive force small amount but decrease the drag resistance by a greater amount making you swim faster.


Tonight one of my swimmers was getting frustrated that every 50m he swam was slower than the one before. Hejust kept trying harder and could not get faster than 55seconds (for 50 meters).

I told him to swim an easy lap and try to get down to 48 strokes (good for him), then increase his cadence and try to swim faster than 55 seconds. he achieved the former, but not the latter. A few miutes later he reported back again...he had lowered his cadence even more, swam 41 strokes and swam 2 seconds faster than his previous fast for the night. By lowering his cadence he achieved a smoother form thta created less drag.

The only way to discover what works for you is to experiment. Counterintuitively, try swimming more slowly on purpose as you try to minimize drag...see how much your speed actually slows down .



OH, and post a video .
2013-06-12 11:28 PM
in reply to: E=H2O

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Subject: RE: Swim form and cadence?
Originally posted by E=H2O
Originally posted by Left Brain

Dude...like I said, I have great respect for your swimming.....but I have come to realize that truly good swimming, like yours, is a product of learning the basics at a very young age....and I don't care what anyone says, it's all about being balanced in the water. (as you said)   

People can learn to swim fairly well later in life....but realistically, virtually nobody who learns to swim as an adult is going to go under 2:00 for 200.

I'm not sure I can agree with you on this one. I started competitive swimming as a sophomore in high school. During those years I only had workouts September to March. I didn't belong to a swim club. I was an ok high school swimmer. Nothing special. After being out of the water for a decade I returned to swim masters when I was 29 - 30 and went on to swim my best times. Much better than my high school years. I think if you commit yourself to swimming in your 20's and 30's (and some people in their 40's) you can be a FOP on the swim leg at your local tri.

However, a multi-sport athlete doesn't usually have the luxury of spending so much time in the pool. That is why I strongly recommend to people that they commit a lot of time on swimming during the off season. Improvements in form will carry over as you place more emphasis on training the run & bike later in the season.

I think if you learn to swim in your 20's you might (and this is total speculation) be able to go 2:00 SCM. Maybe even if you didn't learn until your very early 30's. However it would have to a very special athlete with a strong background in competitive athletics. A wingspan of six feet, seven inches and a size 14 shoe size would also help a lot (Michael Phelps).

Wait....you said you weren't sure that you could agree and then you did. Laughing  I'm gonna stick with it.....virtually no one who learns to swim as an adult is going to go under 2:00 for 200 SCM.  

I have great respect for anyone who swims well.

2013-06-12 11:54 PM
in reply to: jdl2012

Subject: RE: Swim form and cadence?


2013-06-13 2:28 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Swim form and cadence?
Originally posted by Left Brain

I'm gonna stick with it.....virtually no one who learns to swim as an adult is going to go under 2:00 for 200 SCM.


For what it's worth, even some of the best swimmers, even if they started age 6, don't go under 2:00 for a 200 SCM I was an Olympic Trial qualifier in the 400 LCM, and I couldn't do under 2:00 in the 200 SCM.

You probably mean SCY.
2013-06-13 2:40 PM
in reply to: BostonSwim41

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Subject: RE: Swim form and cadence?

Originally posted by BostonSwim41
Originally posted by Left Brain
I'm gonna stick with it.....virtually no one who learns to swim as an adult is going to go under 2:00 for 200 SCM.
For what it's worth, even some of the best swimmers, even if they started age 6, don't go under 2:00 for a 200 SCM I was an Olympic Trial qualifier in the 400 LCM, and I couldn't do under 2:00 in the 200 SCM. You probably mean SCY.

Yeah, my bad.... I meant to type SCY while I was thinking about their current LCM season.  I went and loooked at their  SCY times.....the SLOWEST in his group of 14 - 16 year olds that I could find is 1:53:XX for 200 SCY.  They all swim AA and AAA times with an occasional Quad A.....I'm always blown away watching them practice.

I still say a person who learns to swim as an adult, even a young adult, has almost zero chance of swimming those times.

2013-06-14 12:24 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Swim form and cadence?
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by BostonSwim41
Originally posted by Left Brain
I'm gonna stick with it.....virtually no one who learns to swim as an adult is going to go under 2:00 for 200 SCM.
For what it's worth, even some of the best swimmers, even if they started age 6, don't go under 2:00 for a 200 SCM I was an Olympic Trial qualifier in the 400 LCM, and I couldn't do under 2:00 in the 200 SCM. You probably mean SCY.

Yeah, my bad.... I meant to type SCY while I was thinking about their current LCM season.  I went and loooked at their  SCY times.....the SLOWEST in his group of 14 - 16 year olds that I could find is 1:53:XX for 200 SCY.  They all swim AA and AAA times with an occasional Quad A.....I'm always blown away watching them practice.

I still say a person who learns to swim as an adult, even a young adult, has almost zero chance of swimming those times.

In which case I really disagree with you. A person who learns to swim in their 20's can do 2 minutes for 200 yd if they commit themselves to their training (5 days a week with a coach swimming a hard 3,500 to 4,000 yd @ day). How long it takes will depend on a number of things, but it is a realistic goal.

2013-06-14 12:51 PM
in reply to: E=H2O

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Subject: RE: Swim form and cadence?
Originally posted by E=H2O
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by BostonSwim41
Originally posted by Left Brain
I'm gonna stick with it.....virtually no one who learns to swim as an adult is going to go under 2:00 for 200 SCM.
For what it's worth, even some of the best swimmers, even if they started age 6, don't go under 2:00 for a 200 SCM I was an Olympic Trial qualifier in the 400 LCM, and I couldn't do under 2:00 in the 200 SCM. You probably mean SCY.

Yeah, my bad.... I meant to type SCY while I was thinking about their current LCM season.  I went and loooked at their  SCY times.....the SLOWEST in his group of 14 - 16 year olds that I could find is 1:53:XX for 200 SCY.  They all swim AA and AAA times with an occasional Quad A.....I'm always blown away watching them practice.

I still say a person who learns to swim as an adult, even a young adult, has almost zero chance of swimming those times.

In which case I really disagree with you. A person who learns to swim in their 20's can do 2 minutes for 200 yd if they commit themselves to their training (5 days a week with a coach swimming a hard 3,500 to 4,000 yd @ day). How long it takes will depend on a number of things, but it is a realistic goal.

I don't know of any....and I've spent quite a bit of time over the last 3 decades around people learning to swim, doing triathlons, etc.  In fact, I don't know anyone who learned to swim as an adult who goes under 1:00 for 100 yards.

I suppose it's possible....but I'll still stick with my original statement.....it's virtually impossible, and I'd wager that the percentage of people who learn to swim as adults and go under 2:00 for 200 is very close to ZERO.

2013-06-14 1:12 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim form and cadence?
Originally posted by Left Brain

  • ....but I have come to realize that truly good swimming, like yours, is a product of learning the basics at a very young age....and I don't care what anyone says, it's all about being balanced in the water. (as you said)   


  • I'm starting to get a glimpse into this world. The 7yo got invited to swim on his club's competitive 9&U team. It's amazing watching those little kids circle swim. I only got to hear a brief second of their workout once when they switched to an outdoor pool for summer (I'm usually began the glass in the observation room), and the coach barked out "Alright, 50 free on the bottom." I'm an adult onset swimmer, so I'm amazed at how ingrained all this becomes when they swim from such a young age.

    What's even crazier is watching the year round kids swim summer league. Few things give me a bigger grin than watching the boy's fly underwaters for about 12 meters, as the other kids are 3-4 strokes in, only to have him then pop up in the lead.




    Edited by Goosedog 2013-06-14 1:15 PM




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    2013-06-14 1:22 PM
    in reply to: Left Brain

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    Subject: RE: Swim form and cadence?
    Originally posted by Left Brain
    Originally posted by E=H2O
    Originally posted by Left Brain

    Originally posted by BostonSwim41
    Originally posted by Left Brain
    I'm gonna stick with it.....virtually no one who learns to swim as an adult is going to go under 2:00 for 200 SCM.
    For what it's worth, even some of the best swimmers, even if they started age 6, don't go under 2:00 for a 200 SCM I was an Olympic Trial qualifier in the 400 LCM, and I couldn't do under 2:00 in the 200 SCM. You probably mean SCY.

    Yeah, my bad.... I meant to type SCY while I was thinking about their current LCM season.  I went and loooked at their  SCY times.....the SLOWEST in his group of 14 - 16 year olds that I could find is 1:53:XX for 200 SCY.  They all swim AA and AAA times with an occasional Quad A.....I'm always blown away watching them practice.

    I still say a person who learns to swim as an adult, even a young adult, has almost zero chance of swimming those times.

    In which case I really disagree with you. A person who learns to swim in their 20's can do 2 minutes for 200 yd if they commit themselves to their training (5 days a week with a coach swimming a hard 3,500 to 4,000 yd @ day). How long it takes will depend on a number of things, but it is a realistic goal.

    I don't know of any....and I've spent quite a bit of time over the last 3 decades around people learning to swim, doing triathlons, etc.  In fact, I don't know anyone who learned to swim as an adult who goes under 1:00 for 100 yards.

    I suppose it's possible....but I'll still stick with my original statement.....it's virtually impossible, and I'd wager that the percentage of people who learn to swim as adults and go under 2:00 for 200 is very close to ZERO.

    If you want to find a person who learned to swim as adult and could go under 1:00 for SCY don't hang out with triathletes. Hand out with Masters swimmers. Just don't ask them how fast they can run 5K or 10K

    2013-06-14 1:37 PM
    in reply to: E=H2O

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    Subject: RE: Swim form and cadence?
    I'm going with Bob on this one. There's a colossal difference between triathlete's swimming and someone who is just swimmimg and can log 20K a week. Still not easy but definitely doable.
    2013-06-14 1:50 PM
    in reply to: Left Brain

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    Subject: RE: Swim form and cadence?
    Originally posted by Left Brain
    Originally posted by E=H2O
    Originally posted by Left Brain

    Originally posted by BostonSwim41
    Originally posted by Left Brain
    I'm gonna stick with it.....virtually no one who learns to swim as an adult is going to go under 2:00 for 200 SCM.
    For what it's worth, even some of the best swimmers, even if they started age 6, don't go under 2:00 for a 200 SCM I was an Olympic Trial qualifier in the 400 LCM, and I couldn't do under 2:00 in the 200 SCM. You probably mean SCY.

    Yeah, my bad.... I meant to type SCY while I was thinking about their current LCM season.  I went and loooked at their  SCY times.....the SLOWEST in his group of 14 - 16 year olds that I could find is 1:53:XX for 200 SCY.  They all swim AA and AAA times with an occasional Quad A.....I'm always blown away watching them practice.

    I still say a person who learns to swim as an adult, even a young adult, has almost zero chance of swimming those times.

    In which case I really disagree with you. A person who learns to swim in their 20's can do 2 minutes for 200 yd if they commit themselves to their training (5 days a week with a coach swimming a hard 3,500 to 4,000 yd @ day). How long it takes will depend on a number of things, but it is a realistic goal.

    I don't know of any....and I've spent quite a bit of time over the last 3 decades around people learning to swim, doing triathlons, etc.  In fact, I don't know anyone who learned to swim as an adult who goes under 1:00 for 100 yards.

    I suppose it's possible....but I'll still stick with my original statement.....it's virtually impossible, and I'd wager that the percentage of people who learn to swim as adults and go under 2:00 for 200 is very close to ZERO.

    I may be as close as you're going to get.  I came to swimming in my late 30s and swam my first ever swm meet at age 40.  In college, I was required to pass a swim test to graduate.  I failed it and was forced to take remedial swimming.  So that's my background.

    I've gone 27.11 50 Free SCY, 31.24 50 Back SCY, 30.03 50 fly SCY.  Best 100 is 1:03.xx but I rarely swim the 100.  I routinely do 30 second inpool-start 50s.  And my best 50 time is 27 low.  So if I put together a good race, I believe I could go 1:00.  I know that I've improved a good bit since I swam the 1:03.xx.  But I'm more focused on backstroke.  I'm about 0.7 seconds away from qualifying for Nationals in the 50 back.  It is a goal of mine.

    In my masters group, I do swim with the former college swimmers and usually hold my own.  I'm not competitive in distance and I'll get lapped by better swimmers there.  But in some things (kicking sets most notably), I am the best/fastest in the ~80 person group.  I'm among the top 2 or 3 in backstroke. 

    I've been told by several people who've been with the group for years that there's only one person who's been part of our group that equals my natural feel of the water.  That person went to Olympic trials.  So its pretty unlikely that you will come across an adult novice swimmer who has materially better natural swim ability than I have.

    So I would have to generally agree with your position that you're very unlikely to find someone who came to swimming as an adult who can go sub 2:00 200.  I know I could not come close to holding that pace for a 200.  A 1:00 100 I'd have a very good shot at.  But I havent done it, so I can't claim it.

    As for discussion of strokes per length, versus turnover, I average 13 strokes per 25 yards.  I could use improved turnover to get faster too, but it takes a whole lot of wind.  I 've gotten faster by being more efficient.  I found watching videos of Sun Yang in the Olympics to be very helpful.  The guy went sub 15 min for the 1500 meters with a very slow turnover.  I try to mimic that.

    2013-06-14 2:09 PM
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    Subject: RE: Swim form and cadence?
    Originally posted by Ridgelake
    Originally posted by Left Brain
    Originally posted by E=H2O
    Originally posted by Left Brain

    Originally posted by BostonSwim41
    Originally posted by Left Brain
    I'm gonna stick with it.....virtually no one who learns to swim as an adult is going to go under 2:00 for 200 SCM.
    For what it's worth, even some of the best swimmers, even if they started age 6, don't go under 2:00 for a 200 SCM I was an Olympic Trial qualifier in the 400 LCM, and I couldn't do under 2:00 in the 200 SCM. You probably mean SCY.

    Yeah, my bad.... I meant to type SCY while I was thinking about their current LCM season.  I went and loooked at their  SCY times.....the SLOWEST in his group of 14 - 16 year olds that I could find is 1:53:XX for 200 SCY.  They all swim AA and AAA times with an occasional Quad A.....I'm always blown away watching them practice.

    I still say a person who learns to swim as an adult, even a young adult, has almost zero chance of swimming those times.

    In which case I really disagree with you. A person who learns to swim in their 20's can do 2 minutes for 200 yd if they commit themselves to their training (5 days a week with a coach swimming a hard 3,500 to 4,000 yd @ day). How long it takes will depend on a number of things, but it is a realistic goal.

    I don't know of any....and I've spent quite a bit of time over the last 3 decades around people learning to swim, doing triathlons, etc.  In fact, I don't know anyone who learned to swim as an adult who goes under 1:00 for 100 yards.

    I suppose it's possible....but I'll still stick with my original statement.....it's virtually impossible, and I'd wager that the percentage of people who learn to swim as adults and go under 2:00 for 200 is very close to ZERO.

    I may be as close as you're going to get.  I came to swimming in my late 30s and swam my first ever swm meet at age 40.  In college, I was required to pass a swim test to graduate.  I failed it and was forced to take remedial swimming.  So that's my background.

    I've gone 27.11 50 Free SCY, 31.24 50 Back SCY, 30.03 50 fly SCY.  Best 100 is 1:03.xx but I rarely swim the 100.  I routinely do 30 second inpool-start 50s.  And my best 50 time is 27 low.  So if I put together a good race, I believe I could go 1:00.  I know that I've improved a good bit since I swam the 1:03.xx.  But I'm more focused on backstroke.  I'm about 0.7 seconds away from qualifying for Nationals in the 50 back.  It is a goal of mine.

    In my masters group, I do swim with the former college swimmers and usually hold my own.  I'm not competitive in distance and I'll get lapped by better swimmers there.  But in some things (kicking sets most notably), I am the best/fastest in the ~80 person group.  I'm among the top 2 or 3 in backstroke. 

    I've been told by several people who've been with the group for years that there's only one person who's been part of our group that equals my natural feel of the water.  That person went to Olympic trials.  So its pretty unlikely that you will come across an adult novice swimmer who has materially better natural swim ability than I have.

    So I would have to generally agree with your position that you're very unlikely to find someone who came to swimming as an adult who can go sub 2:00 200.  I know I could not come close to holding that pace for a 200.  A 1:00 100 I'd have a very good shot at.  But I havent done it, so I can't claim it.

    As for discussion of strokes per length, versus turnover, I average 13 strokes per 25 yards.  I could use improved turnover to get faster too, but it takes a whole lot of wind.  I 've gotten faster by being more efficient.  I found watching videos of Sun Yang in the Olympics to be very helpful.  The guy went sub 15 min for the 1500 meters with a very slow turnover.  I try to mimic that.

    That's great work! 

    H2O - I've swam masters before.....I'll still stick by my statement.  Let's say you can find 1 out of 1000 people who learned to swim as an adult who can go under 2:00 for 200.....statistically, that's pretty close to zero...and you know 1 out of 1000 is being WAY, WAY generous.  Rememebr, I'm not talking about adult swimmers....I'm talking about people who learned to swim as an adult.

    My original point was that balance in the water is something learned very well/easy by kids, not so for adults learning to swim.  I haven't seen anything to change my mind.



    Edited by Left Brain 2013-06-14 2:11 PM
    2013-06-14 2:40 PM
    in reply to: Left Brain

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    Subject: RE: Swim form and cadence?

    I just looked up the qualifying times for US Masters Swimming nationals in the 200 free SCY. 

    For men in age groups 35-39, 40-44, and 45-49, 2:00 would qualify as each QT is between 2:00 and 2:02.  For 50-54 its about 2:05, for 55-59 about 2:10.

    For women, 2:00 would qualify for any and all age groups.  For ages 30-49, it was about 2:16 with a slight blip for 35-39 at around 2:19.

    This is further support for Left Brain's contention that you're very unlikely to find novice adults developing into sub 2:00 200 swimmers.   I don't know if USMS does a study on the backgrounds of their nationals participants, but I'd find it really unlikely that (m)any were non-competitive swimmers as youths.



    2013-06-14 2:57 PM
    in reply to: Ridgelake

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    Subject: RE: Swim form and cadence?
    Originally posted by Ridgelake

    I just looked up the qualifying times for US Masters Swimming nationals in the 200 free SCY. 

    For men in age groups 35-39, 40-44, and 45-49, 2:00 would qualify as each QT is between 2:00 and 2:02.  For 50-54 its about 2:05, for 55-59 about 2:10.

    For women, 2:00 would qualify for any and all age groups.  For ages 30-49, it was about 2:16 with a slight blip for 35-39 at around 2:19.

    This is further support for Left Brain's contention that you're very unlikely to find novice adults developing into sub 2:00 200 swimmers.   I don't know if USMS does a study on the backgrounds of their nationals participants, but I'd find it really unlikely that (m)any were non-competitive swimmers as youths.

    Somewhere or other the training load was brought up. How does that of the adult onset compare to the kids? A few masters sessions a week doesn't really sound like much work compared to what the kids might do, but I'm not sure how much they would need to get reach that mark. The masters swimmer could be doing more outside, but will that be as effective as the team environment the kid is on? I'm still of the thought that it's better to develop as a kid, but wondering how much of the disparity is due to things like this.

    2013-06-14 3:13 PM
    in reply to: brigby1

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    Subject: RE: Swim form and cadence?
    Originally posted by brigby1
    Originally posted by Ridgelake

    I just looked up the qualifying times for US Masters Swimming nationals in the 200 free SCY. 

    For men in age groups 35-39, 40-44, and 45-49, 2:00 would qualify as each QT is between 2:00 and 2:02.  For 50-54 its about 2:05, for 55-59 about 2:10.

    For women, 2:00 would qualify for any and all age groups.  For ages 30-49, it was about 2:16 with a slight blip for 35-39 at around 2:19.

    This is further support for Left Brain's contention that you're very unlikely to find novice adults developing into sub 2:00 200 swimmers.   I don't know if USMS does a study on the backgrounds of their nationals participants, but I'd find it really unlikely that (m)any were non-competitive swimmers as youths.

    Somewhere or other the training load was brought up. How does that of the adult onset compare to the kids? A few masters sessions a week doesn't really sound like much work compared to what the kids might do, but I'm not sure how much they would need to get reach that mark. The masters swimmer could be doing more outside, but will that be as effective as the team environment the kid is on? I'm still of the thought that it's better to develop as a kid, but wondering how much of the disparity is due to things like this.

    My son swam right at 40,000M this week.....8 sessions.  The load for his group is not that large during short course season when they have schoolwork and other obligations, like cross country and track for my son, but during the summer long course they hit it pretty good.  He can't get in every week like this one because he has triathlon races and camps, but I know he averages  25,000 - 30,000 per week easily....that's an idea of the load they are swimming, for those who don't have any idea what the swim club kids are doing.

    2013-06-14 3:19 PM
    in reply to: brigby1

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    Subject: RE: Swim form and cadence?
    Originally posted by brigby1
    Originally posted by Ridgelake

    I just looked up the qualifying times for US Masters Swimming nationals in the 200 free SCY. 

    For men in age groups 35-39, 40-44, and 45-49, 2:00 would qualify as each QT is between 2:00 and 2:02.  For 50-54 its about 2:05, for 55-59 about 2:10.

    For women, 2:00 would qualify for any and all age groups.  For ages 30-49, it was about 2:16 with a slight blip for 35-39 at around 2:19.

    This is further support for Left Brain's contention that you're very unlikely to find novice adults developing into sub 2:00 200 swimmers.   I don't know if USMS does a study on the backgrounds of their nationals participants, but I'd find it really unlikely that (m)any were non-competitive swimmers as youths.

    Somewhere or other the training load was brought up. How does that of the adult onset compare to the kids? A few masters sessions a week doesn't really sound like much work compared to what the kids might do, but I'm not sure how much they would need to get reach that mark. The masters swimmer could be doing more outside, but will that be as effective as the team environment the kid is on? I'm still of the thought that it's better to develop as a kid, but wondering how much of the disparity is due to things like this.

    I've swum with a couple different masters groups.  One met 2 or 3 times per week.  The other all 7 days but its rare to find someone swim more than 4x or 5x per week.  Typical session is 1.5 hours.  Yardage varies depending on the workout, but from anything from 3000 yards (sprint focus day) to over 5000 yards (distance day).  Say 4000 to 4500 on average.

    So a masters swimmer who's competitive at a Nationals level is probably swimming 4x per week at 4000 to 4500 per day, or maybe 16,000 to 20,000 yards per week.  Yes, there's probably a ramp up prior to competition above that.  My understanding of high school and college competitive swimming is that they often do about 10K yards per day, so perhaps close to 50K yards per week.

    An adult competitive swimmer is probably doing half what a competitive youth is swimming.  And even that level is a lot for an adult with kids, a job, etc., not to mention an aging body that doesnt recover nearly as quickly as it once did.  I know that my body breaks down when doing more than 3 masters sessions per week. 

    2013-06-14 9:30 PM
    in reply to: Goosedog

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    Subject: RE: Swim form and cadence?

    Originally posted by Goosedog
    Originally posted by Left Brain .....but I have come to realize that truly good swimming, like yours, is a product of learning the basics at a very young age....and I don't care what anyone says, it's all about being balanced in the water. (as you said)   
    I'm starting to get a glimpse into this world. The 7yo got invited to swim on his club's competitive 9&U team. It's amazing watching those little kids circle swim. I only got to hear a brief second of their workout once when they switched to an outdoor pool for summer (I'm usually began the glass in the observation room), and the coach barked out "Alright, 50 free on the bottom." I'm an adult onset swimmer, so I'm amazed at how ingrained all this becomes when they swim from such a young age. What's even crazier is watching the year round kids swim summer league. Few things give me a bigger grin than watching the boy's fly underwaters for about 12 meters, as the other kids are 3-4 strokes in, only to have him then pop up in the lead.

    Dude...if that pic is of your 7 year old....that is friggin AWESOME!!

    2013-06-14 10:31 PM
    in reply to: Left Brain

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    Subject: RE: Swim form and cadence?
    Originally posted by Left Brain

    Dude...if that pic is of your 7 year old....that is friggin AWESOME!!




    He still likes to wear the underwears on his head.



    2013-06-14 11:37 PM
    in reply to: 0

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    Subject: RE: Swim form and cadence?

    I know this won't change your mind, and not to beat a dead horse . . . ok I'm beating it, but that's one of my favorite pastimes.

    By "adult" I think the appropriate age is anyone over 18.

    Having a feel for the water does not make you fast, but it makes you efficient. As for being former college swimmers it depends on how long you have been out. There is a guy who swims open water races around here and he was an Olympian. He’s in his 70’s and he takes no prisoners. He beat me once at one mile when I returned to competitive athletics doing triathlons. On the other hand I regularly beat a 5 time Olympic gold medalist, many time world record holder and a gazillion other awards, well at least at anything over a 100 (he’s in his late 60’s with a very serious back problem)

    Times for swimming 50 yd have absolutely nothing to do with swimming a 200. How many elite swimmers have you ever seen competing at both? (unless the coach is just screwing with their mind). In the past (I mean way in the past) I was sort of competitive in the 200 Masters races, but would get laughed out of the pool if I did a 50. I didn’t start being really competitive until you got to 400m/500yd.

    Masters national qualifying times are soft. Masters tried for years to not have qualifying times, but the meets got too big. It’s better look at how fast the best go to get an idea what the rest of us do. 2012 Mens USMS Top Ten times for 200 yd (fastest/slowest) rounded to the nearest second:

    18 - 24     1:42/1:49

    25 - 29     1:40/1:46

    30 - 34     1:41/1:48

    35 - 39     1:46/1:49

    40 - 44     1:46/1:51

    45 - 49     1:46/1:51

    50 - 54     1:50/1:56

    55 - 59     1:52/2:00

    60 - 64     1:54/2:05

    65 - 69     2:05/2:17

    70 - 74     2:09/2:34

    75 - 79     2:25/2:46

    Each and every one of these guys are monsters as far as I’m concerned, but there is definitely a price to be paid for getting older. However, swimming a 200 in the 1:40’s (at any age) is pretty damn impressive, To put it in perspective the winner at the NCAA’s this year swam it in 1:31. That is not just 29 seconds faster than 2:00. It’s astronomically faster. The force required to overcome drag is the difference in velocity of the object to the third power. I feel confident in saying that all of these guys learned as a child, and swam for many, many years, are highly efficient and create much less drag in the water than we turtles.

    As for yardage swam, it only tells half the story. It is what you are doing while swimming those yards. 100 X 100 with 1:00 between each 100 or 5 seconds between each one. Then there is the question of age. This past month I swam more yards than I have ever in my life (174K - a complete fluke. 100K to 130K is more like it), but I am training for a couple of long swims so I swim slowly for many of my work outs working on strength and efficiency. 

    Also as you get older it takes longer to recover so swimmers tend to swim less. It’s very easy to over train once you get to 50 and above. If you don’t rest properly you’ll get slower. Younger swimmers swim many more yards, and of course go much faster.

    You don’t have to start swimming fast as kid to learn how to swim fast as an adult. I didn’t have a competitive swimming background when I stood on the blocks to try out for the high school team as a 10th grader. In fact all I had was a couple of lessons at a beach when I was 5, and a lot of years just playing in the community pool for hours. I swam a 34.4. The coach took me in the office and started to explain to me why he didn’t have room on the squad for me. I politely begged (or cried I can’t remember which) and he let me on. Five months later I swam a 25.4. Did I have a good feel for the water? I suppose. But what I did have was a burning desire to prove the coach wrong. It is this same mental attitude that I have seen in adult onset swimmers (I love that term), and which drives them to swim fast. It’s just a matter of your commitment, hard work & perseverance, and most importantly if you have a burning desire. I lost that desire after high school and didn’t go back in for a decade, but came back at 29 with a burning desire and swam the fastest in my life.

    As for strokes per length I’ve always been around 19. There is no magic number. If I had the wing span and kick of Sun Yang I could probably do 12 - 13 per 25 yd. I think Sun Yang would 5 to 7 without pushing off the wall in a 25 yd pool. His stroke is amazing.

    And no, I cannot swim 200 yd in 2:00. I haven't been able since I stopped competing in the 1980's. It's why I marathon swim. I'm just too slow to swim anything shorter than a 5K. On the plus side, I do get a senior discount at my local pool.

     



    Edited by E=H2O 2013-06-14 11:41 PM
    2013-06-15 8:46 PM
    in reply to: E=H2O

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    Subject: RE: Swim form and cadence?
    Originally posted by E=H2O

    I know this won't change your mind, and not to beat a dead horse . . . ok I'm beating it, but that's one of my favorite pastimes.

    By "adult" I think the appropriate age is anyone over 18.

    Having a feel for the water does not make you fast, but it makes you efficient. As for being former college swimmers it depends on how long you have been out. There is a guy who swims open water races around here and he was an Olympian. He’s in his 70’s and he takes no prisoners. He beat me once at one mile when I returned to competitive athletics doing triathlons. On the other hand I regularly beat a 5 time Olympic gold medalist, many time world record holder and a gazillion other awards, well at least at anything over a 100 (he’s in his late 60’s with a very serious back problem)

    Times for swimming 50 yd have absolutely nothing to do with swimming a 200. How many elite swimmers have you ever seen competing at both? (unless the coach is just screwing with their mind). In the past (I mean way in the past) I was sort of competitive in the 200 Masters races, but would get laughed out of the pool if I did a 50. I didn’t start being really competitive until you got to 400m/500yd.

    Masters national qualifying times are soft. Masters tried for years to not have qualifying times, but the meets got too big. It’s better look at how fast the best go to get an idea what the rest of us do. 2012 Mens USMS Top Ten times for 200 yd (fastest/slowest) rounded to the nearest second:

    18 - 24     1:42/1:49

    25 - 29     1:40/1:46

    30 - 34     1:41/1:48

    35 - 39     1:46/1:49

    40 - 44     1:46/1:51

    45 - 49     1:46/1:51

    50 - 54     1:50/1:56

    55 - 59     1:52/2:00

    60 - 64     1:54/2:05

    65 - 69     2:05/2:17

    70 - 74     2:09/2:34

    75 - 79     2:25/2:46

    Each and every one of these guys are monsters as far as I’m concerned, but there is definitely a price to be paid for getting older. However, swimming a 200 in the 1:40’s (at any age) is pretty damn impressive, To put it in perspective the winner at the NCAA’s this year swam it in 1:31. That is not just 29 seconds faster than 2:00. It’s astronomically faster. The force required to overcome drag is the difference in velocity of the object to the third power. I feel confident in saying that all of these guys learned as a child, and swam for many, many years, are highly efficient and create much less drag in the water than we turtles.

    As for yardage swam, it only tells half the story. It is what you are doing while swimming those yards. 100 X 100 with 1:00 between each 100 or 5 seconds between each one. Then there is the question of age. This past month I swam more yards than I have ever in my life (174K - a complete fluke. 100K to 130K is more like it), but I am training for a couple of long swims so I swim slowly for many of my work outs working on strength and efficiency. 

    Also as you get older it takes longer to recover so swimmers tend to swim less. It’s very easy to over train once you get to 50 and above. If you don’t rest properly you’ll get slower. Younger swimmers swim many more yards, and of course go much faster.

    You don’t have to start swimming fast as kid to learn how to swim fast as an adult. I didn’t have a competitive swimming background when I stood on the blocks to try out for the high school team as a 10th grader. In fact all I had was a couple of lessons at a beach when I was 5, and a lot of years just playing in the community pool for hours. I swam a 34.4. The coach took me in the office and started to explain to me why he didn’t have room on the squad for me. I politely begged (or cried I can’t remember which) and he let me on. Five months later I swam a 25.4. Did I have a good feel for the water? I suppose. But what I did have was a burning desire to prove the coach wrong. It is this same mental attitude that I have seen in adult onset swimmers (I love that term), and which drives them to swim fast. It’s just a matter of your commitment, hard work & perseverance, and most importantly if you have a burning desire. I lost that desire after high school and didn’t go back in for a decade, but came back at 29 with a burning desire and swam the fastest in my life.

    As for strokes per length I’ve always been around 19. There is no magic number. If I had the wing span and kick of Sun Yang I could probably do 12 - 13 per 25 yd. I think Sun Yang would 5 to 7 without pushing off the wall in a 25 yd pool. His stroke is amazing.

    And no, I cannot swim 200 yd in 2:00. I haven't been able since I stopped competing in the 1980's. It's why I marathon swim. I'm just too slow to swim anything shorter than a 5K. On the plus side, I do get a senior discount at my local pool.

     

    Stubborn bastage. Laughing  

    No....you haven't changed my mind with anything you have posted....but I'd admire your determination. Cool

    2013-06-15 9:58 PM
    in reply to: Goosedog

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    Subject: RE: Swim form and cadence?
    Originally posted by Goosedog
    Originally posted by Left Brain

    Dude...if that pic is of your 7 year old....that is friggin AWESOME!!

    He still likes to wear the underwears on his head.

    Can you get a pic of him with underwear on his head while he does the fly?  Because.....well.......that would be unbeatable. 

    2013-06-17 10:56 AM
    in reply to: 0

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    Subject: RE: Swim form and cadence?
    Originally posted by brigby1

    Somewhere or other the training load was brought up. How does that of the adult onset compare to the kids? A few masters sessions a week doesn't really sound like much work compared to what the kids might do, but I'm not sure how much they would need to get reach that mark. The masters swimmer could be doing more outside, but will that be as effective as the team environment the kid is on? I'm still of the thought that it's better to develop as a kid, but wondering how much of the disparity is due to things like this.


    Adults, generally, can't get the yardage/meterage that kids can because their schedules don't permit it. I currently do around 30,000 yards/week, whereas when I was deep in the heart of training for nationals (around 16 years old), I was doing around 90,000 - 110,000 yard/week. Other than school, kids don't really have much responsibility outside of household chores. Growing up, I literally swam for 3 hours, went to school, swam for three hours, went home and did homework, went to bed, repeat.

    If I tried having that schedule now, I'd be drop-dead tired by day 3.

    Edited by BostonSwim41 2013-06-17 10:56 AM
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