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2013-12-11 2:58 PM

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Elite
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Boise
Subject: WWBT do finance edition?
Well long story short, I bought a house a few years ago, right at the bottom of the market and it was a foreclosure. It wasn't listed properly initially and I ended up with a smoking deal including an extra lot and far more house than the bank realized. Now with the increase in the housing market I am considering selling it for a few reasons.

The big reason is to pay off some debt. My wife and I have a substantial amount of student loans between the two of us and I pay about 2/3 as much for the student loans as I do for the mortgage. Those payments will be for the next 10-20 years and will increase in the future based on the repayment plan.
Based on some of the prices I see houses going for around me, I think I could sell it and make enough profit off of it, to pay off the mortgage, student loans and my wife's car payment.

The other reason to sell, is if I do this, the amount of money we save will be equal to the amount of money my wife makes and she would be able to stay home with our son and soon to be 2nd son. I've got some numbers below, so I'm curious what BT has to say.

I'm basing all of this off of just my income. The things I would be saving money on by selling my house and renting instead, come out to about 70% of my take home income. If I were to then go and rent a house, it would amount to ~30% of my take home income. I would be saving 40% of my income which would offset the loss of my wife's income.

I'm torn about what to do here. I really like my house and have put a lot of work into it (which is just another thing I would be saving money on too, that's not included above). The plan would be to save up some money for a down payment on a new house in the future, maybe when the kids get to school age and my wife wants to work again. The biggest benefit would be paying off the student loans. We can scrape by for the next few years with my wife working odd jobs. That will probably suck though and will involve a lot of not seeing each other to make the childcare work out. To me this is like my winning lotto ticket to get out from under my loans.

Thoughts? Anything you can think of that I'm not thinking over clearly?


2013-12-11 3:29 PM
in reply to: JoshR

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Chicago, IL
Subject: RE: WWBT do finance edition?

Without getting into personal finance details, I just wanted to make a point that you may or may not have considered, regarding taxes.
Note: I know nothing about ID tax law, but these would be my considerations if/when I sell my condo here in IL.

Don't forget the tax implications of selling your house, and transitioning to a rental:
1. The taxes you'll need to pay on any gain you make in selling the property. This could diminish the proceeds, potentially preventing you from fully extinguishing the other debts.

2. When you're talking about %'s of your take home income, are you accounting for the tax implications of the deducibility of mortgage interest, and property taxes?
Since part of your tax refund each year is a result of those deductions. Say you get a $3,600 tax credit as a result of deducting your interest and taxes, that's a credit you WON'T receive when you rent ($300/mo).
If you go from paying $2,000/mo on a place you own, to paying $2,000/mo on a rental, you'll find yourself significantly out of pocket.

3. Is your wife currently on your health insurance? Or would you be going from single to family coverage?
Obviously this would impact your take home pay.

2013-12-11 3:41 PM
in reply to: 0

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Elite
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Boise
Subject: RE: WWBT do finance edition?
Originally posted by Brit Abroad

Without getting into personal finance details, I just wanted to make a point that you may or may not have considered, regarding taxes.
Note: I know nothing about ID tax law, but these would be my considerations if/when I sell my condo here in IL.

Don't forget the tax implications of selling your house, and transitioning to a rental:
1. The taxes you'll need to pay on any gain you make in selling the property. This could diminish the proceeds, potentially preventing you from fully extinguishing the other debts.

2. When you're talking about %'s of your take home income, are you accounting for the tax implications of the deducibility of mortgage interest, and property taxes?
Since part of your tax refund each year is a result of those deductions. Say you get a $3,600 tax credit as a result of deducting your interest and taxes, that's a credit you WON'T receive when you rent ($300/mo).
If you go from paying $2,000/mo on a place you own, to paying $2,000/mo on a rental, you'll find yourself significantly out of pocket.

3. Is your wife currently on your health insurance? Or would you be going from single to family coverage?
Obviously this would impact your take home pay.




Appreciate the input.

1) I'm still digging into all the details on this. I have included some fudge factor into the selling price to account for fees and other expenses.

2) I have a really good mortgage at a very low rate, so my mortgage interest deduction is very small. I hadn't thought of this though, so I appreciate it.

3) I'm already covering my family on my health insurance.

Edited by JoshR 2013-12-11 3:42 PM
2013-12-11 3:56 PM
in reply to: JoshR

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Champion
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Subject: RE: WWBT do finance edition?

I just wanted to say I like the idea.  If you can rent a suitable home for half of what you're paying now (which I think is what you wrote), and make all of those other savings in interest on the other loans, it works for me in theory.   The other advantage of renting for a while is that you can possibly again find a good real estate investment, without worrying about selling an existing home. 

Good luck!

2013-12-11 3:59 PM
in reply to: BikerGrrrl

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Deep in the Heart of Texas
Subject: RE: WWBT do finance edition?

Make sure you completely understand the income/capital gains tax consequences of selling the home and not rolling the proceeds into another home.

2013-12-11 4:08 PM
in reply to: 0

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Champion
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Subject: RE: WWBT do finance edition?
Originally posted by Hook'em

Make sure you completely understand the income/capital gains tax consequences of selling the home and not rolling the proceeds into another home.




Unless he's making $250,000 or more he wouldn't have to pay any capital gains on a home sale.

Actually I think it's $250,000 per person, so $500,000 if he's married.

Edited by mr2tony 2013-12-11 4:08 PM


2013-12-11 4:10 PM
in reply to: Hook'em

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Elite
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Boise
Subject: RE: WWBT do finance edition?
Originally posted by Hook'em

Make sure you completely understand the income/capital gains tax consequences of selling the home and not rolling the proceeds into another home.




I've got a couple accountant in-laws I'm going to discuss this with. If I do sell, it won't be until the late spring probably.
2013-12-11 4:14 PM
in reply to: 0

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Master
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Rio Rancho, NM
Subject: RE: WWBT do finance edition?

The "rollover" of the gain is old law. If and your wife have owned and lived in the house for 2 of the last 5 years you could be eligible for an exclusion of the gain up to $500,000. Check with your accountant, blah, blah, blah.

ETA: nevermind, I see you have people to consult with...



Edited by rrrunner 2013-12-11 4:15 PM
2013-12-11 4:15 PM
in reply to: JoshR

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Champion
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Albuquerque, New Mexico
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Subject: RE: WWBT do finance edition?
You like the house. You have to live somewhere, so to the extent you can afford taxes, insurance, utilities, and commuting on this house, it's reasonable to keep. Assuming the neighborhood is stable, what are the downside risks to staying where you are? What will it cost you to sell it? (Yea, it sounds like you've already accounted for the transaction costs.) What would you rent instead, and would it really be substantially cheaper than your housing cost now? (Keep in mind, because you got a great deal, you can afford the student loan payments now.) If you sell the house and don't buy another, you'll have to pay attention to capital gains rules for selling the house.

If you use the equity to pay off debt, how quickly would you expect to save enough for the next down payment? Would you buy another house in 2 years? 5 years? How does your wife feel about moving two or three times in that period? Would you end up with an equivalent house? If you are buying an equivalent house in 2 or 3 years, does it really make sense to move? How soon will your son start school, and how willing are you and your wife to move him between schools, or will you have to find a rental home in the same neighborhood where you would eventually buy again?

2013-12-11 4:27 PM
in reply to: McFuzz

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Elite
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Boise
Subject: RE: WWBT do finance edition?
Originally posted by McFuzz

You like the house. You have to live somewhere, so to the extent you can afford taxes, insurance, utilities, and commuting on this house, it's reasonable to keep. Assuming the neighborhood is stable, what are the downside risks to staying where you are? What will it cost you to sell it? (Yea, it sounds like you've already accounted for the transaction costs.) What would you rent instead, and would it really be substantially cheaper than your housing cost now? (Keep in mind, because you got a great deal, you can afford the student loan payments now.) If you sell the house and don't buy another, you'll have to pay attention to capital gains rules for selling the house.

If you use the equity to pay off debt, how quickly would you expect to save enough for the next down payment? Would you buy another house in 2 years? 5 years? How does your wife feel about moving two or three times in that period? Would you end up with an equivalent house? If you are buying an equivalent house in 2 or 3 years, does it really make sense to move? How soon will your son start school, and how willing are you and your wife to move him between schools, or will you have to find a rental home in the same neighborhood where you would eventually buy again?




Lots of good questions here. I'll just add some thoughts.

My wife is a part time teacher (she works the 2nd half of the school week) and we have a babysitting arrangement with our neighbors but they don't want to watch a newborn and we don't want to have someone else watch him to be honest. She is planning on not teaching next year because it's just too much of a time commitment and with a 2 year old and a newborn, it just won't work out very well. If we don't sell then we've got to figure out how to replace her lost income, which means she gets a crappy job working nights/weekends so i can watch the kids or I get a 2nd job or look for another job that might pay more (not sure if I could even do this). When the first son was born, she worked very sparingly, subbing and taking on some other odd jobs and we really struggled to make it, which is why she went back to part time teaching.

I live in a good sized residential area, probably 1000 homes around our area of all shapes and sizes. I was actually renting a house a few streets over when i saw this house was for sale. I have looked and could rent something in the area for similar to what we are paying now.

We've been discussing this a lot lately so I'm just trying to make sure I've covered every angle before we make our decision.
2013-12-11 5:39 PM
in reply to: JoshR

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Expert
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Boise, ID
Subject: RE: WWBT do finance edition?

 

I believe you bought around the same time I did, did you take advantage of the $8k cash for first time home buyers? I believe there is a repayment penalty on that if you sell in the first 5 years. Not for sure but something to check into if you were involved in that.

Home values in Boise are going up right now, new building is increasing, home prices will likely continue to rise, who knows how much or how quickly. I bought in 2010, got a lot more house than I would have ever been able to afford previously because it was a foreclosure and it was early 2010 so prices were crazy low. I could easily sell for $100k more than I bought for now, but I if I didn't roll the proceeds into another house right away I would likely not replace my current house with one of like size and quality any time soon. 

Could be hard for you to get back into a similar house in 3 years if the market keeps going up. I felt really bad for my friends that were a few years older than me and trying to buy in 2006-2007. A 3 bed 2 bath 1600 foot house was going for 285,000 in Meridian. Would hate for you to be stuck in that same situation.

But I can also see trying to work out a way for your wife to not work. My wife and I don't have kids and one of the reasons is she needs to work right now. Eventually we will decide to have kids but it will take a lot more income from me and a lifestyle shift for us to be able to afford for her not to work.



2013-12-11 7:50 PM
in reply to: #4911822

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Elite
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Boise
Subject: RE: WWBT do finance edition?
Aaron I bought in late 2011. I actually don't really want to move back into a similar house in the future. I got a great deal right near downtown but I want more land. Not going to happen here. I think the type of house I want would be a little less than I currently have.

I am looking at a 6 figure profit, which is the only reason I am considering it. I just don't see any other way of getting out of these loans anytime in the next 10 years. Plus the ability for my wife to stay home is just an added bonus.
2013-12-12 8:46 AM
in reply to: Aarondb4

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Chicago, IL
Subject: RE: WWBT do finance edition?

Originally posted by Aarondb4

 

Could be hard for you to get back into a similar house in 3 years if the market keeps going up. I felt really bad for my friends that were a few years older than me and trying to buy in 2006-2007. A 3 bed 2 bath 1600 foot house was going for 285,000 in Meridian. Would hate for you to be stuck in that same situation.

 

If this is the peak, I need to move to Boise.

Not really relevant, but interesting nonetheless, I think. When I lived in NYC, my friend bought a 1bd 1ba 650sqft condo, in Battery Park, for $635,000 (plus $1.200/mo HOA).

2013-12-12 8:56 AM
in reply to: Brit Abroad

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Elite
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Boise
Subject: RE: WWBT do finance edition?
Originally posted by Brit Abroad

Originally posted by Aarondb4

 

Could be hard for you to get back into a similar house in 3 years if the market keeps going up. I felt really bad for my friends that were a few years older than me and trying to buy in 2006-2007. A 3 bed 2 bath 1600 foot house was going for 285,000 in Meridian. Would hate for you to be stuck in that same situation.

 

If this is the peak, I need to move to Boise.

Not really relevant, but interesting nonetheless, I think. When I lived in NYC, my friend bought a 1bd 1ba 650sqft condo, in Battery Park, for $635,000 (plus $1.200/mo HOA).




As long as you don't mind taking a 60% pay cut feel free to join us. It's a wonderful place to live.
2013-12-12 10:22 AM
in reply to: Brit Abroad

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Expert
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Boise, ID
Subject: RE: WWBT do finance edition?

Originally posted by Brit Abroad

Originally posted by Aarondb4

 

Could be hard for you to get back into a similar house in 3 years if the market keeps going up. I felt really bad for my friends that were a few years older than me and trying to buy in 2006-2007. A 3 bed 2 bath 1600 foot house was going for 285,000 in Meridian. Would hate for you to be stuck in that same situation.

 

If this is the peak, I need to move to Boise.

Not really relevant, but interesting nonetheless, I think. When I lived in NYC, my friend bought a 1bd 1ba 650sqft condo, in Battery Park, for $635,000 (plus $1.200/mo HOA).

Haha yeah doesn't sound like much compared to other areas, but it was a heck of a lot around here at the time. They threw up a ton of crappy little house boxes in those years and they went for crazy money. Most of them are all sorts of broken down and falling apart now. 

For comparison sake I just wrote some insurance for a 3,800 square foot, brand new house in one of the top 5 subdivisions in a city a few miles from Boise, it sold for $375,000. 

2013-12-12 10:26 AM
in reply to: JoshR

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Expert
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Boise, ID
Subject: RE: WWBT do finance edition?

Originally posted by JoshR Aaron I bought in late 2011. I actually don't really want to move back into a similar house in the future. I got a great deal right near downtown but I want more land. Not going to happen here. I think the type of house I want would be a little less than I currently have. I am looking at a 6 figure profit, which is the only reason I am considering it. I just don't see any other way of getting out of these loans anytime in the next 10 years. Plus the ability for my wife to stay home is just an added bonus.

Yeah the profit is very tempting right now. We went a bit above what we really wanted to spend and got the house we wanted to retire in. I don't see myself getting into a similar house again until I make a lot more money. 

If you are not in the house you want long term selling and paying off debt sounds like a pretty decent plan. Now you just have to decide when to sell. Do you wait 6 months and see if prices keep climbing or do you get out now, tough call for sure. 



2013-12-12 10:53 AM
in reply to: JoshR

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Regular
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Subject: RE: WWBT do finance edition?
I guess my only thought on this would be can you get yourself into a similar or smaller mortgage in a different house. Sell your current home, use the proceeds to pay 2 out of 3 items off and have some for a down payment on a new house with some more land. Money is still historically cheap, I would have to assume that in 3 years mortgage rates are not going to still be in the 4s.

While the debt free life-style can be a good one, effective management of cheap capital is also a very good way to handle things.
2013-12-12 7:49 PM
in reply to: JoshR

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Champion
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Nashville, TN
Subject: RE: WWBT do finance edition?
Do it. Become debt-free. And then save your butt off. You and the wife will enjoy the freedom.

IMO, the only downside is that you may not be able afford the same level of housing in the future. But really you could, just might take more saving. We downsized to a smaller house 2 years ago. One of the best decisions we ever made. We don't need that much extra space. With little kids, you will be surprised at the gap between how much you think you need and how much you actually need. A smaller house actually brought our family closer because we see each other more.

Rent small, save big. And a few years from now, put a very sizable down payment on a home and get a 15 year mortgage. Then if the wife starts working about that time, throw her whole salary at it and pay the sucker off in half the time. Then you have a paid asset.
2013-12-12 8:24 PM
in reply to: 0

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Master
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Beijing
Subject: RE: WWBT do finance edition?

Originally posted by JoshR I really like my house and have put a lot of work into it (which is just another thing I would be saving money on too, that's not included above). The plan would be to save up some money for a down payment on a new house in the future, maybe when the kids get to school age and my wife wants to work again. The biggest benefit would be paying off the student loans. We can scrape by for the next few years with my wife working odd jobs. That will probably suck though and will involve a lot of not seeing each other to make the childcare work out. To me this is like my winning lotto ticket to get out from under my loans. Thoughts? Anything you can think of that I'm not thinking over clearly?

 

If you really like your house, then I would keep it.

What about a re-fi (or second mortgage on a shorter term) with a cash-out to pay off your student loans and car?  

Rent money is gone forever.   Mortgage principal is effectively going into a "savings account" (the value of your house) until you can withdraw it (either via another re-fi or by selling your house)   As someone else mentioned, increased mortgage interest can also be offset (if the interest you pay is larger than your standard deduction) by the interest deduction.

It's likely that your house will appreciate faster than any "safe" savings vehicle over the short-to-mid-term.

There's flexibility in your "extra lot" as well.   If your neighborhood is very desirable you might be able to contact a developer about building on it.  Review plans and work with him to make sure that he builds a house that is bigger and nicer than yours.  Try to add a clause in the contract where he pays you some "penalty" if his finished product doesn't appraise for a set value.    That will give you some cash from the sale of the land (and the developer will buy it without the need for a realtor's commission!) And will also provide a "bump" for you in your home value when he finally sells his house. 

Can you put your current house on the rental market, and then rent a house for your family?  You could do everything you're doing currently, use the extra income (assuming you can rent your house out for more than your current mortgage payment) to pay down your other debts.   Once you've got a steady rental income, you're also in a great position to buy your "dream house" somewhere else and continue to have income from your rental.   Or you can sell your first house if you want. 

Don't focus on just using YOUR money to make money.   Whenever you can use OTHER people's money to make money... you should! :^)

 

ETA:   don't think about this as a "lotto ticket"   You're selling yourself short!   You made good decisions to get to where you are.  Continue to capitalize on that way of thinking.  This is not a "lotto ticket." This is the result of your hard work and good decisions.   It can and will happen again, if you make it.



Edited by moondawg14 2013-12-12 8:25 PM
2013-12-13 11:55 AM
in reply to: JoshR

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Champion
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Philly 'burbs
Subject: RE: WWBT do finance edition?

On face value, I say do it. Getting out of debt and being able to live comfortably if your wife truly wants to stay home with the kids are both major life enhancements IMO. I've owned 4 houses in my lifetime, and I liked things about each one of them (which is why I bought them). You will find another house. Don't let liking the house stand in your way.

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