General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Bonking on the run - like every time... Rss Feed  
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2006-08-15 7:58 PM


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Subject: Bonking on the run - like every time...
So as my second season is coming to a close I reflect upon my progress... and jeez louis, no matter how I place, or how much time I drop, my run always absolutely sucks. I do brick workouts. I run a proper mileage, but I feel like I'm donezo every time I get to the run. I feel like I always "survive" the run portion. I have yet to feel like I can "race" it. Anyone else in/ever been in the same boat???


2006-08-15 8:09 PM
in reply to: #512779

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Subject: RE: Bonking on the run - like every time...
I took a look at your logs and only see one entry, and a 9:00 mile isnt bad, especially if you have only recently started running. Why don't you give us an idea of what your weekly training consists of. You'll get a lot more input that way I think.
2006-08-15 8:12 PM
in reply to: #512779

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Subject: RE: Bonking on the run - like every time...

Hard to tell without knowing you, but maybe poor nutrition, poor pacing, under/over training or all?

2006-08-15 9:14 PM
in reply to: #512779


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Subject: RE: Bonking on the run - like every time...
Yeah... I just started my log today actually, and since my season is over Im trying to step back into a base building stage; hence the 2 workouts and the shorter distances. I have done a 1/2IM and held just under 10min/mile. held about 8:30s for my last olympic, with my peak run workouts being 7:30 for a 10K. My best 5K is a 21:20. I try to do around 20 a week with one brick thats like bike 10 run 2 X2. I usually et a gu every 30 min on the bike and like every other mile or so on the run. I also drink accelerade. Hope this helps...
2006-08-15 9:39 PM
in reply to: #512779

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Subject: RE: Bonking on the run - like every time...
Oh, me too -- I can't seem to finish a run even in a sprint race without walking! I'm competitive on the swim, hold my own on the bike, and DFL on the run. I've been going to our club's track workouts and last week ran my first 8:54 mile marker (compared to my usual run/walk tri/race pace of over 12), and 4 days later completely fell apart at a sprint tri (was way ahead at the swim, still racing well on the bike, and then basically crashed one mile into the hot trail run, shortly after I discovered they had forgotten to put water on the course, which really threw my race plan into chaos). Slowed down, cramped in both legs, and had to walk. Came home and cried, and none of my friends seems to understand why I care. I'm pretty sure for me it's about proper hydration, and I need that "fight through it" attitude. Went out tonight for a run looking for it, though!
2006-08-16 7:22 AM
in reply to: #512884

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Subject: RE: Bonking on the run - like every time...
gailg - 2006-08-15 10:39 PM

Oh, me too -- I can't seem to finish a run even in a sprint race without walking! I'm competitive on the swim, hold my own on the bike, and DFL on the run. I've been going to our club's track workouts and last week ran my first 8:54 mile marker (compared to my usual run/walk tri/race pace of over 12), and 4 days later completely fell apart at a sprint tri (was way ahead at the swim, still racing well on the bike, and then basically crashed one mile into the hot trail run, shortly after I discovered they had forgotten to put water on the course, which really threw my race plan into chaos). Slowed down, cramped in both legs, and had to walk. Came home and cried, and none of my friends seems to understand why I care. I'm pretty sure for me it's about proper hydration, and I need that "fight through it" attitude. Went out tonight for a run looking for it, though!


In addition to hydration, I would look at your prerace week - if this was a key race for you doing a hard track workout (and congrats on the PB on the mile) is not going to help and will more than likely hurt you on race day.

Shane


2006-08-16 7:31 AM
in reply to: #512871

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Subject: RE: Bonking on the run - like every time...

SBRSBRSBR - 2006-08-15 9:14 PM Yeah... I just started my log today actually, and since my season is over Im trying to step back into a base building stage; hence the 2 workouts and the shorter distances. I have done a 1/2IM and held just under 10min/mile. held about 8:30s for my last olympic, with my peak run workouts being 7:30 for a 10K. My best 5K is a 21:20. I try to do around 20 a week with one brick thats like bike 10 run 2 X2. I usually et a gu every 30 min on the bike and like every other mile or so on the run. I also drink accelerade. Hope this helps...

My guess is you aren't pacing properly prior to the run, i.e., going too hard on the swim and/or bike given your current endurance.  Your drop-off from stand-alone runs is pretty steep.  If you pace yourself properly (and have done the training to back it up) your paces should move closer together.

Many people complain about fading on the run and identify the run as their weakness.  It's often the bike that's the problem.

2006-08-16 7:59 AM
in reply to: #512871

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Subject: RE: Bonking on the run - like every time...
SBRSBRSBR - 2006-08-15 9:14 PM Yeah... I just started my log today actually, and since my season is over Im trying to step back into a base building stage; hence the 2 workouts and the shorter distances. I have done a 1/2IM and held just under 10min/mile. held about 8:30s for my last olympic, with my peak run workouts being 7:30 for a 10K. My best 5K is a 21:20. I try to do around 20 a week with one brick thats like bike 10 run 2 X2. I usually et a gu every 30 min on the bike and like every other mile or so on the run. I also drink accelerade. Hope this helps...

Your stand alone running times are way off compared to your tri running time. In "general" you should be able to run around 5-10% over your distance PR on a tri. BUT you need proper training (plenty of time biking) smart pacing and a solid nutrition plan.

2006-08-16 8:18 AM
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Subject: RE: Bonking on the run - like every time...
amiine - 2006-08-16 8:59 AM

Your stand alone running times are way off compared to your tri running time. In "general" you should be able to run around 5-10% over your distance PR on a tri. BUT you need proper training (plenty of time biking) smart pacing and a solid nutrition plan.



Wanted to echo what Jorge is saying here - I recently completed my first HIM and I had hoped to run around 1:45-1:50. However, despite going super easy on the swim and easy on the bike, I still went too hard on the bike and ended up running 2:06. Definitely a lesson learned for next time.

Overall, pacing is cruical to success - my strongest discipline is swimming, however I am rarely close to the FOP out of the water (and I could usually be close in my races) but swim conservatively. My goal in most races is to improve my ranking throughout - if my ranking improves throughout the race (especially since I know I'm not the best biker or runner in the fields) I'm happy with my pacing.

Shane
2006-08-16 8:50 AM
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Subject: RE: Bonking on the run - like every time...
SBRSBRSBR - 2006-08-15 5:58 PM

I feel like I always "survive" the run portion. I have yet to feel like I can "race" it. Anyone else in/ever been in the same boat???


I am sure most people have been in the same boat at some point. This is a function of your run volume. It has nothing to do with your talent, once you build enough volume over time, the run will become a strong part of your game, and you will be flooring it until the end. Running is so hard, it can't be cheated the way a ride can (yes, you can easy spin and coast, all that good stuff). There are mysteries in this sport, this ain't one of them.
2006-08-16 9:08 AM
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Subject: RE: Bonking on the run - like every time...
us50090 - 2006-08-16 8:50 AM
SBRSBRSBR - 2006-08-15 5:58 PM I feel like I always "survive" the run portion. I have yet to feel like I can "race" it. Anyone else in/ever been in the same boat???
I am sure most people have been in the same boat at some point. This is a function of your run volume. It has nothing to do with your talent, once you build enough volume over time, the run will become a strong part of your game, and you will be flooring it until the end. Running is so hard, it can't be cheated the way a ride can (yes, you can easy spin and coast, all that good stuff). There are mysteries in this sport, this ain't one of them.
I am not so sure about that one. You can log 40 miles a week for running volume and still end up walking the run portion of a tri, if you don’t pace correctly, your nutrition is poor, your bike/swim training are not adequate or all. Also you can run less than 20 miles a week and still post a strong run split.


2006-08-16 9:21 AM
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Subject: RE: Bonking on the run - like every time...

I really dont have a super strong area but I am always concerned about the run.  I basically pace myself on feel to ensure that I have enough in the tank to pound on the run.

About 4 years ago, I was a 9 min miler for a 5 mile course.  It took me 2 years to get to 8.  Not very strategic workouts, just going out and doing it.  So I'm sitting at 8 and get to thinking about one of my friends who does 5:30 min miles for a MARATHON.  I stew about this for a while and think if he can do it for a whole marathon, why cant I do it for just one mile.  So that day I decided I was a 7 min miler.  I was not going to go 7:50, 7:40, 7:30...too long.  I want it now.  I went out and did 7:20 and started holding close to that pace.  This year I wanted to get under 7.  Again struggled with 7:10, 7:15.  Finally I just had enough and did a 6:48 for 5 miles.

Not to bore you with my story but some of this is mental.  Of course you actually need to be able to do it.  I can try to will myself all I want but I will never see 6.0 min miles.  BUT, in training you can get there.  Race day is different.  You sound to be really hitting a wall.  From the sounds of it you have nutrition covered, hydration a handle on, so what's left?  Genetics?  You cant run and everyone else can?  No, you likely need a stronger base for both running and biking.

2006-08-16 10:27 AM
in reply to: #512779


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Subject: RE: Bonking on the run - like every time...
I will agree that I'm pushing the bike a little too hard, but man its hard not to go as fast as you can. When I saw that I was holding over 20mph for my HIM I couldn't let that slip, so I guess that set my run up for a bit of a bonk. I will say though, in my HIM my laps (3) got progressively way better. Lap one I questioned my ability to finish. After an inspiring chat with a bonked pro, and my fair share of gu's lap 3 felt like euphoria. I ran the last lap way faster.

How can I get that "Im feeling good" earlier in the run? more Gu, less Gu, crack??
2006-08-16 10:31 AM
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Subject: RE: Bonking on the run - like every time...

SBRSBRSBR - 2006-08-16 10:27 AM I will agree that I'm pushing the bike a little too hard......How can I get that "Im feeling good" earlier in the run? more Gu, less Gu, crack??

Go slower on the bike.  Sorry, it's not rocket science.

2006-08-16 1:44 PM
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Subject: RE: Bonking on the run - like every time...
amiine - 2006-08-16 7:08 AM

You can log 40 miles a week for running volume and still end up walking the run portion of a tri, if you don’t pace correctly, your nutrition is poor, your bike/swim training are not adequate or all. Also you can run less than 20 miles a week and still post a strong run split.


With 40k a week run volume, pretty hard to kill yourself for the run in a short distance race, but sure is possible in half iron and up. My overall bias in this sport is that over-distance training tends to be the solution to almost all endurance problems in every segment, even swimming which is quite technical. Not just my experience either, many elite athletes say the same thing from Brad Kearns to Faris Al Sultan. What goes on in this sport is a lot of over-thinking the problem where as volume is usually the first place to go and look for answers. I am guilty of the same thing: I have often been at my wit's end with the swim thing until somebody pointed out to me I really needed to double up on volume, it's amazing what that does. Easy to say, hard to do.
2006-08-16 2:20 PM
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Subject: RE: Bonking on the run - like every time...

us50090 - Still, as a coach you have to identify the strengths, weaknesses and limiters of your athletes to optimize their training. It is not just run, bike and swim A LOT and you'll become better. Yes chances are that if you follow that and avoid injuries you will improve no matter what, BUT you have to be able to absorb that work load and allow your body to adapt.

i.e. I don’t have a lot of endurance base under my belt (less than 2 years and only one year of appropriate training) but my coach (very smart dude ) knows I am a good runner and we’ve been working on my swim and bike a lot instead of spending lot of hours running. I run frequently but my running volume is been limited (check my logs) considering my goals (HIMs) and results. Still I’ve been continue to improve on all 3 sports because I get out of the water less spent and I am stronger on the bike, hence I can run better/faster. I personally think that my coach is doing a great job optimizing my training plan by addressing my limiters

So, let me ask you this: Do you think I could be getting better results (running faster) by working less on my swim and bike and adding more volume to my run?



2006-08-16 3:13 PM
in reply to: #512779


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Subject: RE: Bonking on the run - like every time...
I see what your saying.

So me being a strong swimmer and semi strong biker I should cut swim time and put it towards running. Along the lines of the post above yours?
2006-08-16 3:18 PM
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Subject: RE: Bonking on the run - like every time...
amiine - 2006-08-16 10:08 AM
I am not so sure about that one. You can log 40 miles a week for running volume and still end up walking the run portion of a tri, if you don’t pace correctly, your nutrition is poor, your bike/swim training are not adequate or all.


Yes, see my Eagleman race report for an example of that ....... ;-P
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