Weight training for improving biking? (Page 2)

Shane - what about draft legal racing on very technical courses.  A lot of riders are spit out the back of the back after a turn when the pack will normally "jump" to try and drop riders....at least at the Jr. level.  All other training staying the same, wouldn't a racer who is lacking the fast twitch muscles for those jumps benefit from weight training?  Your talking about 15-20 of those mini-sprints in a 12 mile race.

It's not necessarily a zero-sum game.  If someone can do both (ride more AND lift weights) ... should they?  Or is that hour in the weight room a waste.

They should ride more crits

I don't think anyone's saying weight training is useless.  Just that on a limited time budget, it should be lower priority.

Originally posted by gsmacleod Shane

Looking at this graph again... this is NOT a measure of strength vs endurance.    This is a measure of MAX short-time power compared to a longer power output.

I'd rather see something like a one-rep max in the squat (possibly normalized by bodyweight as in the above graph) ... something that measures STRENGTH rather than POWER (strength x speed)   Is there any data like that out there?

If we knew the gearing and cadence used to generate the above graph... we could probably tease out the strength data... or at least see who was using high-torque/low-speed instead of low-torque/high-speed. 

  Shane, is this your dataset, or do you know how to get the raw data?

I don't really have an opinion about what anyone is saying yet.....I'm still asking questions and reading material on the issue.

Get ready, because next I'm going to start asking about the type of weight training.

Are you talking to me?   Let's look at the stairs explanation. 

First off, the author is clearly writing this for a SCIENCE class, not a fitness class.   He/She makes a few blunders in the opening paragraph that make this example not-so-useful in our case.  In the first paragraph, they start talking about bigger/smaller muscles, but then go on to muddy the waters by saying "Smaller muscles that are properly toned can generate larger amounts of power than larger muscles that are not properly toned."  IMHO, the author is essentially saying:  "Stronger muscles can make more power." 

In the second paragraph, the author states: "Power is the rate at which work is done. The greater the power, the more work that can be done."   Ummm... NO. (when you're considering the source of the power)  Work is a measure of Force x Distance,  Power is the rate at which you are doing work.    Work comes first, then power.  No Work, no Power.  Ever.  

In the third paragraph, the author states: "The greater the number of watts an athlete can generate, the stronger they will be in sports." This is nominally true.   Like the graph Shane shared above, the watts probably need to be normalized  by body weight.   From a dead stop, A 400kg sprinter making 400 watts is traveling much slower after 100m than a 100kg sprinter making 400 watts. 

Ultimately, it's a poor example.  In fact, when I was in high school we did this very experiment. We were all running up the stairs to see who generated the most POWER.  I was reasonably fit, but not extremely so.  I also weight about 180 pounds.  I could probably run a 9:00 mile, flat out.   My buddy was a year younger than me, and could run a 4:30 mile.  He also weight about a buck twenty.  He got SO ANGRY that he couldn't generate as much power as me.  He was not in our physics class, so he didn't understand that I was framing the competition in my favor.  His time was slightly faster than mine, but I was stronger, and heavier, and able to put forth a few good seconds of effort.   So the POWER calculation always went in my favor.  Thankfully it was only 1 flight of stairs, not 5!!!

You missed Shane's post.

Originally posted by gsmacleod Shane

What can be gleaned from this plot with nearly a zero slope slope and an R² value way down at 0.1196? Not trying to be snooty, just trying to figure out what the data being represented is supposed to mean.

Thank you for the reply and explanation.  I can see the short-term power as a stand-in for strength.    I had to google MMP, which I assume in this case means "Minute Maximum Power" and the 5s is just the "peak" from that test?

With the small R² value and such a small population I don't even think we can say that. Without knowing more about the study and data I think the only thing we can say is that this particular study shows no correlation between strength and endurance, not that there is not correlation. I wonder if anyone has done the same research with significantly more sampling.

This.  For most people, there would be more to gain from sport specific training than lifting weights.  I don't have room in my schedule for a weight workout, and I'd love to see what a coach would recommend I drop for it.

Obviously, I'm asking and looking into this for my son.  He has lots of time.  He's running cross country and swimming 6 days a week, but he doesn't work, and he's taking a break from cycling while he's building and working on his running and swimming again.  So while he's not cycling, can he get any benefit from a good weight program involving his legs?  Does that cross over at all into better cycling when he picks the bike back up around January? Will it hinder his running once track season comes around? 

It looks like I'm reading "no" on the benefit side based on the idea that strength and endurance don't intersect...... I'm just having a hard time with that idea because my own personal experience has been the opposite.....but I'm nowhere near the level that my kid is, so I have no idea if my experience applies to him.