flip turns or open turns?? (Page 3)

I'd veer off into the wrong lane!

It's not a matter of being inferior or superior......it's a matter of what helps someone become a better swimmer.  Flip turns do.  It's really not arguable.

LB, yes, I have gotten faster with age.  I'm in the 45-49 AG and just set personal best times at a recent swim meet.  I qualified for USMS Nats in the 50 fly.  I was less than a sec away from NQTs in 50 free, 50 back, and 50 breast.   :shrug:

But this thread is about flip turns or not.  And I will say, do them if you want.  But its a different skill than swimming fast in open water. You can be a competitive swimmer without them.  For someone who's trying to be a better tri swimmer, focusing more on balance, rotation, breathing both sides, having a good catch, etc. are much more relevant skills to learn.

Can we all agree on that?

No, you can't.

You can be IN a competitive swim meet without them......but you can't be competitive in a swim meet without them.  You just can't.  I stand on a pool deck for 10-15 meets a year as an official......some kids do open turns.  They get wiped out by the kids who flip turn.  In fact, they aren't even in the game.  While it's true that not doing flip turns isn't their only problem......the fact that they can't do them says volumes about their swim ability.

Where I fall off the page is when people try to push the idea that triathlon swimming, and triathlon swim training, is somehow different than regular swim training.  Of course it's not.  The only difference is that most people training for a triathlon can't swim, and therefore can't even think about doing flip turns.....or don't want to. Swimming is swimming.  Are there other things to work on besides flip turns as you learn to swim.....of course.  But what's to stop someone from practicing a couple flip turns at the end of a workout.  As you become a better swimmer, flip turns will help you increase that learning curve.  Again, it's really not arguable.  Doing flip turns will help you become a better swimmer. 

Two ships passing in a stream.

Cheers.  Be well.

Good luck at Masters Nationals!!  Getting there as an adult onset swimmer is no small feat.  Congrats!

Congrats on qualifying !   But missing the cut by 1 second in the 50 free proves they matter.   You can't be competitive in the pool without them.   

Im not trying to take anything away from your gains in swimming and accomplishment so I hope this doesn't come off that way.  Again congrats.  

I don't understand flip turn threads.    

Most people are beginner triathletes but are more than likely to be veteran in one of the disciplines.

There is a big misconception about what I've said in this thread.  My apologies for that.  I do flip turns when racing in a pool. (I usually don't on most practice laps.)  Flip turns absolutely are faster than open turns.  Its not anywhere close to debatable that they aren't faster in a pool.  I have also never said not to do them.

The point that I've been trying to make all along is that if someone is trying to become a good, competitive TRIATHLON swimmer, which is usually competed in open water, then mastering flip turns is well down the list of ways to improve.  Really to the point of not needing to bother.  Someone who averages, say, a 1:40/100 pace in open water will likely get much better gains by focusing on body position/balance, catch, rotation, etc. than by merely adding flip turns to their repertoire.  Someone can get to a ~30 minute HIM swim without flip turns.  That's my whole point.

Cheers everyone.  Thanks for the well wishes at Nationals.  It should be a fun experience

I totally agree, and I also wouldn't consider that a fast or competitive time.

Actually, if you look up some HIM race times 30min will be competitive. 

oops you're right. I was looking at when he said 1:40/100 pace and assumed that's what 30 min swim was. a 30 min swim is 1:30 pace.

1:40 pace is 33:20

Even so, I wouldn't consider that competitive for a male age grouper. 

more important in short course as well. If you give up 4 minutes to me in an Olympic, see ya later.

There is nobody winning or placing in HIM (in the competitive groups) who can't do flip turns in a swim workout.

Most of them can because if you swim enough to become a good swimmer, chances are you will learn the ability to do flip turns at some point.  But I knew a guy who was quite competitive (KQer) and I never saw him do a single flip turn in 10 years of training.  I assume he could, because I know he learned to swim as a kid.  He just didn't have the need to do so very often.

No doubt.....but it's also what helps make them good swimmers.  Look, there are NO good swimmers who can't flip turn.  Your KQ example is no exception.

That's not what you said before though - you said you can't win or place in HIM without knowing how to flip turn, which is not the case.  You can be a mediocre swimmer and still place at HIM and IM distance. 

It is what I said before.....that KQ guy knows how to do flip turns.

But yeah,  maybe in long course you can get on the podium with an avg. swim if you can bike and run well.  I'd still bet there are damn few who can't do flip turns. 

Then again, I don't care at all about long course racing.