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Kona elitism. (Page 2)
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 2014-04-07 10:44 AM in reply to: briderdt |
Elite  3090    Spokane, WA |  Subject: RE: Kona elitism.Originally posted by briderdt Just throwing something out there, not that I believe it at all: Has it ever occurred to anyone that the "everyone belongs" attitude at a COMPETITIVE SPORTING EVENT is wrong? My perspective on that is that only the pros are truly competing for the win. Even the fastest AG'ers are really just along for the ride like everyone else. That's what makes any elitism on behalf of AG'ers as petty and sad. |
| 2014-04-07 10:47 AM in reply to: Rudedog55 |
Regular 1161 Hamilton, IL | Subject: RE: Kona elitism. I have run into TWO cases of...I dunno what to call it...Reverse Kona Elitism? They were two athletes that had competed at Kona and were bragging about the elites that they met and how awesome they were to meet and were offering cool triathlon advice and encouraging me to go ahead and try to train for an IM length... And then I asked their finish times. 14 hours for him, 15 for her. The fact that they can compete and finish in a race of that length is impressive to most of the world, but I felt lied to when I found out that they were there through lottery. They certainly passed it off as being something that made them cooler because they had done it, but really (at least in my mind) it didn't mean anything more than any other IM. I dunno, though. I will never race at Kona, maybe even never do an 140.6, so maybe I should stay out of this discussion. I'm not hating on the people that don't KQ, but I do wonder what's the motivation to participate in that event? If I was offered the chance to compete at the 2018 Winter Olympics, I would have to decline. I wouldn't see the point. If I want to ski, I'll just go on a vacation to do so. If I want to pretend I'm a racer, I'll do something a little less geared towards the best of the best. |
| 2014-04-07 10:56 AM in reply to: Danno77 |
Alpharetta, Georgia Bronze member | Subject: RE: Kona elitism. Originally posted by Danno77 I'm not hating on the people that don't KQ, but I do wonder what's the motivation to participate in that event? If I was offered the chance to compete at the 2018 Winter Olympics, I would have to decline. I wouldn't see the point. If I want to ski, I'll just go on a vacation to do so. If I want to pretend I'm a racer, I'll do something a little less geared towards the best of the best. Kona has been structured this way since 1983, so while I can understand the temptation to draw a parallel to something like the Winter Olympics, it's not really apples and oranges. Do you also feel this way about charity spots for events like Boston Marathon? |
| 2014-04-07 10:59 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Pro 4528 Norwalk, Connecticut | Subject: RE: Kona elitism. Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by Rudedog55 Originally posted by Left Brain Personal experience from racing here in the Northeast for the last 6 years. From training experience, socializing with athletes that race all distances to in race comments while i'm competing. We have all been associated with really fast people, and if you race enough you spend a fair amount of time with them. There are lots of great and fast people, there are also a large number of people who aren't so nice and friendly. But all in all its just and opinion, my opinion, and you know what they say about opinions. Originally posted by Rudedog55 Originally posted by Left Brain so you are not arguing with the douchebaggery comment?? Originally posted by Rudedog55 its different at the pointy end of the field. Having seen the front middle and back, the level of douchebaggery and drugs increases at the front. There are some very very grounded, clean and friendly FOP'ers, we have multiple here, but this is only a small sample of whats really out there. Whenever you take a large sample of "A" personality uber competitive people, you will get people who think the average Joe/Jane do not belong, and have the win at all costs mindset. Just a fact of triathlon life. In what way? And.....do you have anything to back up the drug comment? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm interestedin what you have seen that causes you to make those comments. I might end up arguing, but I'm not yet.....I'm interested in hearing how you came to that conclusion. I spend quite a bit of time around some really fast people....I would never be able to make as broad a comment as you did. Most of then are really good guys/gals. That makes sense. I guess I looked at your initial comment as more sweeping than it actually was. Fast people have been invaluable for my family.....and helpful beyond belief. In fact, I can say that we've not really ran across anyone in the pointy end who has been a DB to us our or kids. Granted, almost everyone is willing to help out kids in the sport, so that's probably part of it. As for drugs......I don't have a clue how may AG'ers dope. I find it pretty incredible that any of them would, because at that level, who cares? Obvioiusly, I'm wrong and quite a few actually do, but I don't think I care.
Fast people that give back are invaluable, someone needs to help the younger athletes with perspective that not everyone can provide. I don't really care about dopers either, i race and race clean, and if i lose, it is what it is, it does not define me. I need to worry about providing a good role model for my 4 year old daughter if and when she decides to do a competitive sport. She's a sore loser, that is very difficult to try and wean her from and not destroy her instinctual competitive nature for when she gets older and understand. For me helping out a new athlete or taking a troubled teen on a bike ride to try to dissuade them from making a poor life decision is more important than any race result. Keep in mind, that a person who can be a DB to one, may very well be really nice to another. I am sure not everyone likes me and think i'm a DB, it is what it is, but i try to go out of my way to be as friendly as i can to all competitors new and veteran, you never know when that word you give someone turns their race around. But this is a topic for another day. The Kona race is it's own thing and morphed into the WTC WC's for 140.6. The 70.3 is qualify only, i think that WTC has it right making the half qualify only and the Crown Jewel of Triathlon available to a select # of lottery entrants to stay on the young ladies topic that i have so thoroughly derailed. |
| 2014-04-07 11:00 AM in reply to: Rudedog55 |
Expert 3145 Scottsdale, AZ | Subject: RE: Kona elitism. Originally posted by Rudedog55 its different at the pointy end of the field. Having seen the front middle and back, the level of douchebaggery and drugs increases at the front. There are some very very grounded, clean and friendly FOP'ers, we have multiple here, but this is only a small sample of whats really out there. Whenever you take a large sample of "A" personality uber competitive people, you will get people who think the average Joe/Jane do not belong, and have the win at all costs mindset. Just a fact of triathlon life.
The level of douchebaggery in this comment is a touch ironic. |
| 2014-04-07 11:01 AM in reply to: lisac957 |
Regular 1161 Hamilton, IL | Subject: RE: Kona elitism. Originally posted by lisac957 Originally posted by Danno77 I'm not hating on the people that don't KQ, but I do wonder what's the motivation to participate in that event? If I was offered the chance to compete at the 2018 Winter Olympics, I would have to decline. I wouldn't see the point. If I want to ski, I'll just go on a vacation to do so. If I want to pretend I'm a racer, I'll do something a little less geared towards the best of the best. Kona has been structured this way since 1983, so while I can understand the temptation to draw a parallel to something like the Winter Olympics, it's not really apples and oranges. Do you also feel this way about charity spots for events like Boston Marathon? A little bit, but at least that's charity. The parallels can't be denied, though. Kona is a place that draws the best of the best from around the world into a competition that gives winners bragging rights. Olympics is similar in that. The primary difference is that one organization has a history of doing things that have been widely perceived as trying to boost profit margins past the point where it could be claimed that they care less about the sport and more about the $$. |
| 2014-04-07 11:05 AM in reply to: thebigb |
Pro 4528 Norwalk, Connecticut | Subject: RE: Kona elitism. Originally posted by thebigb Originally posted by Rudedog55 its different at the pointy end of the field. Having seen the front middle and back, the level of douchebaggery and drugs increases at the front. There are some very very grounded, clean and friendly FOP'ers, we have multiple here, but this is only a small sample of whats really out there. Whenever you take a large sample of "A" personality uber competitive people, you will get people who think the average Joe/Jane do not belong, and have the win at all costs mindset. Just a fact of triathlon life.
The level of douchebaggery in this comment is a touch ironic. Care to elaborate?? Are you assuming that you have had the same experience as me?? i would really like to know how you think my comment is douchbaggish, when i speak from personal experience and provided opinion?? Granted, you may not like it, but that doesn't make it a douchebag comment. |
| 2014-04-07 11:06 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: Kona elitism. Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by Rudedog55 its different at the pointy end of the field. Having seen the front middle and back, the level of douchebaggery and drugs increases at the front. There are some very very grounded, clean and friendly FOP'ers, we have multiple here, but this is only a small sample of whats really out there. Whenever you take a large sample of "A" personality uber competitive people, you will get people who think the average Joe/Jane do not belong, and have the win at all costs mindset. Just a fact of triathlon life. In what way? And.....do you have anything to back up the drug comment? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm interestedin what you have seen that causes you to make those comments. LB, I think we can cut the crap here, we all know what your son is on.
His bike, busting his arse 6 hours a day.
My kid LOVES Lance and watches reruns of his biggest rides over and over on the trainer. Doper or not, he is the #1 biggest reason I ever got on a bicycle. |
| 2014-04-07 11:12 AM in reply to: Danno77 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Kona elitism. Originally posted by Danno77 A little bit, but at least that's charity. The parallels can't be denied, though. Kona is a place that draws the best of the best from around the world into a competition that gives winners bragging rights. Olympics is similar in that. The primary difference is that one organization has a history of doing things that have been widely perceived as trying to boost profit margins past the point where it could be claimed that they care less about the sport and more about the $$. Unfortunately this is not true; the field at Kona is disproportionately North American (and even more so toward US athletes). At the pro ranks, most everyone who qualifies and is uninjured will toe the line while for amateurs, many cannot afford to travel to Kona. IMO, WTC should move the WC around the globe in order to make it more than a world championship in name only. Shane |
| 2014-04-07 11:13 AM in reply to: Sidney Porter |
Master 3205 ann arbor, michigan | Subject: RE: Kona elitism. Originally posted by Sidney Porter As far PED at the age group amateur level I am will to bet that there is more usage at the FOP of the large regional races that the BOP at you local sprint. And I would bet you that grass is green and the sky is blue. |
| 2014-04-07 11:18 AM in reply to: 0 |
Regular 1161 Hamilton, IL | Subject: RE: Kona elitism. Originally posted by gsmacleod Originally posted by Danno77 A little bit, but at least that's charity. The parallels can't be denied, though. Kona is a place that draws the best of the best from around the world into a competition that gives winners bragging rights. Olympics is similar in that. The primary difference is that one organization has a history of doing things that have been widely perceived as trying to boost profit margins past the point where it could be claimed that they care less about the sport and more about the $$. Unfortunately this is not true; the field at Kona is disproportionately North American (and even more so toward US athletes). At the pro ranks, most everyone who qualifies and is uninjured will toe the line while for amateurs, many cannot afford to travel to Kona. IMO, WTC should move the WC around the globe in order to make it more than a world championship in name only. Shane I'm not sure why you say my statement is not true. I'm sure you are trying to argue that there are a few elite competitors that do not come to Kona, and I would agree, but that doesn't mean that Kona doesn't "draw the best of the best from around the world." is it because I was saying Elite and not Pro? Edited by Danno77 2014-04-07 11:18 AM |
| 2014-04-07 11:19 AM in reply to: Danno77 |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: Kona elitism. Originally posted by Danno77 Originally posted by gsmacleod I'm not sure why you say my statement is not true. I'm sure you are trying to argue that there are a few elite competitors that do not come to Kona, and I would agree, but that doesn't mean that Kona doesn't "draw the best of the best from around the world." is it because I was saying Elite and not Pro? Originally posted by Danno77 A little bit, but at least that's charity. The parallels can't be denied, though. Kona is a place that draws the best of the best from around the world into a competition that gives winners bragging rights. Olympics is similar in that. The primary difference is that one organization has a history of doing things that have been widely perceived as trying to boost profit margins past the point where it could be claimed that they care less about the sport and more about the $$. Unfortunately this is not true; the field at Kona is disproportionately North American (and even more so toward US athletes). At the pro ranks, most everyone who qualifies and is uninjured will toe the line while for amateurs, many cannot afford to travel to Kona. IMO, WTC should move the WC around the globe in order to make it more than a world championship in name only. Shane Think about the qualifying. How many spots are available in the North America compared to the rest of the world? |
| 2014-04-07 11:21 AM in reply to: Danno77 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Kona elitism. Originally posted by Danno77 I'm not sure why you say my statement is not true. I'm sure you are trying to argue that there are a few elite competitors that do not come to Kona, and I would agree, but that doesn't mean that Kona doesn't "draw the best of the best from around the world." It draws the best of the best from the pro field but not at the age group level; if you have a look at the numbers that toe the line in Kona, it is obvious that participation is skewed toward NA. Shane |
| 2014-04-07 11:22 AM in reply to: dmiller5 |
Regular 1161 Hamilton, IL | Subject: RE: Kona elitism. Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by Danno77 Originally posted by gsmacleod I'm not sure why you say my statement is not true. I'm sure you are trying to argue that there are a few elite competitors that do not come to Kona, and I would agree, but that doesn't mean that Kona doesn't "draw the best of the best from around the world." is it because I was saying Elite and not Pro? Originally posted by Danno77 A little bit, but at least that's charity. The parallels can't be denied, though. Kona is a place that draws the best of the best from around the world into a competition that gives winners bragging rights. Olympics is similar in that. The primary difference is that one organization has a history of doing things that have been widely perceived as trying to boost profit margins past the point where it could be claimed that they care less about the sport and more about the $$. Unfortunately this is not true; the field at Kona is disproportionately North American (and even more so toward US athletes). At the pro ranks, most everyone who qualifies and is uninjured will toe the line while for amateurs, many cannot afford to travel to Kona. IMO, WTC should move the WC around the globe in order to make it more than a world championship in name only. Shane Think about the qualifying. How many spots are available in the North America compared to the rest of the world? Gotchya, we are talking the entire field. My statement was meant to refer to the actual best, not the people who "just made it." Probably not many Pro's hoping that there are enough spots available in their country to be able to KQ. |
| 2014-04-07 11:23 AM in reply to: 0 |
Expert 3145 Scottsdale, AZ | Subject: RE: Kona elitism. Originally posted by Rudedog55 Originally posted by thebigb Care to elaborate?? Are you assuming that you have had the same experience as me?? i would really like to know how you think my comment is douchbaggish, when i speak from personal experience and provided opinion?? Granted, you may not like it, but that doesn't make it a douchebag comment. Originally posted by Rudedog55 its different at the pointy end of the field. Having seen the front middle and back, the level of douchebaggery and drugs increases at the front. There are some very very grounded, clean and friendly FOP'ers, we have multiple here, but this is only a small sample of whats really out there. Whenever you take a large sample of "A" personality uber competitive people, you will get people who think the average Joe/Jane do not belong, and have the win at all costs mindset. Just a fact of triathlon life.
The level of douchebaggery in this comment is a touch ironic.
No not really. IMO it's a pretty douchebaggy thing to state something so absolute solely on finishing place. I assure you there are plenty of people I'd associate with and plenty I wouldn't associate with spread out through the entire ranks of the amateur field. Simply being more pointy end doesn't necessarily indicate proclivity to douchebaggery. Honestly, it comes off a bit like a jealous remark
As for the OP's question, I can understand the passion of the arguments on both sides of the lottery fence. I'm not a lottery person, just not for me, but I think the lottery program is good and actually needed in order for the show to actually be what it is. Don't worry about anyone else, just do you. Edited by thebigb 2014-04-07 11:26 AM |
| 2014-04-07 11:23 AM in reply to: gsmacleod |
Regular 1161 Hamilton, IL | Subject: RE: Kona elitism. Originally posted by gsmacleod I posted while you did. We are on the same page.Originally posted by Danno77 I'm not sure why you say my statement is not true. I'm sure you are trying to argue that there are a few elite competitors that do not come to Kona, and I would agree, but that doesn't mean that Kona doesn't "draw the best of the best from around the world." It draws the best of the best from the pro field but not at the age group level; if you have a look at the numbers that toe the line in Kona, it is obvious that participation is skewed toward NA. Shane |
| 2014-04-07 11:24 AM in reply to: wannabefaster |
| 631 | Subject: RE: Kona elitism. Originally posted by wannabefaster Originally posted by Sidney Porter As far PED at the age group amateur level I am will to bet that there is more usage at the FOP of the large regional races that the BOP at you local sprint. And I would bet you that grass is green and the sky is blue. Grass was tan until the last couple weeks. Sky is pretty gray |
| 2014-04-07 11:30 AM in reply to: missyw2you |
| Subject: RE: Kona elitism. Go over to slowtwitch if you want to see elitism. There are quite a few that don't believe you should be awarded a finish in an IM if you did not finish within 10 hours. Of course those who do it within 9 say the cutoff should be 9 hours, etc. Some talk about there should never be any roll down of slots and if you go to Kona on a roll down, you're pathetic. So if all you're hearing about is lottery slots, you're still doing good  |
| 2014-04-07 11:31 AM in reply to: thebigb |
Pro 4528 Norwalk, Connecticut | Subject: RE: Kona elitism. Originally posted by thebigb Originally posted by Rudedog55 Originally posted by thebigb Care to elaborate?? Are you assuming that you have had the same experience as me?? i would really like to know how you think my comment is douchbaggish, when i speak from personal experience and provided opinion?? Granted, you may not like it, but that doesn't make it a douchebag comment. Originally posted by Rudedog55 its different at the pointy end of the field. Having seen the front middle and back, the level of douchebaggery and drugs increases at the front. There are some very very grounded, clean and friendly FOP'ers, we have multiple here, but this is only a small sample of whats really out there. Whenever you take a large sample of "A" personality uber competitive people, you will get people who think the average Joe/Jane do not belong, and have the win at all costs mindset. Just a fact of triathlon life.
The level of douchebaggery in this comment is a touch ironic.
No not really. IMO it's a pretty douchebaggy thing to state something so absolute solely on finishing place. I assure you there are plenty of people I'd associate with and plenty I wouldn't associate with spread out through the entire ranks of the amateur field. Simply being more pointy end doesn't necessarily indicate proclivity to douchebaggery. Honestly, it comes off a bit like a jealous remark
As for the OP's question, I can understand the passion of the arguments on both sides of the lottery fence. I'm not a lottery person, just not for me, but I think the lottery program is good and actually needed in order for the show to actually be what it is. Don't worry about anyone else, just do you. Well, we agree on the lottery anyway. Congrats on your run win, i am jealous i cannot run very fast compared to most. I'll have to stick to the love affair with my bicycle's. ;o) |
| 2014-04-07 11:34 AM in reply to: gsmacleod |
Champion 7036 Sarasota, FL | Subject: RE: Kona elitism. Originally posted by gsmacleod Originally posted by Danno77 A little bit, but at least that's charity. The parallels can't be denied, though. Kona is a place that draws the best of the best from around the world into a competition that gives winners bragging rights. Olympics is similar in that. The primary difference is that one organization has a history of doing things that have been widely perceived as trying to boost profit margins past the point where it could be claimed that they care less about the sport and more about the $$. Unfortunately this is not true; the field at Kona is disproportionately North American (and even more so toward US athletes). At the pro ranks, most everyone who qualifies and is uninjured will toe the line while for amateurs, many cannot afford to travel to Kona. IMO, WTC should move the WC around the globe in order to make it more than a world championship in name only. Shane I view Kona the same way as the Masters, Wimbledon, Boston and the Indy 500 where the venue itself is iconic and defines the event. On the other hand, disengaging the WC title from Kona and holding it at rotating sites is an intriguing idea. However like all pro sports, the money drives everything and at the end of the day I'm not sure there's enough sponsorship dollars in the sport to support another "WC" event outside of Kona. Mark |
| 2014-04-07 11:39 AM in reply to: dmiller5 |
Extreme Veteran 1942 In front of computer when typing this. | Subject: RE: Kona elitism. I actually like that Kona is elite with very hard qualification standards and I would be in favor of removing all lottery, celebrity and extra money paid spots to ensure that everyone on the field worked for it. And that sucks for me because I will never qualify, no matter how hard I try. But I have a friend who is trying to qualify and is on the cusp of qualifying...would rather see an additional spot that would allow him and his 16hr training weeks for months on end to race there than someone who got lucky in a lottery. There are tons of triathlons for "everyone" to race...why does Kona have to be for everyone? And if that is elitism, thats fine- nothing wrong with having some elitism- I would love to compete in the olympics too but don't think that I am somehow entitled to that experience either...and I don't think they should have a lottery to allow one random person to compete in the 100m final, no matter how cool that would be for that person :-) |
| 2014-04-07 11:44 AM in reply to: marcag |
| Subject: RE: Kona elitism. Originally posted by marcag Very much a personal opinion Kona is an iconic event with history and tradition. That includes lottery winners. I don't think Kona should be considered the world championship. ITU should take control of world championship and it should be 100% by performance/qualification. Challenge will eventually create a championship event and the owner has made it clear it won't be Roth because he wants Roth to have a special place for ALL triathletes. I think this is the correct perspective. This. Yes I respect those that work hard to get there. But at the end of the day it's not an internationally sanctioned championship. In that respect it is no different than the HITS series of races culminating in the "championships" in Palm Springs. It's a privately owned, made-up "world championship" |
| 2014-04-07 11:47 AM in reply to: louiskie |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Kona elitism. Originally posted by louiskie I actually like that Kona is elite with very hard qualification standards and I would be in favor of removing all lottery, celebrity and extra money paid spots to ensure that everyone on the field worked for it. And that sucks for me because I will never qualify, no matter how hard I try. But I have a friend who is trying to qualify and is on the cusp of qualifying...would rather see an additional spot that would allow him and his 16hr training weeks for months on end to race there than someone who got lucky in a lottery. There are tons of triathlons for "everyone" to race...why does Kona have to be for everyone? And if that is elitism, thats fine- nothing wrong with having some elitism- I would love to compete in the olympics too but don't think that I am somehow entitled to that experience either...and I don't think they should have a lottery to allow one random person to compete in the 100m final, no matter how cool that would be for that person :-) I'm more in this camp than the lottery camp. I generally don't care who races there except for the pros, but a WC should be a WC....which is why I'm also in the same camp as Shane. Make a WC race that truly is a WC, and let Kona go on being Kona for those who give a rip.
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| 2014-04-07 11:54 AM in reply to: RedCorvette |
Extreme Veteran 1001 Highlands Ranch, Colorado | Subject: RE: Kona elitism. I haven't spent much time with FOP triathletes to know about their opinions about the lottery. I have however spent a lot of time with FOB distance runners. The attitude of many top AG runners is that Charity and other non-qualified entrants should not run Boston. I see both sides of the argument, however why does it matter? Does the performance of someone that did not qualify take away from the experience / performance of someone that did qualify...no. When I ran Boston the Charity/invited runners started in the third wave, did their presence affect my race? No, I still had a great time. The only argument that I can see against the lottery in Kona is that it is the "World Championship", there is not a lottery for us to run the marathon in the World Track and Field Championships or Olympics. Maybe WTC or another organization should have a Long Course Triathlon World Championship race every 2-4 years where only the best of the best AGers are invited. |
| 2014-04-07 12:18 PM in reply to: rick4657 |
Expert 3145 Scottsdale, AZ | Subject: RE: Kona elitism. Originally posted by rick4657 I haven't spent much time with FOP triathletes to know about their opinions about the lottery. I have however spent a lot of time with FOB distance runners. The attitude of many top AG runners is that Charity and other non-qualified entrants should not run Boston. I see both sides of the argument, however why does it matter? Does the performance of someone that did not qualify take away from the experience / performance of someone that did qualify...no. When I ran Boston the Charity/invited runners started in the third wave, did their presence affect my race? No, I still had a great time. The only argument that I can see against the lottery in Kona is that it is the "World Championship", there is not a lottery for us to run the marathon in the World Track and Field Championships or Olympics. Maybe WTC or another organization should have a Long Course Triathlon World Championship race every 2-4 years where only the best of the best AGers are invited.
I honestly think people that have issue with something like the charity spots at Boston probably feel it somehow dilutes their qualifying accomplishment. It could be something else but I'm not sure what. Perhaps it's just that they wish there were more spots for qualifiers but seems that would dilute the accomplishment as well? I don't know, it's all trivial to me. |
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