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11 Speed vs 10 speed
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 2013-10-19 1:50 PM |
Champion  6503    NOVA - Ironic for an Endurance Athlete |  Subject: 11 Speed vs 10 speedReally? Anyone see a huge advantage for most of us? Maybe I should start developing a 12 speed. Or at least a triple that works well. |
| 2013-10-19 2:10 PM in reply to: #4880460 |
Champion 9407  Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: 11 Speed vs 10 speed Huge advantage? No but there were people who said the same from 7 to 8, from 8 to 9 and from 9 to 10. I think some will find a benefit if they are running cassettes like 12-25 or 27 as they will have an easier time finding the sweet spot with one extra cog in the middle of the cassette. Besides, now our cassettes go to 11 so they must be louder - uh, I mean faster. Shane |
| 2013-10-19 4:00 PM in reply to: pga_mike |
Champion 16151 Checkin' out the podium girls | Subject: RE: 11 Speed vs 10 speed |
| 2013-10-19 4:03 PM in reply to: pitt83 |
Champion 16151 Checkin' out the podium girls | Subject: RE: 11 Speed vs 10 speed In all sincerity, to fit the cluster on the rear hub, they keep reducing chain width and, with 11 speed, have a longer free hub thereby increasing the dish of the wheel. Eventually, torque will either cause more spoke failure from a more uneven dished wheel and chains will snap from being weaker and more narrow. Somewhere there's a limit of performance versus durability and I worry durability is being compromised. |
| 2013-10-19 9:45 PM in reply to: pga_mike |
Pro 5361 | Subject: RE: 11 Speed vs 10 speed Depends on the terrain you ride and what kind of cassette. I'm weak and do a lot of hills, and use an 11-28. I don't want to give up any of that range, as I use it all every ride. Problem is, there's a big 'hole' in the gearing where the '16' cog should be but isn't. Frankly- I know for a fact that I'd love an extra gear. it would benefit me. If you're running a 12-21 on the back and live in Florida. Probably a waste. but- hey, you can turn it up to '11'. |
more is better. I want| 2013-10-20 6:24 PM in reply to: pitt83 |
Pro 6582 Melbourne FL Gold member | Subject: RE: 11 Speed vs 10 speed Originally posted by pitt83 In all sincerity, to fit the cluster on the rear hub, they keep reducing chain width and, with 11 speed, have a longer free hub thereby increasing the dish of the wheel. Eventually, torque will either cause more spoke failure from a more uneven dished wheel and chains will snap from being weaker and more narrow. Somewhere there's a limit of performance versus durability and I worry durability is being compromised. I just bought a 11-speed Ultegra 6800 groupset. In reseach I did not find any reliability issues with it or the DA version. Nothing about spoke failures and when I talked to my LBS about modifying my rear wheel they said no problem doing it and they've done several in the past year. Many wheels are now 11 speed compatible. As far as the shimano chains go, again haven't heard of any issues yet and can't refute Competitive Cyclist description: " In fact, while decreasing the width and materials of the chain, the CN-6800 (also DA CN-9000) manages to be 20% more durable than 6700 (also DA 7900)" Why did I go 11 speed, great sale on Competitive Cyclist made it hard to ignore!
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| 2013-10-20 8:56 PM in reply to: pitt83 |
| Subject: RE: 11 Speed vs 10 speed Originally posted by pitt83 In all sincerity, to fit the cluster on the rear hub, they keep reducing chain width and, with 11 speed, have a longer free hub thereby increasing the dish of the wheel. Eventually, torque will either cause more spoke failure from a more uneven dished wheel and chains will snap from being weaker and more narrow. Somewhere there's a limit of performance versus durability and I worry durability is being compromised. I think something else you will see is a greater ability for premature chain wear and breakage by getting it in the Big Little or Little Big,,,, more angle, thinner chain, something going to give. |
| 2013-10-20 10:25 PM in reply to: #4880462 |
| 14 | Subject: RE: 11 Speed vs 10 speed Its not the strength of the chain that I'm worried about, but as other posters mentioned, our number of gears on a free hub body have grown from 8, to 9, 10 and now 11, it has increased the dish of our rear wheels which does make them weaker. I've built a number of 11 speed groups and there are pluses and minuses to each. One thing I like about the 11speed are the semi compact crankset options that are readily available. For our hilly terrain out in western CO, a 52-36 crankset is a really good match for a lot of riders. As far as setup goes, I was very impressed with the new Shimano Dura Ace 9000 -- it requires very low cable tension to actuate shifts. Low tension means the system stays in tune longer and with fewer mis-shifts. The Campy 11 speed (pretty much any level - Super Record, Record, Chorus) has always been brilliant -- it is a pleasure to build up. The new SRAM Red 22 also sets up easily - as long as you follow the directions for the front derailleur. I was not very impressed with the new Ultegra 11 speed (6800) at least from the standpoint of how it builds. It still offers great gearing combinations, and the brakes are dynamite, but I've found it requires more cable tension adjustment (front and rear der) than a new group ought to |
| 2013-10-21 8:35 AM in reply to: #4880951 |
Pro 5892 , New Hampshire | Subject: RE: 11 Speed vs 10 speed Campy 11 has the same width as the 10, so no issue with new hubs, the fear if breaking spokes etc. I would say that the difference is greater between campy 11 and 10 than what it was from 9 to 10... It just works amazingly well. The benefit of an extra cog is either a closer ratio or one additional cog up or down. 12-27 is a great example, all the benefits of the 12-25 but with an extra escape gear for the steepest and longest climbs. |
| 2013-10-21 8:42 AM in reply to: Donto |
Champion 16151 Checkin' out the podium girls | Subject: RE: 11 Speed vs 10 speed Originally posted by Donto Originally posted by pitt83 In all sincerity, to fit the cluster on the rear hub, they keep reducing chain width and, with 11 speed, have a longer free hub thereby increasing the dish of the wheel. Eventually, torque will either cause more spoke failure from a more uneven dished wheel and chains will snap from being weaker and more narrow. Somewhere there's a limit of performance versus durability and I worry durability is being compromised. I just bought a 11-speed Ultegra 6800 groupset. In reseach I did not find any reliability issues with it or the DA version. Nothing about spoke failures and when I talked to my LBS about modifying my rear wheel they said no problem doing it and they've done several in the past year. Many wheels are now 11 speed compatible. As far as the shimano chains go, again haven't heard of any issues yet and can't refute Competitive Cyclist description: " In fact, while decreasing the width and materials of the chain, the CN-6800 (also DA CN-9000) manages to be 20% more durable than 6700 (also DA 7900)" Why did I go 11 speed, great sale on Competitive Cyclist made it hard to ignore!
I like CC, but I simply don't buy it. Narrower chains, necessary, have less materials, hence, must be subject to more stress. Smaller pins means you're ovalizing the hole in the chain plates. Thinner plates means more side to side twisting. Unless they're using a new alloy for plate materials (I doubt this highly) which is significantly stronger, that chain will fail under load. Mind you,;I'm 250lbs and can put out a peak 1100 watts. So I worry about snapping a chain far more that a little whippet would. |
| 2013-10-21 8:59 AM in reply to: pitt83 |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: 11 Speed vs 10 speed Originally posted by pitt83 Originally posted by Donto I like CC, but I simply don't buy it. Narrower chains, necessary, have less materials, hence, must be subject to more stress. Smaller pins means you're ovalizing the hole in the chain plates. Thinner plates means more side to side twisting. Unless they're using a new alloy for plate materials (I doubt this highly) which is significantly stronger, that chain will fail under load. Mind you,;I'm 250lbs and can put out a peak 1100 watts. So I worry about snapping a chain far more that a little whippet would. Originally posted by pitt83 In all sincerity, to fit the cluster on the rear hub, they keep reducing chain width and, with 11 speed, have a longer free hub thereby increasing the dish of the wheel. Eventually, torque will either cause more spoke failure from a more uneven dished wheel and chains will snap from being weaker and more narrow. Somewhere there's a limit of performance versus durability and I worry durability is being compromised. I just bought a 11-speed Ultegra 6800 groupset. In reseach I did not find any reliability issues with it or the DA version. Nothing about spoke failures and when I talked to my LBS about modifying my rear wheel they said no problem doing it and they've done several in the past year. Many wheels are now 11 speed compatible. As far as the shimano chains go, again haven't heard of any issues yet and can't refute Competitive Cyclist description: " In fact, while decreasing the width and materials of the chain, the CN-6800 (also DA CN-9000) manages to be 20% more durable than 6700 (also DA 7900)" Why did I go 11 speed, great sale on Competitive Cyclist made it hard to ignore!
And I'm 160 lbs and can put out 1280 watts, and I don't worry about snapping a chain. Is your chain made of paper? The pros are using the same components and they put out a great deal more than any AG triathlete. I wouldn't worry about the durability so much. |
 2013-10-21 9:05 AM in reply to: pga_mike |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2013-10-21 9:48 AM in reply to: pitt83 |
| Pro 5361 | Subject: RE: 11 Speed vs 10 speed Originally posted by pitt83 I like CC, but I simply don't buy it. Narrower chains, necessary, have less materials, hence, must be subject to more stress. Smaller pins means you're ovalizing the hole in the chain plates. Thinner plates means more side to side twisting. Unless they're using a new alloy for plate materials (I doubt this highly) which is significantly stronger, that chain will fail under load. Mind you,;I'm 250lbs and can put out a peak 1100 watts. So I worry about snapping a chain far more that a little whippet would. My DA chain has hollow pins. Perhaps the 11 speed version has thicker walls on those pins? I think you may underestimate the engineering design that goes into these things. Plus- Campy has been using 11 speed for a few years. Plus- the pro's use the latest tech. How often does Cavendish snap a chain in those final 1500 watt sprints? |
| 2013-10-21 10:06 AM in reply to: morey000 |
| Master 1927 Guilford, CT | Subject: RE: 11 Speed vs 10 speed Agree. I don't see a lot of guys snapping chains. Once in awhile it happens in a perfect storm but it isn't something with regular occurrence. Those engineers know what they are doing. The bigger upper category cyclists can basically double what most AG triathletes co. I wouldn't worry about it. I'd worry more about your wheels/spokes/frames if your a 'bigger' guy. The wheel and frame flex is a definitely a real issue. |
| 2013-10-21 11:59 AM in reply to: acumenjay |
| Pro 5361 | Subject: RE: 11 Speed vs 10 speed that said- chains to break. But generally it's for a reason that isn't due to the inherent strength of the chain. typically, something got bent, a stone got caught in just the wrong spot, the master link wasn't put on straight or somehow came loose. If you clean, inspect and lube your chain regularly- these things can be minimized. The reality is, that we want our bikes light and stiff, and yet, at the same time strong. There are limits and bigger guys should be aware. But I think they'll find that lighter doesn't always mean 'weaker'. "stiffer" doesn't even always mean 'stronger'. |
| 2013-10-21 12:09 PM in reply to: morey000 |
| Veteran 629 Grapevine, TX | Subject: RE: 11 Speed vs 10 speed Back to the OP question - I'm assuming that a few minutes is considered HUGE. If you tune your performance over long distances "riding hard over the flats" for an IM or HIM for example, an extra gear is a HUGE advantage. Sometimes that in-between gear just isn't there. Over short bursts, etc., maybe the advantage is less so, except if you get to a tough course say like Branson or Coeur D' Alene, where going down on the range for the uphills while still keeping a strong top end would be beneficial. But if you're that picky, you're getting to be like me, where I'm considering changing my entire cassette or even my crank for a given course. |
| 2013-10-25 7:20 PM in reply to: FranzZemen |
| Champion 6503 NOVA - Ironic for an Endurance Athlete | Subject: RE: 11 Speed vs 10 speed Originally posted by FranzZemen Back to the OP question - I'm assuming that a few minutes is considered HUGE. If you tune your performance over long distances "riding hard over the flats" for an IM or HIM for example, an extra gear is a HUGE advantage. Sometimes that in-between gear just isn't there. Over short bursts, etc., maybe the advantage is less so, except if you get to a tough course say like Branson or Coeur D' Alene, where going down on the range for the uphills while still keeping a strong top end would be beneficial. But if you're that picky, you're getting to be like me, where I'm considering changing my entire cassette or even my crank for a given course. I have recently joined the extra cassette crew with my 12/30 for Savageman. Never thought that I would be a multiple cassette guy, but here I am with 4 cassettes and 4 cranksets for 2 bikes. |
| 2013-10-25 7:31 PM in reply to: morey000 |
| Veteran 555 | Subject: RE: 11 Speed vs 10 speed Originally posted by morey000 Depends on the terrain you ride and what kind of cassette. I'm weak and do a lot of hills, and use an 11-28. I don't want to give up any of that range, as I use it all every ride. Problem is, there's a big 'hole' in the gearing where the '16' cog should be but isn't. Frankly- I know for a fact that I'd love an extra gear. it would benefit me. If you're running a 12-21 on the back and live in Florida. Probably a waste. but- hey, you can turn it up to '11'. +1 not important on flat land Ahem, "12-21" 11 speed? 1=12, 2=13, 3=14, 4=15, 5=16, 6=17, 7=18, 8=19, 9=20, 10=21... 11? I ran out of fingers! Sorry, I'm a math nerd, I couldn't 'let it go'. |
| 2013-10-25 8:09 PM in reply to: AtlantaBill |
| Subject: RE: 11 Speed vs 10 speed Originally posted by AtlantaBill Originally posted by morey000 Depends on the terrain you ride and what kind of cassette. I'm weak and do a lot of hills, and use an 11-28. I don't want to give up any of that range, as I use it all every ride. Problem is, there's a big 'hole' in the gearing where the '16' cog should be but isn't. Frankly- I know for a fact that I'd love an extra gear. it would benefit me. If you're running a 12-21 on the back and live in Florida. Probably a waste. but- hey, you can turn it up to '11'. +1 not important on flat land Ahem, "12-21" 11 speed? 1=12, 2=13, 3=14, 4=15, 5=16, 6=17, 7=18, 8=19, 9=20, 10=21... 11? I ran out of fingers! Sorry, I'm a math nerd, I couldn't 'let it go'. Go 11-21 so you have a bigger gear to sprint.  |
| 2013-10-25 11:23 PM in reply to: #4881028 |
| Pro 5892 , New Hampshire | Subject: RE: 11 Speed vs 10 speed A snapped chain doesn't really come from high peak power per se, but rather from poor maintenance cause the chain to lose flexibility which then causes it to snap. For example, Campy EPS claims that you can switch gears under full pro sprint power(ie over 2000W)... Not that necessarily want to, but you could... Basically, we really don't have anything to worry about... Modern chains are very strong... |
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