Olympic Nutrition (Page 3)

Originally posted by Chillin



Yep exactly. Like I said I know I don't need it, just that it doesn't hurt ME (and that I can get a little boost by it).



When I mentioned my marathon fueling example that was just a "for example", not actually meant to be directly comparable to oly nutrition (that was why I mentioned that I had taken gels 21 minutes apart on the bike at race pace with no ill effects).

But since you brought it up... Are they really not comparable?

Time? A "good" Oly Tri time is ~2:00, a "good" marathon time is ~2:10 so time wise they are clearly similar.
Intensity/HR? The largest chunk of time on a tri is spent on the bike which pretty universally averages lower HR than running (also there is not two 2 minute "breaks" (T1 & T2) in a marathon. So based on that the avg HR on a marathon should be higher than an oly.
Stress on the GI system? It is generally agreed that eating on the bike is easier on the GI system than eating while running (and we were talking about eating on the bike during an oly vs. while running a marathon).

So overall a marathon is slightly longer, at slightly higher intensity and is overall harder on the GI system... So my example of eating way more than was recommended without any ill effects while running a marathon was actually more relevant that I meant it to be. No? Or is there something I'm missing?

Originally posted by rjrankin83



Who here is doing 2:00 Oly's and 2:10 marathon's? A 2:00 Oly is a VERY good time and a 2:10 marathon would have gotten you 4th in London 2012 Olympics.

I agree the HR on the bike is usually lower than running: HOWEVER in an OLY "I" usually redline most of the race so my HR on the bike is going to be higher than my HR for the majority of a marathon.

You shouldn't be taking 2 minutes in transition, and they surely shouldn't be "breaks".

I'd have to double check but I'm almost positive my avg HR is higher in an OLY than a marathon but could be wrong.

If done properly I feel equally tired, if not more so, after completing an OLY than I do after completing a marathon even though the marathon would take me a little over an hour longer.

The intensity levels are not even close between an OLY and a marathon. If they are you're pacing your OLY too slow.

These are just my personal observations. I'm no coach

Originally posted by Chillin"You shouldn't be taking 2 minutes in transition, and they surely shouldn't be "breaks" " Haha, I was just joking using that word, but they are intensity breaks. Meaning your HR does go down in transition right?"I'd have to double check but I'm almost positive my avg HR is higher in an OLY than a marathon but could be wrong." I'd actually be very interested in hearing what sport distance has a higher avg HR, but I haven't been able to find any real info on this"the marathon would take me a little over an hour longer. The intensity levels are not even close between an OLY and a marathon. If they are you're pacing your OLY too slow." If your marathon is taking you over an hour longer than your oly than I'd say you are pacing your marathon too slow.

Originally posted by TriMyBest

Transition isn't a break. It's an opportunity to gain free time on the competition. Running through transition in about 1:00 won't result in any significant change in HR. The average age grouper is going to see +/- one hour difference between their oly and marathon times. Using myself as an example, I'm a 2:30+ oly triathlete, but a 3:00 marathon would be out of the question and I'd have my work cut out for me trying to hit 3:30. In the end, it comes down to intensity as a % of LT. That hour difference in race duration necessitates a lower % of LT for a successful marathon compared to an oly. Again, one of the largest factors in ability to digest food is relative intensity.

Originally posted by Chillin

Yep exactly. Like I said I know I don't need it, just that it doesn't hurt ME (and that I can get a little boost by it).

When I mentioned my marathon fueling example that was just a "for example", not actually meant to be directly comparable to oly nutrition (that was why I mentioned that I had taken gels 21 minutes apart on the bike at race pace with no ill effects).

But since you brought it up... Are they really not comparable?

Time? A "good" Oly Tri time is ~2:00, a "good" marathon time is ~2:10 so time wise they are clearly similar.

Intensity/HR? The largest chunk of time on a tri is spent on the bike which pretty universally averages lower HR than running (also there is not two 2 minute "breaks" (T1 & T2) in a marathon. So based on that the avg HR on a marathon should be higher than an oly.

Stress on the GI system? It is generally agreed that eating on the bike is easier on the GI system than eating while running (and we were talking about eating on the bike during an oly vs. while running a marathon).

So overall a marathon is slightly longer, at slightly higher intensity and is overall harder on the GI system... So my example of eating way more than was recommended without any ill effects while running a marathon was actually more relevant that I meant it to be. No? Or is there something I'm missing?

Originally posted by gsmacleod



As I mentioned earlier, an issue with this is that athletes rarely give a true 40km effort, at oly distance intensity on the bike. An oly bike is races just under threshold (90-95%) depending on the athlete and that's not an easy training session. So while it may work in training, you likely will be working a bit harder in a race and it may just be too much. Combine this with the transition from swimming to running to biking which tends to mess with you stomach a bit and the amount you should take in while likely decrease evn further.

There will be an optimal amount and taking more or less will not instantly destroy one's race but when you start to get away from the norms by a significant amount (like almost double whatmost would be able to handle) you are certainly playing with fire.



No.



World class oly - <1:45 with only 30 minutes of running
Wold class marathon - <2:10



HR would need to be normalized acorss the sports to give any insight into intensity through a triathlon but here's what you would expect for a well paced event:

Oly - swim just below threshold, bike just below threshold, run at threshod
Marathon - below threshold throughout (about 5-10% slower pace depending on the athlete)



While it is true that eating on the bike is easier, the intensity of the bike leg also plays an important role and when one considers a fueling plan, how hard one is racing is always an important factor.



A marathon will always be raced at a lower intensity than an oly (assuming an athlete is racing both). A better comparison would be oly and half marathon for most.

Shane

Originally posted by Chillin  Well again I was joking calling it a break but at the same time you Are giving your heart at least a minimal break. I don't think it is wrong to assume most people will see at least Some decrease in HR while taking off their wetsuit, etc. A minimal drop no doubt, but a drop nonetheless. From what I have seen the difference between Oly and Marathon times for the average person is more in the 40-45 minute range not an hour. But I'll concede it may be closer to an hour if you say so. Just looking at HR which event do you think has an overall higher HR an Oly or a Marathon? Since that is the only tool available to the average user to measure intensity and the biggest overall factor in your ability to ingest food.

Originally posted by Chillin

Why would you say that at Oly would be run at just below threshold for the first 3/4 and then at threshold for the remaining 1/4, while a marathon would be run below threshold thoughout? Why would you not run the marathon harder at the end as well? If you are not you are not really racing you are just jogging?

Originally posted by Chillin



"You shouldn't be taking 2 minutes in transition, and they surely shouldn't be "breaks" " Haha, I was just joking using that word, but they are intensity breaks. Meaning your HR does go down in transition right?

"I'd have to double check but I'm almost positive my avg HR is higher in an OLY than a marathon but could be wrong." I'd actually be very interested in hearing what sport distance has a higher avg HR, but I haven't been able to find any real info on this

"the marathon would take me a little over an hour longer. The intensity levels are not even close between an OLY and a marathon. If they are you're pacing your OLY too slow." If your marathon is taking you over an hour longer than your oly than I'd say you are pacing your marathon too slow.

Originally posted by yazmaster

Off topic, but I def go significantly aerobically harder in an Oly, on all legs of it.

That said, the marathon, because of the pounding will do wayyyy more damage to me than any Oly, regardless of how hard I go on it. 26.2 of running, even if you're in peak shape for yourself, is a serious pounding session that will take weeks, if not months to fully recover from if you raced it all-out.

IN contrast, I can race an Oly every week, all out, no problemo, no injury.

Originally posted by TriMyBest

You're still missing the point.  It's not about the average HR for the oly overall vs the average HR for a marathon.  It's the average for the marathon vs the oly run.  During an oly run, your GI tract is going to be quicker to shut down than during a marathon, because it's at a much higher intensity.  If you've dumped too much food down there during the bike, causing GI shut down, your body is going to get rid of the extra any way it can.

 

Originally posted by rjrankin83



My HR doesn't go down at all in transition. This is by no means a break. Those that think it is lose podiums to those that treat this as part of the race (like it is)

I don't like racing with my HR monitor on so I don't but will tell you that my avg HR over an OLY distance race is more than likely equal to or above that of my marathon avg HR

My fastest OLY is 2:12 and my fastest marathon (6 months ago) is 3:26. Each was raced to the best of my ability at the time. I'd like to go sub 3:05 this Feb for a BQ time but even then I don't see my OLY equaling 2:05. When you've done more than 1 triathlon maybe you'll have a better idea of what it is that everyone is telling you

Originally posted by Chillin

No I am not missing the point. I was simply asking a question because I was curious. I was the one that brought it up so that is the only "point" here anyone answering other than that is missing the point. Just curious which event has an overall higher avg HR. That's it, that's all.

Originally posted by gsmacleod



HR is okay (not great) measure of aerobic strain on the body but it is not useful to determine what you are trying to measure.

Trying to compare the average HR over a triathlon to that of a run race is completely meaningless. As I said before, the HR's would have to be normalized so you could even attempt to make a meaningful comparison.

Shane

Originally posted by Chillin

You are, of course, correct, but I was simply asking out of curiosity not to make some sort of half baked training plan with it.

Originally posted by gsmacleod



Because there are distinct segments and while one could aim to maintain intensity evenly thoughout a triathlon, this is not the best pacing strategy. Due to the fact that the swim is in water and the bike is at higher speeds, there is little benefit to going harder on the swim and bike but rather pacing to be able to drop the hammer on the run.

The kick of a marathon may build to or be slightly above threshold but in an oly, it will be pretty much run at threshold throughout (around half mary pace for most).

Shane

Originally posted by gsmacleod



But why are you trying to have a discussion about the intensity levels of a marathon versus an oly based on HR if you know it is meaningless?

Bottom line - oly is just below threshold (on average) for most while a marathon will be at least 10% slower than threshold pace for most.

Shane

Originally posted by gsmacleod



But why are you trying to have a discussion about the intensity levels of a marathon versus an oly based on HR if you know it is meaningless?

Bottom line - oly is just below threshold (on average) for most while a marathon will be at least 10% slower than threshold pace for most.

Shane

Originally posted by Chillin



First let me say I'm not disputing what you are saying just trying to increase my knowledge...

You say that Olys are not comparable to HMs than full marathons in intensity but looking at the WR times
Half: ~58 mins
Full: ~2:05
Oly: 1:45
(assuming times scale up approximately linearly from there... (they do for me personally))

Clearly time wise olys are much closer to fulls than to half's, so shouldn't the intensity be closer to full? Or do you say that because of the effect on the body from the multiple events? Or somethjng else?

Originally posted by Chillin No I am not missing the point. I was simply asking a question because I was curious. I was the one that brought it up so that is the only "point" here anyone answering other than that is missing the point. Just curious which event has an overall higher avg HR. That's it, that's all.

Originally posted by rjrankin83

Haha sorry OP for the turn this seems to have taken. My apologies

Originally posted by Chillin

First let me say I'm not disputing what you are saying just trying to increase my knowledge...

You say that Olys are not comparable to HMs than full marathons in intensity but looking at the WR times
Half: ~58 mins
Full: ~2:05
Oly: 1:45
(assuming times scale up approximately linearly from there... (they do for me personally))

Clearly time wise olys are much closer to fulls than to half's, so shouldn't the intensity be closer to full? Or do you say that because of the effect on the body from the multiple events? Or somethjng else?