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2014-04-14 1:57 PM
in reply to: BrotherTri

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by BrotherTri So how was everybody's weekend?......Chris again nice job! Recover well......I finish another 2 high volume week and some how landed on Strava's Slowtwitch group leaders board as #2.....Was not trying and only just doing my own thing.......The next couple of week volume going to drop a little as I try to put some speed on.......Should be fun.......Any advice for speed work?

Had a good ride on Saturday despite some rain...decided to take Sunday off.  Legs felt okay, but I want to hit some of these weekday rides a little harder.  



2014-04-14 1:59 PM
in reply to: Asalzwed

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!
Agree with all on adding a few strides/pickups, what ever you want to call them into some of your everyday running. Salty is right, what kind of speed work you do will be driven by what you are trying to accomplish. General advice is to obviously warm up and warm down well. I either spin or walk and dynamic stretch for 15 minutes and then do at least another 15 minutes of easy running working up through my base zone before I then start doing my speed work specific warm up (accelerations, strides, skips, etc). A few weeks before I begin do legit track-oriented speed work I will also start to see short recovery type of run workouts that go something like 15x 30 sec EZ run, 30 sec EZ fast, 30 seconds walk after a warm up like described above. Spending at least a couple of weeks in transition is key - especially for us old folks!
2014-04-14 2:02 PM
in reply to: TankBoy

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by TankBoy Agree with all on adding a few strides/pickups, what ever you want to call them into some of your everyday running. Salty is right, what kind of speed work you do will be driven by what you are trying to accomplish. General advice is to obviously warm up and warm down well. I either spin or walk and dynamic stretch for 15 minutes and then do at least another 15 minutes of easy running working up through my base zone before I then start doing my speed work specific warm up (accelerations, strides, skips, etc). A few weeks before I begin do legit track-oriented speed work I will also start to see short recovery type of run workouts that go something like 15x 30 sec EZ run, 30 sec EZ fast, 30 seconds walk after a warm up like described above. Spending at least a couple of weeks in transition is key - especially for us old folks!

Great tips. Now that I have aged into a new decade I can identify with this whole "old folks" thing

I can't say enough about a good warm up if you want to run fast. And I also feel that keeping that warm up truly easy is critical to a solid workout.

2014-04-14 2:04 PM
in reply to: Fred D

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!
Hey - and thanks everyone for the well wishes to the wife - she continues to come along and finally after months of PT SHE got released to do the tiniest bit of run/walking starting this week. She has been doing this as long as me and also takes a very long view. As soon as she was allowed she got back on the bike and swim and has some fairly aggressive goals for those. The biggest bummer for her is that it has also kept her out of yoga for the most part, but she can start that back up again this week as well. So things are definitely going in the right direction around our house.
2014-04-14 2:06 PM
in reply to: Asalzwed

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by Asalzwed

Race planning here. And getting nerdy.

I like to start slow. Especially in a marathon. But the course has a downhill start, notably in the first mile.

Do I translate slow to, slow relative to the hill and still go a little under goal pace? (because the uphills later will definitely be slower than goal pace)

I don't want to get carried away but there is no such thing as perfectly consistent miles with dramatic ups and downs.

At Boston I'd be careful not only in the first mile as you say, but the first 4 miles can trash your quads if you go out too fast.

2014-04-14 2:11 PM
in reply to: Asalzwed

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!
Originally posted by Asalzwed

Originally posted by TankBoy Agree with all on adding a few strides/pickups, what ever you want to call them into some of your everyday running. Salty is right, what kind of speed work you do will be driven by what you are trying to accomplish. General advice is to obviously warm up and warm down well. I either spin or walk and dynamic stretch for 15 minutes and then do at least another 15 minutes of easy running working up through my base zone before I then start doing my speed work specific warm up (accelerations, strides, skips, etc). A few weeks before I begin do legit track-oriented speed work I will also start to see short recovery type of run workouts that go something like 15x 30 sec EZ run, 30 sec EZ fast, 30 seconds walk after a warm up like described above. Spending at least a couple of weeks in transition is key - especially for us old folks!

Great tips. Now that I have aged into a new decade I can identify with this whole "old folks" thing

I can't say enough about a good warm up if you want to run fast. And I also feel that keeping that warm up truly easy is critical to a solid workout.

Preach on, Sister! Since working through my last injury I have become almost religious about it. When I was a kid and my dad would catch me taking shortcuts instead spending the time to do things right he would tell me "Boy, that is like taking a sh*t and then telling me you didn't have time to wipe your @ss." So yeah, the warm-up and the warm down are inviolate. If I am running late our out of time then the time comes out of the workout, not the warmup/down. Since adopting that strategy however it seems that I always find the time for the whole thing. Go figure.



2014-04-14 4:11 PM
in reply to: TankBoy

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by TankBoy
Originally posted by Asalzwed

Originally posted by TankBoy Agree with all on adding a few strides/pickups, what ever you want to call them into some of your everyday running. Salty is right, what kind of speed work you do will be driven by what you are trying to accomplish. General advice is to obviously warm up and warm down well. I either spin or walk and dynamic stretch for 15 minutes and then do at least another 15 minutes of easy running working up through my base zone before I then start doing my speed work specific warm up (accelerations, strides, skips, etc). A few weeks before I begin do legit track-oriented speed work I will also start to see short recovery type of run workouts that go something like 15x 30 sec EZ run, 30 sec EZ fast, 30 seconds walk after a warm up like described above. Spending at least a couple of weeks in transition is key - especially for us old folks!

Great tips. Now that I have aged into a new decade I can identify with this whole "old folks" thing

I can't say enough about a good warm up if you want to run fast. And I also feel that keeping that warm up truly easy is critical to a solid workout.

Preach on, Sister! Since working through my last injury I have become almost religious about it. When I was a kid and my dad would catch me taking shortcuts instead spending the time to do things right he would tell me "Boy, that is like taking a sh*t and then telling me you didn't have time to wipe your @ss." So yeah, the warm-up and the warm down are inviolate. If I am running late our out of time then the time comes out of the workout, not the warmup/down. Since adopting that strategy however it seems that I always find the time for the whole thing. Go figure.

I need a shirt that says that!

2014-04-14 6:54 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by Rudedog55
Originally posted by ChrisM Thanks guys for checking in on me. Was 4th ou of the water not sure how with a :30. But Potts swam :22 so not long. Bike was very windy. Headwind or substantial cross wind for 90% of the ride. Sore arms from controlling the aero bars. I ran well at Oceanside last year but since then they've all sucked. All runs following a bike based on power. So I seem to be doing something wrong - ie overcoolong the bike. But I knew on me 2 that the run just wasn't there. Then again, I have a lot less training than last year, and two weeks ago had an ng tube down my throat, so I'll take what I get at this point. Off for hurricanes!
Dood, you get your own post!!! Great job!!! I have been a big fan of yours since i started on this site back in 2008. Keep up the great work and congrats for having a good race when you were beat up just a few weeks ago!!!

Thanks Rudy.   And everyone else.  I've lots of excuses/reasons/explanations for the run, but I think I just really need to concentrate and learn how to become a runner.  I've been able to do that on the bike, bet I can for the run too.  There are a lot of impressive runners in this group, I intend to pick your brains.  So much of this was mental, and I was really struggling to figure out what the hell I was doing out there, when about mile 3 an angel came by and gave me a reason to finish as best I could, even though the goal was out the window.

As for the bike, I rode a 2:30 on a 211  AP and 217 NP, IF .71.  I got passed by a few, but passed a crap load of folks.  I know there's no such thing as a good run and a bad bike in triathlon though    I thought the bike was going to be MUCH longer than Miami under the conditions, much more difficult.   Basically a sidewind for 45-50 of the 56 miles.  The rest was straight on headwind and an equal amount of tailwind.  Hit 31 on the flats at one point.

As an aside, I just put in the actual numbers for the race and it was 7 seconds off. 



Edited by ChrisM 2014-04-14 7:01 PM
2014-04-14 8:05 PM
in reply to: Rudedog55

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by Rudedog55 Wow, all you guys are sooo impressive!!!!! James, Jay nailed it, your volume is just insane!!!! Jay, told you at the race, but Congrats again anyway. Ben, hang in there, spring is almost here, i promise!!! Well, spring crits are done, time to concentrate on triathlon things I need a little more endurance, so longer easier rides are on tap. Gonna keep on the running trend i am on, legs feel good, i am running well and comfortable. I really need to swim. weight is under control, 214 this am, so that puts me on track for a solid 200lbs for my June half. While it will be 10lbs heavier than i wanted, it will still be the lightest i have been in 10 years Keep up the good work boys and girls!!!!

Not saying I don't believe this, but some more snow just dropped on us today.

2014-04-14 9:08 PM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by brigby1

Not saying I don't believe this, but some more snow just dropped on us today.


4-8 inches expected here starting tomorrow night....they cruelly tempted us with 70s last week and now this.....

2014-04-15 6:35 AM
in reply to: ChrisM

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by ChrisM

Originally posted by Rudedog55
Originally posted by ChrisM Thanks guys for checking in on me. Was 4th ou of the water not sure how with a :30. But Potts swam :22 so not long. Bike was very windy. Headwind or substantial cross wind for 90% of the ride. Sore arms from controlling the aero bars. I ran well at Oceanside last year but since then they've all sucked. All runs following a bike based on power. So I seem to be doing something wrong - ie overcoolong the bike. But I knew on me 2 that the run just wasn't there. Then again, I have a lot less training than last year, and two weeks ago had an ng tube down my throat, so I'll take what I get at this point. Off for hurricanes!
Dood, you get your own post!!! Great job!!! I have been a big fan of yours since i started on this site back in 2008. Keep up the great work and congrats for having a good race when you were beat up just a few weeks ago!!!

Thanks Rudy.   And everyone else.  I've lots of excuses/reasons/explanations for the run, but I think I just really need to concentrate and learn how to become a runner.  I've been able to do that on the bike, bet I can for the run too.  There are a lot of impressive runners in this group, I intend to pick your brains.  So much of this was mental, and I was really struggling to figure out what the hell I was doing out there, when about mile 3 an angel came by and gave me a reason to finish as best I could, even though the goal was out the window.

As for the bike, I rode a 2:30 on a 211  AP and 217 NP, IF .71.  I got passed by a few, but passed a crap load of folks.  I know there's no such thing as a good run and a bad bike in triathlon though    I thought the bike was going to be MUCH longer than Miami under the conditions, much more difficult.   Basically a sidewind for 45-50 of the 56 miles.  The rest was straight on headwind and an equal amount of tailwind.  Hit 31 on the flats at one point.

As an aside, I just put in the actual numbers for the race and it was 7 seconds off. 

I will add that running in extremely hot weather takes a lot out of you. You might have run better in more modest conditions.

Then again, you did have an NG tube a few weeks ago, so was your run really that bad?



2014-04-15 6:52 AM
in reply to: TankBoy

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by TankBoy
Originally posted by mcmanusclan5

Just asked this in TT, as well, but wondering if anyone has a recommendation for swim cords.  I'm traveling with family next week (April vacation!) and won't be able to easily find a pool...

Best for travel?  Best at home (if some are good but perhaps bulky?)?

Never used them before, so this will be a new experience...

Thanks!

Matt

Matt: I have some: it is a single red red cord with a handle on each end. I keep them in my swim bag. I have a hard start and stop at masters, so I get there early sometimes and use. Them to warm up, and always use them to warm down. That let's me make the best use of the 1.5 hours I have in the water actually swimming. I tie one end to the pole that holds the flags up in the air. My coach sent me a video ling a long time ago to some warm up/warm down exercises - I will see if I can find it and post it up if you like.

That would be great.

I went with the HALO/HEAT cords (per Yanti's reco.).  I'm curious to see what a week or so of cords rather than pool feels like when I get back in the pool after.

Thanks to the fishy BTers!

Matt

2014-04-15 8:52 AM
in reply to: Fred D

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by Fred D

Originally posted by ChrisM

Originally posted by Rudedog55
Originally posted by ChrisM Thanks guys for checking in on me. Was 4th ou of the water not sure how with a :30. But Potts swam :22 so not long. Bike was very windy. Headwind or substantial cross wind for 90% of the ride. Sore arms from controlling the aero bars. I ran well at Oceanside last year but since then they've all sucked. All runs following a bike based on power. So I seem to be doing something wrong - ie overcoolong the bike. But I knew on me 2 that the run just wasn't there. Then again, I have a lot less training than last year, and two weeks ago had an ng tube down my throat, so I'll take what I get at this point. Off for hurricanes!
Dood, you get your own post!!! Great job!!! I have been a big fan of yours since i started on this site back in 2008. Keep up the great work and congrats for having a good race when you were beat up just a few weeks ago!!!

Thanks Rudy.   And everyone else.  I've lots of excuses/reasons/explanations for the run, but I think I just really need to concentrate and learn how to become a runner.  I've been able to do that on the bike, bet I can for the run too.  There are a lot of impressive runners in this group, I intend to pick your brains.  So much of this was mental, and I was really struggling to figure out what the hell I was doing out there, when about mile 3 an angel came by and gave me a reason to finish as best I could, even though the goal was out the window.

As for the bike, I rode a 2:30 on a 211  AP and 217 NP, IF .71.  I got passed by a few, but passed a crap load of folks.  I know there's no such thing as a good run and a bad bike in triathlon though    I thought the bike was going to be MUCH longer than Miami under the conditions, much more difficult.   Basically a sidewind for 45-50 of the 56 miles.  The rest was straight on headwind and an equal amount of tailwind.  Hit 31 on the flats at one point.

As an aside, I just put in the actual numbers for the race and it was 7 seconds off. 

I will add that running in extremely hot weather takes a lot out of you. You might have run better in more modest conditions.

Then again, you did have an NG tube a few weeks ago, so was your run really that bad?

Yeah, don't forget about these. At some point you put in to become a solid swimmer. You've developed into a strong rider. You'll be able to figure out the run as well.

2014-04-15 11:49 AM
in reply to: Fred D

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by Fred D

Originally posted by ChrisM

Originally posted by Rudedog55
Originally posted by ChrisM Thanks guys for checking in on me. Was 4th ou of the water not sure how with a :30. But Potts swam :22 so not long. Bike was very windy. Headwind or substantial cross wind for 90% of the ride. Sore arms from controlling the aero bars. I ran well at Oceanside last year but since then they've all sucked. All runs following a bike based on power. So I seem to be doing something wrong - ie overcoolong the bike. But I knew on me 2 that the run just wasn't there. Then again, I have a lot less training than last year, and two weeks ago had an ng tube down my throat, so I'll take what I get at this point. Off for hurricanes!
Dood, you get your own post!!! Great job!!! I have been a big fan of yours since i started on this site back in 2008. Keep up the great work and congrats for having a good race when you were beat up just a few weeks ago!!!

Thanks Rudy.   And everyone else.  I've lots of excuses/reasons/explanations for the run, but I think I just really need to concentrate and learn how to become a runner.  I've been able to do that on the bike, bet I can for the run too.  There are a lot of impressive runners in this group, I intend to pick your brains.  So much of this was mental, and I was really struggling to figure out what the hell I was doing out there, when about mile 3 an angel came by and gave me a reason to finish as best I could, even though the goal was out the window.

As for the bike, I rode a 2:30 on a 211  AP and 217 NP, IF .71.  I got passed by a few, but passed a crap load of folks.  I know there's no such thing as a good run and a bad bike in triathlon though    I thought the bike was going to be MUCH longer than Miami under the conditions, much more difficult.   Basically a sidewind for 45-50 of the 56 miles.  The rest was straight on headwind and an equal amount of tailwind.  Hit 31 on the flats at one point.

As an aside, I just put in the actual numbers for the race and it was 7 seconds off. 

I will add that running in extremely hot weather takes a lot out of you. You might have run better in more modest conditions.

Then again, you did have an NG tube a few weeks ago, so was your run really that bad?

Yes, there were a lot of obstacles, big and small, conspiring against me      Given everything, I was glad to be able to just be out there.  A friend of mine writes the last page article in the USAT mag, the only thing I read in it.   He wrote the best line I ever read about triathlon a couple years back, "it's not about the time it take you to get from the start to the finish, but about the time you had in between."  Thought about that a few times on the run and just had fun with it (well, as much fun as you can have suffering through a HIM )

2014-04-15 12:25 PM
in reply to: Birkierunner

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by Birkierunner

Originally posted by Asalzwed

Race planning here. And getting nerdy.

I like to start slow. Especially in a marathon. But the course has a downhill start, notably in the first mile.

Do I translate slow to, slow relative to the hill and still go a little under goal pace? (because the uphills later will definitely be slower than goal pace)

I don't want to get carried away but there is no such thing as perfectly consistent miles with dramatic ups and downs.

At Boston I'd be careful not only in the first mile as you say, but the first 4 miles can trash your quads if you go out too fast.

This gets a ton of people.  That first mile?  Sure - most folks know it's easy to overcook that first one - especially going downhill - and try to be careful.  

The tougher part mentally is that it's still downhill for quite a bit after that, and it's VERY easy to pound along feeling good, as it's the start of the race and those legs are all tapered up!  You'll feel those first 4 miles, if you overdo it, a bit after heartbreak - which I think is in many ways the toughest section on the course (not Heartbreak, but after the corner coming off Comm) if you've gone out fast.  If you don't, it's also the section where you can put a lot of time into the competition...

For ME, I'd go slower than I want that first mile (about goal pace, even with the hill) and a bit under goal for the next 3 (but not at goal-adjusted-downhill pace, if that makes sense).  While heartbreak will be slower, there are a couple other sections where you will likely be faster than goal - including the balance of the race after heartbreak (it's downhill from mile 21 on, which can be fast or a killer, depending!) .  

That assumes you're trained up to the point that you have something in the tank for the last ~8k - but I think that's a safe assumption for you!  A lot depends on what you feel your strengths are as a runner at this moment.  Uphills?  Downhills?  Flats?  At what are you strongest right now?  Your current fitness and skills dictate, at least in part, how you meter your effort against the course.

Now, that's just how I would approach it, so it's prolly of limited value.  

Wish we were going to be in town to cheer!

Matt

2014-04-15 12:33 PM
in reply to: mcmanusclan5

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!

Adrienne - No advice to give you, but just to say I am impressed by Boston qualifiers and looking forward to following you on race day!



2014-04-15 12:38 PM
in reply to: ChrisM

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by ChrisM

Adrienne - No advice to give you, but just to say I am impressed by Boston qualifiers and looking forward to following you on race day!

Me too!!

2014-04-15 12:57 PM
in reply to: mcmanusclan5

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Seattle
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by mcmanusclan5

Originally posted by Birkierunner

Originally posted by Asalzwed

Race planning here. And getting nerdy.

I like to start slow. Especially in a marathon. But the course has a downhill start, notably in the first mile.

Do I translate slow to, slow relative to the hill and still go a little under goal pace? (because the uphills later will definitely be slower than goal pace)

I don't want to get carried away but there is no such thing as perfectly consistent miles with dramatic ups and downs.

At Boston I'd be careful not only in the first mile as you say, but the first 4 miles can trash your quads if you go out too fast.

This gets a ton of people.  That first mile?  Sure - most folks know it's easy to overcook that first one - especially going downhill - and try to be careful.  

The tougher part mentally is that it's still downhill for quite a bit after that, and it's VERY easy to pound along feeling good, as it's the start of the race and those legs are all tapered up!  You'll feel those first 4 miles, if you overdo it, a bit after heartbreak - which I think is in many ways the toughest section on the course (not Heartbreak, but after the corner coming off Comm) if you've gone out fast.  If you don't, it's also the section where you can put a lot of time into the competition...

For ME, I'd go slower than I want that first mile (about goal pace, even with the hill) and a bit under goal for the next 3 (but not at goal-adjusted-downhill pace, if that makes sense).  While heartbreak will be slower, there are a couple other sections where you will likely be faster than goal - including the balance of the race after heartbreak (it's downhill from mile 21 on, which can be fast or a killer, depending!) .  

That assumes you're trained up to the point that you have something in the tank for the last ~8k - but I think that's a safe assumption for you!  A lot depends on what you feel your strengths are as a runner at this moment.  Uphills?  Downhills?  Flats?  At what are you strongest right now?  Your current fitness and skills dictate, at least in part, how you meter your effort against the course.

Now, that's just how I would approach it, so it's prolly of limited value.  

Wish we were going to be in town to cheer!

Matt

All great advice, Matt. Have you run Boston? A lot of what you are saying are all the things I have thought about in terms of pacing.

You have to layer the "marathon running rules" on top of your pace and then layer on the "boston marathon rules" over that. It's NOT an even splits kind of race, no matter how good of a hill runner you are.

This is why it's such a complicated race to run. None of the typical marathon rules apply. You need to slightly positive split, really. Which goes against all the rules. 

I am a strong uphill runner, and a not so great downhill runner. Although I have worked on that a lot this time around. Despite my hill strengths I still don't plan on attacking. The hills are just too relentless for that. It's all about just spinning up and recovering.

After this year I am planning on a more simple marathon

2014-04-15 1:01 PM
in reply to: axteraa

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by axteraa

Originally posted by ChrisM

Adrienne - No advice to give you, but just to say I am impressed by Boston qualifiers and looking forward to following you on race day!

Me too!!

Ah, thanks guys

Boston makes it nice and easy to track, too!

2014-04-15 2:09 PM
in reply to: Asalzwed

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by Asalzwed

Originally posted by mcmanusclan5

Originally posted by Birkierunner

Originally posted by Asalzwed

Race planning here. And getting nerdy.

I like to start slow. Especially in a marathon. But the course has a downhill start, notably in the first mile.

Do I translate slow to, slow relative to the hill and still go a little under goal pace? (because the uphills later will definitely be slower than goal pace)

I don't want to get carried away but there is no such thing as perfectly consistent miles with dramatic ups and downs.

At Boston I'd be careful not only in the first mile as you say, but the first 4 miles can trash your quads if you go out too fast.

This gets a ton of people.  That first mile?  Sure - most folks know it's easy to overcook that first one - especially going downhill - and try to be careful.  

The tougher part mentally is that it's still downhill for quite a bit after that, and it's VERY easy to pound along feeling good, as it's the start of the race and those legs are all tapered up!  You'll feel those first 4 miles, if you overdo it, a bit after heartbreak - which I think is in many ways the toughest section on the course (not Heartbreak, but after the corner coming off Comm) if you've gone out fast.  If you don't, it's also the section where you can put a lot of time into the competition...

For ME, I'd go slower than I want that first mile (about goal pace, even with the hill) and a bit under goal for the next 3 (but not at goal-adjusted-downhill pace, if that makes sense).  While heartbreak will be slower, there are a couple other sections where you will likely be faster than goal - including the balance of the race after heartbreak (it's downhill from mile 21 on, which can be fast or a killer, depending!) .  

That assumes you're trained up to the point that you have something in the tank for the last ~8k - but I think that's a safe assumption for you!  A lot depends on what you feel your strengths are as a runner at this moment.  Uphills?  Downhills?  Flats?  At what are you strongest right now?  Your current fitness and skills dictate, at least in part, how you meter your effort against the course.

Now, that's just how I would approach it, so it's prolly of limited value.  

Wish we were going to be in town to cheer!

Matt

All great advice, Matt. Have you run Boston? A lot of what you are saying are all the things I have thought about in terms of pacing.

You have to layer the "marathon running rules" on top of your pace and then layer on the "boston marathon rules" over that. It's NOT an even splits kind of race, no matter how good of a hill runner you are.

This is why it's such a complicated race to run. None of the typical marathon rules apply. You need to slightly positive split, really. Which goes against all the rules. 

I am a strong uphill runner, and a not so great downhill runner. Although I have worked on that a lot this time around. Despite my hill strengths I still don't plan on attacking. The hills are just too relentless for that. It's all about just spinning up and recovering.

After this year I am planning on a more simple marathon

A couple decades ago.  Twice as - I hate to admit as a wiser and older person - a bandit, and a few times for portions of the race pacing some folks from my track group (mostly heartbreak and the final 8k).  Young and stupid (well, willfully ignorant of etiquette & rules at an absolute minimum), yes.  Funny how that's just something that I'd never now consider doing having come back to recreational running 20+ years hence.  Different times, to be sure, but still.  Anywho...

I found the downhill at the end to be the toughest part the first time.  I expected it to be easier, but not so much!  

What can also play with your head is Wellesley and BC.  The women at Wellesley are INSANE (and wonderful).  I defy anyone to run that portion at less than threshold!  As for heartbreak, my first bought with grad school was at BC (I had just finished the MBA there the first time I ran).  The crowds go apesh!t for locals - especially those dumb enough to wear a BC shirt…  Didn't even feel the hills (sort of).  So, by the time I hit that loooooong lonely downhill from the Corner on, it was a death-jog.  

The next year went better.  

We'll be cyber-race-stalking you from afar, fo' sho'.

Matt

2014-04-15 2:39 PM
in reply to: mcmanusclan5

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Seattle
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by mcmanusclan5

Originally posted by Asalzwed

Originally posted by mcmanusclan5

Originally posted by Birkierunner

Originally posted by Asalzwed

Race planning here. And getting nerdy.

I like to start slow. Especially in a marathon. But the course has a downhill start, notably in the first mile.

Do I translate slow to, slow relative to the hill and still go a little under goal pace? (because the uphills later will definitely be slower than goal pace)

I don't want to get carried away but there is no such thing as perfectly consistent miles with dramatic ups and downs.

At Boston I'd be careful not only in the first mile as you say, but the first 4 miles can trash your quads if you go out too fast.

This gets a ton of people.  That first mile?  Sure - most folks know it's easy to overcook that first one - especially going downhill - and try to be careful.  

The tougher part mentally is that it's still downhill for quite a bit after that, and it's VERY easy to pound along feeling good, as it's the start of the race and those legs are all tapered up!  You'll feel those first 4 miles, if you overdo it, a bit after heartbreak - which I think is in many ways the toughest section on the course (not Heartbreak, but after the corner coming off Comm) if you've gone out fast.  If you don't, it's also the section where you can put a lot of time into the competition...

For ME, I'd go slower than I want that first mile (about goal pace, even with the hill) and a bit under goal for the next 3 (but not at goal-adjusted-downhill pace, if that makes sense).  While heartbreak will be slower, there are a couple other sections where you will likely be faster than goal - including the balance of the race after heartbreak (it's downhill from mile 21 on, which can be fast or a killer, depending!) .  

That assumes you're trained up to the point that you have something in the tank for the last ~8k - but I think that's a safe assumption for you!  A lot depends on what you feel your strengths are as a runner at this moment.  Uphills?  Downhills?  Flats?  At what are you strongest right now?  Your current fitness and skills dictate, at least in part, how you meter your effort against the course.

Now, that's just how I would approach it, so it's prolly of limited value.  

Wish we were going to be in town to cheer!

Matt

All great advice, Matt. Have you run Boston? A lot of what you are saying are all the things I have thought about in terms of pacing.

You have to layer the "marathon running rules" on top of your pace and then layer on the "boston marathon rules" over that. It's NOT an even splits kind of race, no matter how good of a hill runner you are.

This is why it's such a complicated race to run. None of the typical marathon rules apply. You need to slightly positive split, really. Which goes against all the rules. 

I am a strong uphill runner, and a not so great downhill runner. Although I have worked on that a lot this time around. Despite my hill strengths I still don't plan on attacking. The hills are just too relentless for that. It's all about just spinning up and recovering.

After this year I am planning on a more simple marathon

A couple decades ago.  Twice as - I hate to admit as a wiser and older person - a bandit, and a few times for portions of the race pacing some folks from my track group (mostly heartbreak and the final 8k).  Young and stupid (well, willfully ignorant of etiquette & rules at an absolute minimum), yes.  Funny how that's just something that I'd never now consider doing having come back to recreational running 20+ years hence.  Different times, to be sure, but still.  Anywho...

I found the downhill at the end to be the toughest part the first time.  I expected it to be easier, but not so much!  

What can also play with your head is Wellesley and BC.  The women at Wellesley are INSANE (and wonderful).  I defy anyone to run that portion at less than threshold!  As for heartbreak, my first bought with grad school was at BC (I had just finished the MBA there the first time I ran).  The crowds go apesh!t for locals - especially those dumb enough to wear a BC shirt…  Didn't even feel the hills (sort of).  So, by the time I hit that loooooong lonely downhill from the Corner on, it was a death-jog.  

The next year went better.  

We'll be cyber-race-stalking you from afar, fo' sho'.

Matt

I won't judge you for our bandit past

Yes. The Wellesley women ARE insane. I am guilty of slowing down in that portion last year. You know, just to look

Those girls are quite clever, I had no idea the variation that could exist in "Kiss me I'm ______" signs.



2014-04-16 8:27 AM
in reply to: Asalzwed

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ---- Permanently OPEN!!

Originally posted by Asalzwed

Yes. The Wellesley women ARE insane. I am guilty of slowing down in that portion last year. You know, just to look

I think I still suffer from hearing loss in my right ear due to their screaming (sounds better than just being due to getting older)

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