SBR "U" (Page 60)

Sports bra, dude!

But I'll support your #ToplessWomenInTri agenda. Equality - right?

You guys got me wondering how many races actually don't allow wetsuits.  I guess Kona and Cozumel, and Texas is iffy?  All the races I've done have allowed them so far - including Western Australia which was hot, but the water was still within range.

We hardly ever have any wetsuit-legal races around here, unless they are very early in the season. Just about the only time I ever get to wear mine is when I travel to races.

It was a bit of a surprise for me when Galveston went optional.  Coming from NE, I'd never been in (or even heard of) a regional race that wasn't wetsuit legal (I'm sure there must be some examples, just not IME).  Honestly, I hadn't even really thought there was a chance of it at Galveston - which was just poor pre-race consideration / planning on my part (this is Texas, and the race was 3 weeks later than normal).

Of course, other folks on a certain thread (OK, THIS thread) were way ahead of me and were prepared... 

Not sure if you're only thinking of IM, but I wonder how many go optional or illegal at the HIM level?  Oly/sprint?  Likely many of the latter, as they are more local and shallow bodies heat up quickly.  Still interesting to consider...

Matt

That's why I'm following the received wisdom from here and swimming with masters on occasion.  Figure I need to learn to swim without the full body PFD! 

Matt

Matt - I had the distinct "pleasure" of racing at Lake Placid in 2011 when it went the "optional" route where if you wanted to contend for a Kona slot you had to go without,  but if not you were free to do as you please. WTC had not really thought that through, and the only thing they did was enter the two different groups through two different timing arches - it was still a deep-water mass start. Somewhat Interestingly you could see a fair number of folks that went out into the lake to warm up without a wetsuit (ostensibly through the non-wetsuit arch) but then were on the beach putting on their wetsuits. But that is another story I suppose.

Only about 9% of the athletes chose to go non-wetsuit, and let me tell you, that was easily the roughest swim I have ever been in. I got a little anxious just at the start when all the wetsuit folks closed in on us - the only way I could breath was to bob down underwater and then come up for air between them before I was pushed under again. And then I was swam over so many times by folks riding high in the water with extra flotation it was unbelievable. So At least WTC has figured it out a little better after that debacle.

One year I did Lake Stevens (70.3) it was wetsuit legal for AG, but not for pros.  That's as close as I've been to the temperature cutoff and it was pretty warm with it on.  I'm comfortable swimming without it, but I can see the potential hazard in a mass start situation where it's mixed.

Yes, I am pretty sure after Lake Placid they have not tried another mixed mass start. I learned a valuable lesson that day: always bring all of your wetsuit. I had no thought that I was in Kona contention, but I simply felt that the water was way too hot for an Ironman. We do most of our OWS in lakes that are way too hot, and it is crazy the physical toll that takes on you without realizing it. I am guessing that folks that always swim in cool water have no idea what 1:10~1:20 spent swimming in 79+ degree water can do to you. Thee were a lot of very bad days had by folks that year in LP. 

Had I brought my speed tube with me to Lake Placid though, I probably would have worn it - that thing is awesome when temps are close to cut-off.

Miami was wetsuit optional with the wetsuits going in the last wave.

For as long as I've been doing them around here, there has only been one race that didn't allow them.  When they announced it, some people packed up and left....

As I think Marc has said, the wetsuits went in the last wave at Galveston, too.  Seemed to work OK - but I wasn't in the penultimate wave getting mowed down by anyone, either...

There was a LOT of angst in the air - you could practically smell it - when they made the announcement.  As an aside, I was surprised by how many people wore the suits.  I guess I thought that by the time you felt ready to do a HIM, your swimming would be solid enough to go without a wetsuit (even if that meant a significantly slower time) and not be too concerned about it.

Got me wondering how many people out there were in over their head (sorry) wrt the swim and their fitness/ability.  I get wearing one if you want to, and there were certainly many fit/skilled swimmers who chose to because they just wanted to swim with one, but from what I heard in transition before the race, a LOT of people were deciding to wear one for fear of the swim itself (not for getting run over or the like, but just being able to get through it).

I'm even OK with that, as it's all about the experience and having fun (for me - since I won't be putting food on the table doing this!).  So I have no problem with people getting out there even if they need the wetsuit - and it's their job to manage risk doing so.  However, I do worry about safety for that subset of folks.

For those who've raced a lot more, any thoughts?  Is this just pre-race nervous comments from some people, or is there a subset (significant?) of folks on the ragged edge of being able to complete the swim in races you've seen/run/volunteered at, etc.?

Matt

I don't know if I've heard it much in pre-race conversations but I've seen a fair share of people holding on to kayaks or moving outside the pack because they were struggling.  And this was all in wetsuit-legal races.

I wish more people would go through a lifeguarding class because it's not all about rescues.  It really puts an emphasis on survival skills that give you more confidence in the water.  It won't directly help your speed.  But if something goes wrong, you know how to float on your back, you've done "drownproofing", sidestroke, etc.  Not to mention dealing with a swimmer in a panic - how to escape and all that... makes you less worried when you're crowded or someone swims over you.

Wetsuits aren't a replacement for water safety knowledge.  I also think poor swimmers sometimes don't properly stay back at the start *because* they're wearing wetsuits, and then they get trampled.

Also up here in the northwest, water temp varies widely depending if it's a lake or ocean, and if it's glacier runoff.  Lake Stevens in July is upper 70s / 80.  Lake Coeur d'Alene at the end of June can be 50-60.  I've seen a lot of situations (poor swimmers once again) where they a) don't test a wetsuit much before the race, and b) don't test in cold water.  Something like IM CdA, that cold water and wetsuit constriction can create panic in a hurry.

I've had some non-wetsuit swims, but when I think of it none of the mixed ones were bigger races. Louisville and Las Vegas there was no choice as it was that warm. At some local ones I've opted not to use the wetsuit when I could have, but I think the wave size is no more than 50 so it's really not the same thing. One was deep water and I was off the back of the crowd immediately as I'm really slow starting there and it was the elite amateur wave. The other I could run farther out and dive better than most people so lost a good deal of the crowd there as it was an elite amateur plus clyde/athena mix. A few knuckleheads hammered the start, but quickly fell off.

Oh, my second race ever was my first lake swim for a race, but I just walked in and let everyone else go. I didn't care about the :15-:20 and probably swam better being out of the scrum.

I have zero science to back it up, but what seemed to work for me when I switched from 3.5 years of IM-focused training back to short course was to:

A) swim a lot more. I seem to maintain at about 8000 ~9000 yards per week. To be anywhere close to being in contact with the fish at the regional level I had to double that, and should have done more.

B) introduced a lot more stochastic work on both the bike and run. So lots more hill and trail running, and more fast group rides for the shorter stuff and mountain climbing on the longer rides.

C) lighten up. I found it near impossible to get my weight down while I was training for long course races, but taking the weight off for short course was huge both in training and recovery. I remember seeing a study a number of years ago that compared the IM weight of pro athletes (both men and women) to their OLY race weight in the same year. The difference range from 2.5% To 4%, but the short course weight was always less.

D) Don't fall into the trap of thinking you can train less because the race distance is shorter. In my last and most competitive IM year I averaged 13.5 hours per week of training over 52 weeks. To be AG competitive at the sprint and Olympic distance last year I averaged 13.9 hours per week over 52 weeks, and that included a fair number of 18~19 hour weeks during the season.

E) Race lots! after several years of putting all my eggs in so few baskets, this was a lot of fun, took the pressure off any one race, and actually seemed to keep me fresh, sharp, and focused.

While I think there is some merit to the observations about long course athletes  being under-prepared (especially for the swim) what I witnessed in Lake Placid was way different than that. People who were clearly fit and prepared were literally freaking out. Days ahead of the event - it was all anyone wanted to talk about. I think triathletes in general (and IM athletes in particular) are so dependent on the narrative that what they are involved in is so difficult that they begin to believe it actually is. it really isn't; most folks could complete the distance if it was something they decided to do. As far as ultra-endurance events go, a supported ironman really barely qualifies IMHO. obviously it does have some degree of difficulty, but nowhere near say, a 50 mile trail race.

Also, I think triathletes (again, particularly the IM bunch) are so rigidly fixated on their "plan" that the slightest deviation causes them to freak out and melt down, which in some weird way is connected to my first point. For me the real fun of ultra racing is not so much when everything goes right, but rather having the agility and contingency training to stay calm, think laterally, and basically keep your sh*t together when everything goes south.

90 minutes sounds like plenty long for the run. For the bike, it becomes more about getting in lots. 2 hours is much more than the race will take, but going farther is a good way to get your overall volume up as biking doesn't have impact to deal with that running does. You can put the ride times together instead of like in running where you would do more smaller ones.

Rusty, what did you mean by stochastic?

Also agree with D. People tend to put less time in the shorter events as they are easier to just get through with them being smaller, but to really do your best the time spent will be similar regardless of what you're doing. It's the type of workouts that change, and even then it's not necessarily as much as some think.

Some good observations here from Rusty. I'll offer up myself as an example, although never done an IM. I'm a slow swimmer. Not weak necessarily, but very slow. I've done several stand alone 2.4 OWS in crowded/choppy/current ocean and felt great, other than being near dead last to finish. I've finished a HIM easy lake swim and could have happily done a second loop except there was that bike/run thing to get done. However, I've also panicked in the water at an easy OLY swim and had to ride the boat back to shore. I don't know why I feel so dependent on a wetsuit, but I do. I swim with my club and can knock out a 2400 scy workout in less than hour and feel great. There's no real reason that I NEED a wetsuit, other than if water is cold (and up here it usually is wetsuit legal).  But I want a wetsuit. Neurotic. Probably. That said, If you need someone to stay calm and keep their together in a work or personal crisis- I'm your pick. It's kind of what I do best. 

I do think that too many, very fit, tapered athletes, congregating together (via social media might even intensify the effect) adds to the anxiety creep.

I guess I hadn't really thought about it, but I know WTC requires men to wear a top on the run, so I assumed they would on the swim as well.  I know some other organizations don't have a top-required policy (at least for the men!).

Most (all?) local races will be non-wetsuit legal May through September.  Galveston 70.3 has always been legal in the past, but they moved it back three weeks this year and ended up being optional.  We had a freak mild spring last year, which resulted in IMTX being wetsuit legal, but that won't be happening this year!  Most other local races are in shallow lakes, where water temp will be in the high-80's.

High 80's?  That's a tough temp in which to swim period, for me at least, never mind with anything more than jammers on.  People must come out of the water totally gassed!

As for the M2, just looked at that after the above exchange (getting up to speed on gear).  @Marc - is that what Potts had rolled down under his swim skin?  Was that because of the no-sleeves on a non-wetsuit swim rule (IIRC)? 

I'm guessing that would be incompatible with any one piece tri suit.  So, would you wear a two piece and switch tops in T1?  Wear a tri bottom and speed-suit, strop off the speed suit and put on (or roll up) the M2 in T1?  Does the DeSoto come in a 2 piece variation?

Neither would require a complete change, as would going from DeSoto to and M2 or tri bottom and M2 top, or being topless except for a brief moment in T1.  Would that be legal?

Just wondering how best to work that out logistically...

Matt

Rusty, having read your RR's (and a few others), it is apparent to me that  you are not in the majority of racers, and by that I mean that you have the ability to take what is thrown at you and react positively to it. I volunteered in the first year of Rev3 Venice, which canceled the swim, due to water conditions. You've not seen so many happy people.  My point is twofold, I guess. 1) Triathletes in general (generalities will always get you in trouble, so please excuse that) are fairly set in their ways, so much so that changes throw them for a loop. 2) The only caveat to this is if you remove the swim from a race. That change is welcome for many.

I am a very warm weather guy and have never raced in a wetsuit (heck, I've used it once in training), so take it all with a grain of salt. But the wetsuit in general seems to be much like a pacifier for many. It makes us comfortable.

And faster. 

Honestly, I think that many people who are capable of swimming just fine without one want to wear it for the speed.  Like me!    I think of it like a super-hero swim costume...

I'm sure there are lots of folks who, as expounded upon by many above, do wear it as a PFD.    I'd bet, though, that some of the people that chose to wear it in Galveston could have finished the swim comfortably without it but wanted the time savings (in that intermediate zone where they don't have aspirations to podium or NC spot, but might want to PR the distance and don't race it often, or something like that).  Nothing wrong with that - all about enjoying the event (as long as you don't swim up over me!).

I was weirdly excited in Galveston to have them not allowed, as I wanted to see what I could do (was my first race without one).  So, I guess I fell into a slightly different group - no thoughts of a podium performance, or a personal PR, but rather a "non-wetsuit HIM PR."  Gives me another target to shoot for next time it happens!   

Also kind of gets to the flexibility of mind-set point.  I like to have plan B and C on tap in case something goes south.  This turned out to be a "plan D" of sorts, as it wasn't something I contemplated seriously prior to the race, but turned into one of the more exciting pieces of the overall race - to see what time I could throw down on the swim without a wetsuit.

OK, now I'm off to the tri store to look for a DeSoto suit.  I hope they have my size.

Matt

If people in Galveston chose to swim in the wetsuit to have an overall faster time, they were probably disappointed because it got HOT on the run toward the end of the day.  I would much rather have chosen to swim with no wetsuit if I could have started at 7am!

And yeah, lake swims in Houston get into the upper 80's....it's pretty awful.  It's certainly too warm to want to swim hard.  Those are temps you'll see in the August/September time frame....probably more in the low 80's from May through July. 

How big are the lakes? Wondering if it'd be better to just run around them.