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changes coming to ITU AG worlds (Page 2)
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 2014-07-19 5:02 PM in reply to: rdailey1 |
Veteran  2297    Great White North |  Subject: RE: changes coming to ITU AG worldsIts a pretty fast rinse my friend. Can you swim 750 without a wetsuit under 9.00? |
| 2014-07-19 5:24 PM in reply to: simpsonbo |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: changes coming to ITU AG worlds Originally posted by simpsonbo It would be up to your PBG to certify racers. I have had my ATA draft legal certification sin e 2002 or 2003. Yeah, here right now we only certify youth, juniors and anyone who has an ICC (or at least up until last year - not sure right now). I've done most of the certifications over the last Canada Games cycle and I would guess at least half of the triathletes I see on bikes would not earn their certification. Another thing that I think will be very surprising to people the first time they race draft legal is the size of the packs - I think many will go in expecting a nice 20km cruise sitting in the draft and quickly learn they are solo or in a very small group for the bike leg with little to no organization and find their legs smoked at T2. Shane |
| 2014-07-19 5:24 PM in reply to: simpsonbo |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: changes coming to ITU AG worlds Originally posted by simpsonbo Its a pretty fast rinse my friend. Can you swim 750 without a wetsuit under 9.00? It's a pretty fast blow dry too.....but don't despair....the run is only stupid fast. |
| 2014-07-19 5:44 PM in reply to: gsmacleod |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: changes coming to ITU AG worlds Originally posted by gsmacleod Originally posted by simpsonbo It would be up to your PBG to certify racers. I have had my ATA draft legal certification sin e 2002 or 2003. Yeah, here right now we only certify youth, juniors and anyone who has an ICC (or at least up until last year - not sure right now). I've done most of the certifications over the last Canada Games cycle and I would guess at least half of the triathletes I see on bikes would not earn their certification. Another thing that I think will be very surprising to people the first time they race draft legal is the size of the packs - I think many will go in expecting a nice 20km cruise sitting in the draft and quickly learn they are solo or in a very small group for the bike leg with little to no organization and find their legs smoked at T2. Shane I suspect there will be more people currently doing sprint that will move to Olympic than the other way around. This could make Olympic distance even more competitive. Isn't there the risk this becomes a very specialized (read small group) of individuals doing this format ? AG waves could make the drafting interesting. If you suck as a swimmer, just wait for the next wave leaders to pick you up :-) I suspect the time between waves will have to be significant. |
| 2014-07-19 5:45 PM in reply to: rdailey1 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: changes coming to ITU AG worlds Originally posted by rdailey1 I have to admit that I haven't watched enough ITU or other draft legal racing to get a sense, but one of Macca's comments from a couple of years ago really sticks in my head. It's a rinse, blow dry, followed by a foot race. That wasn't Macca, that was Lance and it was his way of discounting a race that he would not have been a factor in; while his swim was decent for long course, he would have been at best 2nd pack, more likely 3rd or worse in the swim. While I have no doubt he could have TTed up to the main group, I can't imagine they would have let him ride off the front, at least to any significant advantage and he would have been smoked on the run. In my experience, pretty much the only athletes who claim a draft legal race is a walk in the park, are those who have never done one. While draft legal events are won on the run (like all triathlons since the run comes last), being a great runner while okay swimmer and cyclist just isn't going to cut it. You need to be great at all three to do well in draft legal racing as swim and cycling weakness will be quickly exposed. Shane |
| 2014-07-19 6:09 PM in reply to: marcag |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: changes coming to ITU AG worlds Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by gsmacleod I suspect there will be more people currently doing sprint that will move to Olympic than the other way around. This could make Olympic distance even more competitive. Isn't there the risk this becomes a very specialized (read small group) of individuals doing this format ? AG waves could make the drafting interesting. If you suck as a swimmer, just wait for the next wave leaders to pick you up :-) I suspect the time between waves will have to be significant. Originally posted by simpsonbo It would be up to your PBG to certify racers. I have had my ATA draft legal certification sin e 2002 or 2003. Yeah, here right now we only certify youth, juniors and anyone who has an ICC (or at least up until last year - not sure right now). I've done most of the certifications over the last Canada Games cycle and I would guess at least half of the triathletes I see on bikes would not earn their certification. Another thing that I think will be very surprising to people the first time they race draft legal is the size of the packs - I think many will go in expecting a nice 20km cruise sitting in the draft and quickly learn they are solo or in a very small group for the bike leg with little to no organization and find their legs smoked at T2. Shane Yep, of course you'll be long out of the race by then. |
| 2014-07-19 6:15 PM in reply to: gsmacleod |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: changes coming to ITU AG worlds Originally posted by gsmacleod Originally posted by rdailey1 I have to admit that I haven't watched enough ITU or other draft legal racing to get a sense, but one of Macca's comments from a couple of years ago really sticks in my head. It's a rinse, blow dry, followed by a foot race. That wasn't Macca, that was Lance and it was his way of discounting a race that he would not have been a factor in; while his swim was decent for long course, he would have been at best 2nd pack, more likely 3rd or worse in the swim. While I have no doubt he could have TTed up to the main group, I can't imagine they would have let him ride off the front, at least to any significant advantage and he would have been smoked on the run. In my experience, pretty much the only athletes who claim a draft legal race is a walk in the park, are those who have never done one. While draft legal events are won on the run (like all triathlons since the run comes last), being a great runner while okay swimmer and cyclist just isn't going to cut it. You need to be great at all three to do well in draft legal racing as swim and cycling weakness will be quickly exposed. Shane Draft legal exposes your weaknesses. You can't hide a subpar swim with an extraordinary bike. You just won't catch the 10 guys who got out of the water together. It means you have to be a complete triathlete, not just a runner, cyclist, or swimmer that can kind of do the other two. |
| 2014-07-19 6:26 PM in reply to: gsmacleod |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: changes coming to ITU AG worlds Originally posted by gsmacleod Yeah, here right now we only certify youth, juniors and anyone who has an ICC (or at least up until last year - not sure right now). I've done most of the certifications over the last Canada Games cycle and I would guess at least half of the triathletes I see on bikes would not earn their certification. Shane, what do you think the certification process will look like in Canada ? |
| 2014-07-19 6:43 PM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: changes coming to ITU AG worlds Originally posted by dmiller5 Draft legal exposes your weaknesses. You can't hide a subpar swim with an extraordinary bike. You just won't catch the 10 guys who got out of the water together. It means you have to be a complete triathlete, not just a runner, cyclist, or swimmer that can kind of do the other two. I see it at the Worlds where all the best are there. I am struggling seeing how this is going to work in AG qualifications. For sure in Canada, there will not be enough people doing this. I took our Canadian Sprint Champs. In my AG, one guy came out 90sec ahead of everyone. They would have caught him because #2, #3 and #4 were all within seconds of each other, all 3 being mediocre swimmers. So because there are so few good swimmers, a swim advantage is not a real advantage. If there were more people in each AG, there would be less chance of this happening. But between certification, equipment, probably fewer races I suspect there will be even fewer people in the races leading up to Worlds......I am not sure how this is going to work. Solution may not to use AGs, but that has a whole bunch of other problems..... THis is going to be interesting. At it has to be sorted out by next summer since that's when qualifications for 2016 occur. Edited by marcag 2014-07-19 6:49 PM |
| 2014-07-19 6:55 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: changes coming to ITU AG worlds Originally posted by marcag [QUOTE/] They would have caught him because #2, #3 and #4 were all within seconds of each other, Depends on their cycling skills....you can't say they would have caught him. I've seen really good swimmers stay away at the Jr. Elite level (better than anything we will see at AG level). And fast swimmer guy can decide to sit up and wait, rest his legs for a big run while the other 3 work hard to catch him.. Lots of strategy in DL racing that doesn't exist at all in non draft racing. The metrics won't change.....swim and run are the big wins in DL racing. Edited by Left Brain 2014-07-19 6:55 PM |
| 2014-07-19 7:55 PM in reply to: marcag |
Veteran 2297 Great White North | Subject: RE: changes coming to ITU AG worlds Depends on the province. In Alberta its a half day bike clinic put on by our PGB (ATA) with a coach who has a certain level of certification. Most likely someone coaching Jr Elite... ie Bart Ujack or the coaches at the ETA. |
| 2014-07-20 8:36 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Pro 6011 Camp Hill, Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: changes coming to ITU AG worlds Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by marcag [QUOTE/] They would have caught him because #2, #3 and #4 were all within seconds of each other, Depends on their cycling skills....you can't say they would have caught him. I've seen really good swimmers stay away at the Jr. Elite level (better than anything we will see at AG level). And fast swimmer guy can decide to sit up and wait, rest his legs for a big run while the other 3 work hard to catch him.. Lots of strategy in DL racing that doesn't exist at all in non draft racing. The metrics won't change.....swim and run are the big wins in DL racing. For me, this is what makes the prospect of more DL racing so exciting! It's not just everyone racing their fastest TT time. Your hypothetical guy has different options to try to punish the guys trying to catch him while setting himself up for a fast run. It becomes more of a thinking game.
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| 2014-07-20 9:19 AM in reply to: marcag |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: changes coming to ITU AG worlds Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by gsmacleod Yeah, here right now we only certify youth, juniors and anyone who has an ICC (or at least up until last year - not sure right now). I've done most of the certifications over the last Canada Games cycle and I would guess at least half of the triathletes I see on bikes would not earn their certification. Shane, what do you think the certification process will look like in Canada ? As Bo pointed out, it will very likely be run by the PGB as they are already doing it although primarily for youth and juniors. While we have run draft certification weekends in the past, I have never actually had to certify someone that I have riden with many times in a variety of group situations so the actual certification process is much more of a development process than a couple of hour check ride. Obviously, there will be a big difference between a youth/junior development group where coaches are regularly training together in preparation for draft legal events and the typical age grouper who is looking to race draft legal to qualify or go to worlds. I expect that there will probably be a call for Introduction to Competition and higher level coaches to conduct some draft certification events and also to run rides at the various clubs focused on getting riders ready for this type of racing. Shane |
| 2014-07-20 11:53 AM in reply to: TriMyBest |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: changes coming to ITU AG worlds Originally posted by TriMyBest Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by marcag [QUOTE/] They would have caught him because #2, #3 and #4 were all within seconds of each other, Depends on their cycling skills....you can't say they would have caught him. I've seen really good swimmers stay away at the Jr. Elite level (better than anything we will see at AG level). And fast swimmer guy can decide to sit up and wait, rest his legs for a big run while the other 3 work hard to catch him.. Lots of strategy in DL racing that doesn't exist at all in non draft racing. The metrics won't change.....swim and run are the big wins in DL racing. For me, this is what makes the prospect of more DL racing so exciting! It's not just everyone racing their fastest TT time. Your hypothetical guy has different options to try to punish the guys trying to catch him while setting himself up for a fast run. It becomes more of a thinking game.
Yep.....I am admittedly biased because I see so much of it, but I've seen a bunch of non-draft triathlon as well. In my mind, without a shadow of doubt, DL racing is the best of triathlon.....the best racing, the best skill set, the most strategy. The cool thing is that all of that transfers over to non-draft racing as well and makes you a better overall triathlete. Still.....if you want to be able to take advantage of the most strategy in a race.....swim more.....a good swim gives you may more race options in the DL format. |
| 2014-07-20 2:49 PM in reply to: gsmacleod |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: changes coming to ITU AG worlds Originally posted by gsmacleod Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by gsmacleod Yeah, here right now we only certify youth, juniors and anyone who has an ICC (or at least up until last year - not sure right now). I've done most of the certifications over the last Canada Games cycle and I would guess at least half of the triathletes I see on bikes would not earn their certification. Shane, what do you think the certification process will look like in Canada ? As Bo pointed out, it will very likely be run by the PGB as they are already doing it although primarily for youth and juniors. While we have run draft certification weekends in the past, I have never actually had to certify someone that I have riden with many times in a variety of group situations so the actual certification process is much more of a development process than a couple of hour check ride. Obviously, there will be a big difference between a youth/junior development group where coaches are regularly training together in preparation for draft legal events and the typical age grouper who is looking to race draft legal to qualify or go to worlds. I expect that there will probably be a call for Introduction to Competition and higher level coaches to conduct some draft certification events and also to run rides at the various clubs focused on getting riders ready for this type of racing. Shane It's going to be interesting. I was at Canadian Championships (the equivalent of AG nationals) and chatted with one of the head coaches of the Quebec elite team, the guy that does talent development in Ontario and the officials from tri Canada and Quebec. The Ontario guy said exactly what you said "a development process". How do you put a program together for AGers so quickly? None of them had heard of this and all of them went "2016, you nuts ?". |
| 2014-07-21 5:24 PM in reply to: marcag |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: changes coming to ITU AG worlds Excellent discussion started by slowman on ST. Love the discourse.....the kids I know are stoked!! |
| 2014-07-21 8:28 PM in reply to: simpsonbo |
Veteran 576 Maple Grove | Subject: RE: changes coming to ITU AG worlds Originally posted by simpsonbo Its a pretty fast rinse my friend. Can you swim 750 without a wetsuit under 9.00? I was never considered "fast" amongst competitive swimmers, even at my absolute peak in high school. In yards, I cracked :25 in a 50 once, 1:00 in a 100 once, 2:05 in the 200 once, and 6:00 in the 500 once. I was a diver! |
| 2014-07-21 8:39 PM in reply to: rdailey1 |
Veteran 2297 Great White North | Subject: RE: changes coming to ITU AG worlds 750 metres not yards... my 800 in the pool was 9.01 SCM this spring. Looking to swim a similar time in LCM. |
| 2014-07-21 8:40 PM in reply to: simpsonbo |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: changes coming to ITU AG worlds Originally posted by simpsonbo 750 metres not yards... my 800 in the pool was 9.01 SCM this spring. Looking to swim a similar time in LCM. But......can you run? |
| 2014-07-21 8:47 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Veteran 576 Maple Grove | Subject: RE: changes coming to ITU AG worlds Originally posted by Left Brain Honestly, the more you guys talk about this, the more interesting it seems. And Shane, you are correct, it was Armstrong talking about a "shampoo, blow dry and a 10k foot race." It apparently caught the ire of Simon Whitfield and started up an exchange of tweets... Old news nowOriginally posted by TriMyBest Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by marcag [QUOTE/] They would have caught him because #2, #3 and #4 were all within seconds of each other, Depends on their cycling skills....you can't say they would have caught him. I've seen really good swimmers stay away at the Jr. Elite level (better than anything we will see at AG level). And fast swimmer guy can decide to sit up and wait, rest his legs for a big run while the other 3 work hard to catch him.. Lots of strategy in DL racing that doesn't exist at all in non draft racing. The metrics won't change.....swim and run are the big wins in DL racing. For me, this is what makes the prospect of more DL racing so exciting! It's not just everyone racing their fastest TT time. Your hypothetical guy has different options to try to punish the guys trying to catch him while setting himself up for a fast run. It becomes more of a thinking game.
Yep.....I am admittedly biased because I see so much of it, but I've seen a bunch of non-draft triathlon as well. In my mind, without a shadow of doubt, DL racing is the best of triathlon.....the best racing, the best skill set, the most strategy. The cool thing is that all of that transfers over to non-draft racing as well and makes you a better overall triathlete. Still.....if you want to be able to take advantage of the most strategy in a race.....swim more.....a good swim gives you may more race options in the DL format. |
| 2014-07-21 10:28 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Veteran 2297 Great White North | Subject: RE: changes coming to ITU AG worlds We shall see... my last 5 k split was 21.30 after getting over injuries and I did stop to puke. So I need to run faster and puke faster too. I know I have 18-19 in my ability I just need to get the work in... hoping for 19.45 or so in Edmonton. I guess we will see how well I do after an 8 day s2im meet. |
| 2014-07-22 8:54 AM in reply to: simpsonbo |
Extreme Veteran 2261 Ridgeland, Mississippi | Subject: RE: changes coming to ITU AG worlds Good thing I'm planning on working on my swim a ton this off-season. |
| 2014-07-22 9:20 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Extreme Veteran 660 | Subject: RE: changes coming to ITU AG worlds Wonder if it will start team racing will riders from earlier waves will hang back for there a racer to come on the bike then drag them around the course so they are ready for the run. Pretty sure draft legal is not for me as I do not trust riding in groups of people I know let alone a bunch of race crazy strangers. How is this going to attract new participants to the sport? |
| 2014-07-22 9:27 AM in reply to: BuckHamilton |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: changes coming to ITU AG worlds Originally posted by BuckHamilton Wonder if it will start team racing will riders from earlier waves will hang back for there a racer to come on the bike then drag them around the course so they are ready for the run. Pretty sure draft legal is not for me as I do not trust riding in groups of people I know let alone a bunch of race crazy strangers. How is this going to attract new participants to the sport? It already does. It attracts thousands of youth and juniors....the absolute future of triathlon. I'd like to see the day when USAT is like USA Swimming, with youth/jr. club teams all over the country and DL races every weekend during the season. It's coming....it will take a few years, but the youth/jr. movement in triathlon is exploding, there are more and more teams every year. In 2020, hoefully, you will see Super Sprint Relay triathlon in the Olympics.....we already see it at the Jr. and Elite level.....it's a blast. If anyone is close, come to Westchester, Ohio the weekend of 8/2-8/3 for the Youth/Jr. Elite National championships......you will be blown away by what you see these kids doing. Sunday is the relay. |
| 2014-07-22 9:32 AM in reply to: msteiner |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: changes coming to ITU AG worlds Originally posted by msteiner Good thing I'm planning on working on my swim a ton this off-season. you and me both. 20k yards a week club? |
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