Still struggling at dialing in my "easy pace"

What pace / HR feel "easy" - say for a 40 to 50 min run?  Easy to the point that at the end of that run you feel like you could just turn around and do it again without any trouble.

Edited by axteraa 2014-04-20 8:10 PM

I dont want to state the obvious but.... you should not have a hard time dialing your easy pace. Just walk out...start running and forget about your hr and pace. Get the work done daily and enjoy those runs....

when you have specific intervals, focus on hitting your targeted goal etc but for the easy z2 runs.....dont overthink it... it absolutly wont matter, your body will tune itself into the proper rhythm.

for something like a long 11 miles run....i prefer to have someone focus on not fading on the way back. head out easy...and come back quicker.

If you were to go out for a "sitting on the couch easy" effort run...what pace/HR would that be? What pace / HR can you hold a conversation easily...talk in long sentances without gasping for breath?

The field tests are good for 2 things...1 is trying to set zones, but that doesn't always work for some people. The other is to monitor for improvement if you keep the test protocol standard.

Like the others said, go out and do an easy run for an hour. Wear your HR & track it but only if you can do so without looking at the data until you come back. put your HRM in your back pocket and use a regular watch to run for 45 minutes to an hour easy

Thanks for all the quick replies, I want to try and reply to all the questions here...

>>>What pace / HR feel "easy" - say for a 40 to 50 min run? Easy to the point that at the end of that run you feel like you could just turn around and do it again without any trouble.

I can probably run a 10 min mile comfortable for that amount of time and do it again. I really feel like when I watch my HR it gets to my head. I've done runs where I either forget it, or remove the field so I can't see it and I tend to have better runs. But I know if I run a 10 min pace my HR will drift way up about 30 minutes in.


>> dont want to state the obvious but.... you should not have a hard time dialing your easy pace. Just walk out...start running and forget about your hr and pace. Get the work done daily and enjoy those runs....
when you have specific intervals, focus on hitting your targeted goal etc but for the easy z2 runs.....dont overthink it... it absolutly wont matter, your body will tune itself into the proper rhythm.
for something like a long 11 miles run....i prefer to have someone focus on not fading on the way back. head out easy...and come back quicker.

That's what I'd prefer to do but then I read so much about running in Z3 being "worthless" and "junk miles" so I guess I worry about drifting into that zone so I'm constantly watching it and then I have an alert set so the watch starts yelling at me when I get into z3 so I walk it back down. I'd love to just run and not think about it. I can comfortably run in z3 and even in low z4 I feel ok. That's been my problem at times I'll feel good for the first half or so but the final 2 I tend to start fading. I have found that I have my best, and fastest runs when I do a 9/1 run/walk ratio. My HR stays down, mentally it's a lot easier for me to think about 10 minute blocks rather than one 90-100 minute block and I'll wind up with a faster overall pace too.



>>>f you were to go out for a "sitting on the couch easy" effort run...what pace/HR would that be? What pace / HR can you hold a conversation easily...talk in long sentances without gasping for breath?
he field tests are good for 2 things...1 is trying to set zones, but that doesn't always work for some people. The other is to monitor for improvement if you keep the test protocol standard.
Like the others said, go out and do an easy run for an hour. Wear your HR & track it but only if you can do so without looking at the data until you come back. put your HRM in your back pocket and use a regular watch to run for 45 minutes to an hour easy
I think you have to do another field test. One with an ACCURATELY measured run course. Field tests are useless if the course is mismeasured and your 5k time is off by a minute or more.

If I'm to really be able to talk in long sentences very easily I'd probably be looking at somewhere between 11/12 min miles. If you're talking about really getting out long sentences without big breathes in between. I could run 10 min/miles and feel comfortable but i'd be breathing fairly heavy. Certainly not able to get out long sentences. I wasn't using the race as my field test, just as a recent example of pace and HR. The field test I did was strictly based on time. That's where I got my zones from.


>>Just go run a standalone 5k or 10k (if you're targeting Oly or longer triathlons, the longer run races will give you a more realistic estimate) and plug it into the Mcmillan Calculator to get your training and racing paces based upon your race result. They will work for the vast majority of people, and you don't need to even be tied to HR.
As you'll find, just because a Vdot chart or run calculator says you 'can' run a marathon in "X" time based on your 5k race result, does not remotely mean you CAN do it. If you haven't logged the long training miles required for the marathon, even if you are a 15:xx 5k runner, you will fall wayyyy short of your Mcmillan target estimate for the marathons. (70mpw training is in the range of what most runners need to actually get near their Mcmillan calc marathon estimate.)

Probably a good idea to do a 10k instead of a 5k. My times drop drastically beyond that distance. I'm training for an Ironman so a longer distance race would certainly be a much more useful barometer for what I'm capable of. I'm NEVER hitting 70 mpw, just don't like running enough.


I really appreciate all the quick feedback. For what it's worth, I think what I've been doing has been working. Over the past 3 years I've gone from a 25 min 5k down under 22 doing what I've been doing. That's with faster bike splits as well. Just seems that my "easy" pace isn't getting much faster and wondered if I should be increasing it.

I personally think this is wrong. Fo rme, Z3 is far from junk miles. Most people don't even know what their Z3 really is. By Pace, by HR, by lactate ? None of these even line up for most people.

For the bulk of your running, I would do it as fast as you want IF

a)it doesn't prevent you from doing other key workouts
b) you can do the volume without injury.

There is no such thing as going too slow during easy runs and there is no such thing as going too fast if you are not breaking the above rules

I started my zone 2 running with a HR monitor several months ago. I found my zones the way that Mike Ricci discusses here on this thread. http://beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid... I tried them for a couple of weeks and found that for whatever reason those zones didn't seem accurate for me even after re-testing. So I read into the Maffetone method and started using that and it worked pretty well for a couple of months. After a few months of constant running, I was getting very familiar with my own HR and what type of paces I was holding at what HR and then just made up my own zones based on RPE. Its probably not perfect, but it works for me. As others have said, I just try to run at a pace where my breathing is very controlled, I can talk in complete sentences and when I get done I almost feel like I cheated. I made big gains aerobically this way. Good luck

I agree with a lot of the above. I no longer train by HR, I track it and find it interesting, but I train mostly by pace and feel. The more you run the more you will learn your limitations from an injury perspective and being able to work out the rest of the week perspective. I have pace targets for my runs but will disregard them if I'm feeling good/bad. Over time my aerobic engine had grown as evidenced in my mind by increasing sustained pace at similar HR levels.

In short - I think you are way overthinking this. You know the following maxim correct - Runs lots. Mostly easy. Sometimes Hard.

as Marc mention, there is no such thing as a junk miles and that notion is very wrong. And the rest of his post is very good guide line that you can stick with for the rest of your career. I could not have said better.

I gave up on HR for this reason. You focus so much on it that it's aggravating. Easy pace is "conversational pace". If my breathing is labored I'm going to hard. There's too many variables in HR training for me. I'll still occasionally wear a HR monitor just to look at the info after a run.

If you can run 7 minute miles at 190bpm then you should be able to keep your heart in the 150-160bpm range when running 9 minute miles. The fact that you have to slow down to 11 minute miles indicates you need to build some running economy or improve your base cardio fitness.

What is your heart rate if you run in place? Zero forward motion, infinity / mile pace ;-)

What is your resting heart rate?

The Joel Friel zone 2 calculation of .85 to .89 of lactate threshold is very high. Joel must have a different definition of zone 2 than everyone else. Try this calculator instead, and prepare to be blown away by how low the number is. Your zone 2 is probably below 150, which you might not be able to do even when running in place. You may need to do intervals of walking / running slow until you figure out how to run efficiently.

http://www.digifit.com/heartratezones/training-zones.asp

Iam entering the world of ultra marathons/ trail runs, and i use to have the same problem. One thing I was taught, was also to start very slow, and if you find yourself creeping up in HR and/or speed--literally stop! Walk 5 to 10 seconds, calm down and continue on slowly again. I use to run from a 6:50 to a 7:20 mile pace in training and close to in races when possible, but once my ultra long runs of 11-20+ miles would start racking up, you have to slow down and really think about what your trying to accomplish. Of course, I have switched gears from fast sprints and olympics tris, to longer ultra trail runs. I still swim and bike for cross-training, and at usually the same training pace as previous years. But, the running I have totally adjusted. Good luck!

After reading some of your feedback I have another question and some more comments:

Q. What is your season goal? What are you training for? If 5ks/sprints, keep doing what you're doing. If not, sounds like you need ot change based on your comment that you rpace drops way off.

If your pace drops way off then if you WERE to do a 10k field test or as far as you can run steady paced in an hour...your actual "endurance" pace will probabaly be much slower than your 5k tests because you've got a high fatigue rate. (Trained for short distances)

it sounds to me like you have been training short & Fast and are hoping that will automatically let you go long and fast-ish.

The VDOT calculators are pretty accurate as they are based on physiology and real runners data...lots of it. But only if you have being doing the volume of training needed to support a marathon. How much? that depends... 40 mpw is adequate but 60 or 80 or 100 is well tolerated by some.

To get that much volume in, you MUST run very easily so you can recover and do it again. This is where "zone 2" or "conversational" comes in.

I would caution you against running as fast as you want to go because at this point, it sounds to me like you are limited by lack of an adequate volume of training in terms of run duration. In order to extend duration you MUST slow down from whatever you're doing now.

Look up some of steven seiler's work on polarized training models.
http://www.sportsci.org/2009/ss.htm

Brushing up on the idea of Training Monotony & Strain is also interesting
http://marcocardinale.blogspot.com/2010/09/monitoring-training-load...

There are lots of different schools of thought about training so it's easy to get confused. Lots of studies. It just depends on whose opinion you'd like to listen to until you get enough experience to form good opinions of your own about your own body.

Edited by AdventureBear 2014-04-21 11:06 PM

Lots of responses so it's hard to respond directly. Regarding these questions...I've never trained for short distance. I rarely do hard runs. I haven't done much of intervals and nearly all my running(4 years pretty solid now) have been long and slow. I've ever been training for a half or full IM distance so I've always been training for slower runs.


Q. What is your season goal? What are you training for? If 5ks/sprints, keep doing what you're doing. If not, sounds like you need ot change based on your comment that you rpace drops way off.
I'm training for IM louisville this year.

If your pace drops way off then if you WERE to do a 10k field test or as far as you can run steady paced in an hour...your actual "endurance" pace will probabaly be much slower than your 5k tests because you've got a high fatigue rate. (Trained for short distances)
I'm definitely not trained for short distances. My most recent 10k race was last january(2013) and I did a 10 in 55ish minutes. I'm faster now. Yesterday I did about a 10k in 58 minutes and it was pretty relaxing(more on that later).

it sounds to me like you have been training short & Fast and are hoping that will automatically let you go long and fast-ish.
No, I haven't.


I would caution you against running as fast as you want to go because at this point, it sounds to me like you are limited by lack of an adequate volume of training in terms of run duration. In order to extend duration you MUST slow down from whatever you're doing now.
I don't run short and fast. My shortest runs are around an hour, and now I'm doing them at about 10ish min/miles.


Here's where I am now as a result of some of the feedback from this thread. I've turned off the heart rate so I can't see it and have been running by feel. My runs have been substantially faster, and have felt easier. My long run this weekend was 1:40. I was trying to negative split because well, I never am able to do that. On the first 50 min I paced about 10:55, on the second half I paced around 10:10, and my HR(which I looked at after) only bumped up about 5 bpm from where I was in the first half(roughly 153 - 158). More to the matter was that I actually felt great after the run. No soreness, and I did a lot of yard work that afternoon. So I know I didn't over do it. I felt that I had plenty more miles in me when I finished.

I don't know if its psychological or what, but it's almost as if the slightly faster stride is a more natural stride than a slower one. I felt far better at the pace closer to 10 min miles than that closer to 11 min miles.
I think ignoring HR for now may be the way to go so long as I'm able to keep a focus on how i feel.

If you're going to train by heart rate, then follow the heart rate and ignore the pace... the pace is the self-adjusting variable, your job should be to simply keep yourself in the proper zone for the prescribed work.

 

 

Pace is a result, not the metric to follow.

 

 

Edited by cgregg 2014-04-30 3:17 PM

This is the best answer.

Regarding all the other comments you replied to which were mostly mine, with the additional info now about the 10k you did...you're much better off just using a 10k HR as your "threshold HR" rather than the shorter tests to estimate it. Every field test is an estimation of your threshold HR. Yoru threshold HR for any sport is going to be the HR taht you can sustain ~ 1 hr of activity. So if you already have a 10k race pace that takes you 55-60 minutes, even 50 minutes...just use that.

The previous info you provided about your 5k paces seems way way off from your info about the 10k paces, unless there was a typo and you meant 48 minutes instead of 58 minutes? You have a lot of potential speed in you. The 1:40 run at > 10min/mi pace looks like it should be pretty easy for you effortwise based on the (short) 5k pace and the fact you say you've been running longer distances for training.

Regardless. However it seems like you have a good idea already then of something like best 10k pace. I'd use that to key off of and create training paces for you that would be valid for similar conditions, for example similar temp and not a lot of steep ups or downs.

In teh end you need to learn to listen to your body so you've learned a really valuable lesson through all of this. HR is variable, each individuals HR range varies and your HR response to different types of activity (short & fast vs. long & slow) will differ from some one else's response.

So just ditch HR.

And the lesson for the rest of us is you can't give any advice without adequate background.

And nothing you read on the internet is true.

PS I think you could add a lot of speed, by doing lots of volume between 9-10min/mile pace which should feel fairly easy for you, and adding in some interval work around a 7:30 pace for things like 400 & 800 repeats at the track totaling 4-6 miles there.

Edited by AdventureBear 2014-04-30 4:28 PM

If you had to peg a VDOT, what would it be ?

I don't use VDOT all that much, but it's going to be radically different based on whether you entered his estimated 5k times or his most recent 10k times. they are way off from each other physiologically. My suggestions on pace are based off his recent 5k time and comment that 1:40 @ 10:xx min/mile felt really easy.

So you can't peg it for him, what you can do is see how the 2 reference points are very different and know that something can be capitalized on in his training.

OR repeat some pace testing and get a more accurate recent 10k test and see whta his fatigue profile looks like.

If it were me, I would figure out the rather large discrepancy between his 5km and 10km times before zeroing in on an interval pace. They really don't jive.

So we know the 5k time is "close enough", even if it was short, he's got miles splits. So you either work with an old slower 10k time which he seems certain he can beat right now...or you get a new 10k time, which at best should be right in line with a progression from his 5k time, rigth? Maybe a little faster? We already know the 5k time, starting intervals judiciously based on a known recent estimate is safe. And when he's looking to add speed (I don't know, maybe he's not right now, maybe just sorting otu the HR issues), he doesn't need to do a lot of 90+ minute runs in my opinion even if training for a half.

My suggestions are based on what is already known, and certainly modest in the pacing recommendations, with the qualifier of listen to the body.

Question to the OP : when you did the 40min test with the 30min all out, did you get a distance on the 30min portion ?

Great question there too. Basically he's done 2 recent tests, the 5k taht was short and the 30 min all out test. My gut instinct is that at some point stop testing and just trian based on the best information you have. Then retest. Some people like to test until they "get it right". My guess for the OP is that he wanted to get the HR zones figured out, but now feels better just going by RPE. Totally legit.

Great discussion!!

I agree with the "stop testing and start running". Especially when talking about the easy pace running.
With the 400 and 800m repeats you suggest, I personally like more precision since too fast is a recipe for injury too slow kind of defeats the purpose. I guess you could always start slower and build.

I am off to do some right now....this is helping me procrastinate :-)