Treadmill-only training looks pretty legit to Lionel Sanders
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2015-04-24 10:30 AM |
1660 | Subject: Treadmill-only training looks pretty legit to Lionel Sanders Neat blogpost I ran across while perusing slowtwitch.com - it's from Lionel Sanders, who if you haven't heard of, is a monster up and coming (ok, he's here already) triathlete who has a running background, and wins his races by crushing the bike and then super crushing the run. (He's one of those who actually does lose the race on the swim, even though he's getting better and better at it.) He's arguably at the very top tier of triathlon runners today, and can arguably be the best on a good day.
http://lsanderstri.com/2015/04/21/in-defence-of-the-treadmill/
"I should also mention that I have done just about every run over the last 5.5 months on the treadmill. I ran 6 times outside when I went to Arizona for a short training camp, and then I ran outside at Oceanside 70.3. I have done a total of 8 runs outside in the last 5.5 months. I should also mention that the fastest I have run in the last 5.5 months is 12 miles per hour. The reason: My treadmill only goes 12 miles per hour. I am a big believer that the treadmill is just as good as running outside, if not better. It is the CompuTrainer of running in a sense. I am always bothered when I encounter haters of the treadmill. The classic argument is that “the treadmill does the work for you, you just have to turn your legs.” I have logged over 5000km in the last year and a half on the treadmill, and I have never experienced the treadmill “doing the work for me.” I thought the Loaring Run Under the Sun performance was an interesting anecdote in defense of the treadmill."
He also says he feels best when he's running 86 mpw (140km). Not only is that a lot of mileage even for a pro triathlete, but that's a crazy amount of INDOOR mileage! In my opinion, this endorsement and practice from one of the top triathlon runners active today, pretty much ends the argument of whether training on a treadmill exclusively is as good as training outdoors, or whether you need to 'run regularly outdoors' in addition to the treadmill to maintain run ability. Edited by yazmaster 2015-04-24 10:31 AM |
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2015-04-24 10:40 AM in reply to: yazmaster |
Member 1748 Exton, PA | Subject: RE: Treadmill-only training looks pretty legit to Lionel Sanders I read about him last year- he is a monster. If he start to keep up on the swim he'll be winning al the time. As for the tread mill, over the last 2 years I have started to do much more on the tread mill. much easier for me to get winter runs in. I tend to push my pace and do interval work harder Helps me prepare for warm weather running when is cold out helps the mental aspect of running- if I can get those miles in on the mill, makes going outside and running very pleasant If I do too much on the tread mill something usually starts hurting. |
2015-04-24 10:47 AM in reply to: yazmaster |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Treadmill-only training looks pretty legit to Lionel Sanders Originally posted by yazmaster Neat blogpost I ran across while perusing slowtwitch.com - it's from Lionel Sanders, who if you haven't heard of, is a monster up and coming (ok, he's here already) triathlete who has a running background, and wins his races by crushing the bike and then super crushing the run. (He's one of those who actually does lose the race on the swim, even though he's getting better and better at it.) He's arguably at the very top tier of triathlon runners today, and can arguably be the best on a good day.
http://lsanderstri.com/2015/04/21/in-defence-of-the-treadmill/
"I should also mention that I have done just about every run over the last 5.5 months on the treadmill. I ran 6 times outside when I went to Arizona for a short training camp, and then I ran outside at Oceanside 70.3. I have done a total of 8 runs outside in the last 5.5 months. I should also mention that the fastest I have run in the last 5.5 months is 12 miles per hour. The reason: My treadmill only goes 12 miles per hour. I am a big believer that the treadmill is just as good as running outside, if not better. It is the CompuTrainer of running in a sense. I am always bothered when I encounter haters of the treadmill. The classic argument is that “the treadmill does the work for you, you just have to turn your legs.” I have logged over 5000km in the last year and a half on the treadmill, and I have never experienced the treadmill “doing the work for me.” I thought the Loaring Run Under the Sun performance was an interesting anecdote in defense of the treadmill."
He also says he feels best when he's running 86 mpw (140km). Not only is that a lot of mileage even for a pro triathlete, but that's a crazy amount of INDOOR mileage! In my opinion, this endorsement and practice from one of the top triathlon runners active today, pretty much ends the argument of whether training on a treadmill exclusively is as good as training outdoors, or whether you need to 'run regularly outdoors' in addition to the treadmill to maintain run ability. So I guess you've changed your idea that just because an elite athlete does something it doesn't mean it applies to AG'ers, huh?
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2015-04-24 10:54 AM in reply to: yazmaster |
Master 2802 Minnetonka, Minnesota | Subject: RE: Treadmill-only training looks pretty legit to Lionel Sanders My thinking is life is too short to run on a treadmill unless one has too. Here was my run last night: (Mtka Trail.jpg) Attachments ---------------- Mtka Trail.jpg (150KB - 4 downloads) |
2015-04-24 10:58 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
1660 | Subject: RE: Treadmill-only training looks pretty legit to Lionel Sanders Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by yazmaster Neat blogpost I ran across while perusing slowtwitch.com - it's from Lionel Sanders, who if you haven't heard of, is a monster up and coming (ok, he's here already) triathlete who has a running background, and wins his races by crushing the bike and then super crushing the run. (He's one of those who actually does lose the race on the swim, even though he's getting better and better at it.) He's arguably at the very top tier of triathlon runners today, and can arguably be the best on a good day.
http://lsanderstri.com/2015/04/21/in-defence-of-the-treadmill/
"I should also mention that I have done just about every run over the last 5.5 months on the treadmill. I ran 6 times outside when I went to Arizona for a short training camp, and then I ran outside at Oceanside 70.3. I have done a total of 8 runs outside in the last 5.5 months. I should also mention that the fastest I have run in the last 5.5 months is 12 miles per hour. The reason: My treadmill only goes 12 miles per hour. I am a big believer that the treadmill is just as good as running outside, if not better. It is the CompuTrainer of running in a sense. I am always bothered when I encounter haters of the treadmill. The classic argument is that “the treadmill does the work for you, you just have to turn your legs.” I have logged over 5000km in the last year and a half on the treadmill, and I have never experienced the treadmill “doing the work for me.” I thought the Loaring Run Under the Sun performance was an interesting anecdote in defense of the treadmill."
He also says he feels best when he's running 86 mpw (140km). Not only is that a lot of mileage even for a pro triathlete, but that's a crazy amount of INDOOR mileage! In my opinion, this endorsement and practice from one of the top triathlon runners active today, pretty much ends the argument of whether training on a treadmill exclusively is as good as training outdoors, or whether you need to 'run regularly outdoors' in addition to the treadmill to maintain run ability. So I guess you've changed your idea that just because an elite athlete does something it doesn't mean it applies to AG'ers, huh?
No, I take each situation specifically. I'm not saying that all AGers SHOULD do what LS is doing, nor is he a model of the type of training a normal AGers should aspire to (you'd break yourself in the process.)
But for the specific arguments that you hear all the time on this forum that "TMs are NOT the real thing", "You need to train outdoors in addition to TM work", "it's a bad idea to only train on the TM only - you'll get slower", taking an example from one of the best world-class athletes who does almost entirely TM work is one of the best counterarguments to these situations.
Totally different situation than saying I'm endorsing what elites do as models of what AGers should aim to do - most AGers training should look nothing like professional triathletes or elite triathletes who can tolerate super high volume, high speeds, and don't have a job outside of triathlon to balance training with. |
2015-04-24 11:13 AM in reply to: yazmaster |
Extreme Veteran 959 Greenwood, South Carolina | Subject: RE: Treadmill-only training looks pretty legit to Lionel Sanders I have a simple rule in my training. "I don't do it if I am not enjoying it." I can do a treadmill every now and then and actually find a way to enjoy it but I much prefer to run outside. People ask me how I can run outside in the cold, rain, etc. but the fact is I enjoy a lot more over running inside on a treadmill. I travel in my job and love running in new areas of the country. I could jump on a treadmill in the hotel but I love seeing new cities and new routes across the country. I can tolerate the trainer for the bike but give me the open roads any day over being stuck inside. To each his own. What ever works but I would not be racing if all my training was on a treadmill or trainer. |
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2015-04-24 11:21 AM in reply to: GODAWGS |
261 | Subject: RE: Treadmill-only training looks pretty legit to Lionel Sanders Originally posted by GODAWGS I have a simple rule in my training. "I don't do it if I am not enjoying it." I can do a treadmill every now and then and actually find a way to enjoy it but I much prefer to run outside. People ask me how I can run outside in the cold, rain, etc. but the fact is I enjoy a lot more over running inside on a treadmill. I travel in my job and love running in new areas of the country. I could jump on a treadmill in the hotel but I love seeing new cities and new routes across the country. I can tolerate the trainer for the bike but give me the open roads any day over being stuck inside. To each his own. What ever works but I would not be racing if all my training was on a treadmill or trainer. Totally agree. I really hate the dreadmill. For some reason I don't dislike the bike trainer nearly as much. If I don't enjoy my training on some level I just can't do it. One of the reasons I like triathlons is it pushes me to be active in 3 different sports. It keeps it more enjoyable. When I was training for a marathon and mostly just running I was so sick of running by the end. |
2015-04-24 12:30 PM in reply to: yazmaster |
Oakville | Subject: RE: Treadmill-only training looks pretty legit to Lionel Sanders I bought my first treadmill last fall and glad I did. We had a brutal amount of snow in Southern Ontario and I doubt that I could have managed 1 decent outdoor run a week. Basically would have been forced to run on the indoor 100 meter track at the Y, which is just as mind-numbing as the treadmill IMO. The added benefit is greater control for speedwork (even when running outdoors, I tend to do all speedwork at the Y on the treadmill) and for hill intervals (quite flat where I live). I was worried whether the treadmill miles would translate to outdoor miles, and my n=1 experience is that they are comparable. I had a 5K race a few weeks ago and was only a few seconds off my time from the same race last year with conditions being nearly identical. |
2015-04-24 1:16 PM in reply to: Scott71 |
Seattle | Subject: RE: Treadmill-only training looks pretty legit to Lionel Sanders I guess I didn't realize that there was a strong belief that treadmills weren't "legit" methods for training. I suppose you lack some specificity of running surface but if I was forced to do all my running inside for one reason or another, I wouldn't worry I was under-prepared. I would just not be very enjoyable. |
2015-04-24 1:25 PM in reply to: Asalzwed |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: Treadmill-only training looks pretty legit to Lionel Sanders Originally posted by Asalzwed I guess I didn't realize that there was a strong belief that treadmills weren't "legit" methods for training. I suppose you lack some specificity of running surface but if I was forced to do all my running inside for one reason or another, I wouldn't worry I was under-prepared. I would just not be very enjoyable. I think the not "legit" part refers to the speed. running a 7 min mile on a treadmill may not translate to a 7 min mile on the road. Probably depends on the age, quality, and maintenance of the equipment. |
2015-04-24 1:28 PM in reply to: dmiller5 |
Pro 6191 | Subject: RE: Treadmill-only training looks pretty legit to Lionel Sanders Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by Asalzwed I guess I didn't realize that there was a strong belief that treadmills weren't "legit" methods for training. I suppose you lack some specificity of running surface but if I was forced to do all my running inside for one reason or another, I wouldn't worry I was under-prepared. I would just not be very enjoyable. I think the not "legit" part refers to the speed. running a 7 min mile on a treadmill may not translate to a 7 min mile on the road. Probably depends on the age, quality, and maintenance of the equipment. According to my (old, inaccurate) treadmill, and my basic calibration with my Garmin 220... a 12:00 mile on the treadmill translates to a 10:00 mile in real life Haha. |
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2015-04-24 1:32 PM in reply to: ratherbeswimming |
Seattle | Subject: RE: Treadmill-only training looks pretty legit to Lionel Sanders Originally posted by ratherbeswimming Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by Asalzwed I guess I didn't realize that there was a strong belief that treadmills weren't "legit" methods for training. I suppose you lack some specificity of running surface but if I was forced to do all my running inside for one reason or another, I wouldn't worry I was under-prepared. I would just not be very enjoyable. I think the not "legit" part refers to the speed. running a 7 min mile on a treadmill may not translate to a 7 min mile on the road. Probably depends on the age, quality, and maintenance of the equipment. According to my (old, inaccurate) treadmill, and my basic calibration with my Garmin 220... a 12:00 mile on the treadmill translates to a 10:00 mile in real life Haha. haha! Yeah, how about RPE? a 7:30 mile on the treadmill FEELS like hell |
2015-04-24 1:35 PM in reply to: dmiller5 |
Seattle | Subject: RE: Treadmill-only training looks pretty legit to Lionel Sanders Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by Asalzwed I guess I didn't realize that there was a strong belief that treadmills weren't "legit" methods for training. I suppose you lack some specificity of running surface but if I was forced to do all my running inside for one reason or another, I wouldn't worry I was under-prepared. I would just not be very enjoyable. I think the not "legit" part refers to the speed. running a 7 min mile on a treadmill may not translate to a 7 min mile on the road. Probably depends on the age, quality, and maintenance of the equipment. Ah. Sure. I guess if we get into that. But I wouldn't really use that as some sort of argument that all treadmills are inferior training devices because you use one of these: |
2015-04-24 2:25 PM in reply to: yazmaster |
Champion 11989 Philly 'burbs | Subject: RE: Treadmill-only training looks pretty legit to Lionel Sanders Originally posted by yazmaster In my opinion, this endorsement and practice from one of the top triathlon runners active today, pretty much ends the argument of whether training on a treadmill exclusively is as good as training outdoors, or whether you need to 'run regularly outdoors' in addition to the treadmill to maintain run ability. What it doesn't end is the argument that many people simply find running outdoors much more enjoyable. |
2015-04-24 2:58 PM in reply to: 0 |
1660 | Subject: RE: Treadmill-only training looks pretty legit to Lionel Sanders Originally posted by Asalzwed I guess I didn't realize that there was a strong belief that treadmills weren't "legit" methods for training. I suppose you lack some specificity of running surface but if I was forced to do all my running inside for one reason or another, I wouldn't worry I was under-prepared. I would just not be very enjoyable.
Oh, but there is definitely an widespread belief that it's 'not as good' to run only on a treadmill, meaning that you won't be as fast as you would be as you trained outside. Just search here at ST - this question comes up a lot, and there are always a big number of folks who say that you need the road impact in addition to TM training to get the full benefits. Ask on a marathon forum, and it's almost mantra for this 'you need to do a LITTLE outdoor running' to be the answer, which I think LS is proving isn't true.
As for running indoors ALL the time, I would hate that, and I'm a huge TM fan! I can't even fathom what it would be like to run 83 mpw for months, all indoors like LS does. Edited by yazmaster 2015-04-24 2:58 PM |
2015-04-24 3:09 PM in reply to: yazmaster |
Seattle | Subject: RE: Treadmill-only training looks pretty legit to Lionel Sanders Originally posted by yazmaster Originally posted by Asalzwed I guess I didn't realize that there was a strong belief that treadmills weren't "legit" methods for training. I suppose you lack some specificity of running surface but if I was forced to do all my running inside for one reason or another, I wouldn't worry I was under-prepared. I would just not be very enjoyable.
Oh, but there is definitely an widespread belief that it's 'not as good' to run only on a treadmill, meaning that you won't be as fast as you would be as you trained outside. Just search here at ST - this question comes up a lot, and there are always a big number of folks who say that you need the road impact in addition to TM training to get the full benefits. Ask on a marathon forum, and it's almost mantra for this 'you need to do a LITTLE outdoor running' to be the answer, which I think LS is proving isn't true.
As for running indoors ALL the time, I would hate that, and I'm a huge TM fan! I can't even fathom what it would be like to run 83 mpw for months, all indoors like LS does. Hmmmm. I haven't really noticed that belief. I just don't know many people that do it because it's just not that enjoyable. Also as mentioned above, it can be hard to find one that's calibrated correctly. A treadmill is an extremely controlled environment and I can absolutely see how it can be used as an excellent tool in training. But regardless, I don't think one guy's race results prove much. There are a ton of variables including the fact that he said he ran more volume than he ever has before while training for S and B. Also that he said he had some restraint is his race execution. Which leads me to believe this has not been the case in other races.
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2015-04-24 3:15 PM in reply to: ejshowers |
Seattle | Subject: RE: Treadmill-only training looks pretty legit to Lionel Sanders Originally posted by ejshowers My thinking is life is too short to run on a treadmill unless one has too. Here was my run last night: Awesome! |
2015-04-24 3:22 PM in reply to: Asalzwed |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Treadmill-only training looks pretty legit to Lionel Sanders When one of my twins was about 3 she got on our treadmill and her sister pushed the speed button higher and higher.....she got thrown off the back of it and pinned between the belt and the wall while the belt took some skin off her legs. She thinks Sanders is full of it. |
2015-04-24 3:36 PM in reply to: yazmaster |
928 | Subject: RE: Treadmill-only training looks pretty legit to Lionel Sanders Nice post. "I am a big believer that the treadmill is just as good as running outside, if not better. It is the CompuTrainer of running in a sense. I am always bothered when I encounter haters of the treadmill. The classic argument is that “the treadmill does the work for you, you just have to turn your legs.” I have logged over 5000km in the last year and a half on the treadmill, and I have never experienced the treadmill “doing the work for me.” I've also heard people say things like "It's easier to go fast on the treadmill because you just turn up the speed and take little steps to keep up." People that say these sort of things have obviously never run for more than a few minutes on the treadmill or compared their effort to similar speeds outside. The issue isn't whether YOU personally enjoy the treadmill or would rather not use it, but only whether treadmill running is as good as outdoor running for training. It clearly is, although many people will try to argue the opposite. I know many "age-group" marathoners who have done most or all of their training on the treadmill at various times. A treadmill can be a great option if the weather prevents you from running outside, or if family needs would otherwise prevent you from training in outside. |
2015-04-24 3:56 PM in reply to: Asalzwed |
New user 1351 Austin, Texas | Subject: RE: Treadmill-only training looks pretty legit to Lionel Sanders Originally posted by Asalzwed I just don't know many people that do it because it's just not that enjoyable.
I don't know, these 2 pioneers seem to be having a good time (wooden-treadmills.jpg) Attachments ---------------- wooden-treadmills.jpg (141KB - 5 downloads) |
2015-04-24 4:04 PM in reply to: 0 |
1660 | Subject: RE: Treadmill-only training looks pretty legit to Lionel Sanders I absolutely think THIS guy's (Lionel Sanders) results speak a lot for the reality of TM training being legit. Remember, he's not just some average guy running on a TM - he is one of, if not, the fastest run triathlete out their right now. If TMs had any sort of significant limitation, it would almost certainly be exposed by this guy's all-indoor regimen. It's not often than you get this combo of a world-class athlete at the top of his game using a very unusual (all-indoor running) training regimen, so when it works, it's worth looking at and re-evaluating the alleged limitations of TM training, even if it's not something you'd adapt yourself. Edited by yazmaster 2015-04-24 4:04 PM |
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2015-04-24 4:06 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
1660 | Subject: RE: Treadmill-only training looks pretty legit to Lionel Sanders Originally posted by Left Brain When one of my twins was about 3 she got on our treadmill and her sister pushed the speed button higher and higher.....she got thrown off the back of it and pinned between the belt and the wall while the belt took some skin off her legs. She thinks Sanders is full of it.
Hey be careful about kids and toddlers around TM for real. It's no joke. Mike Tysons's 4 year old daughter died from an accident involving a treadmill, for real. |
2015-04-24 4:08 PM in reply to: mrbbrad |
360 Ottawa, Ontario | Subject: RE: Treadmill-only training looks pretty legit to Lionel Sanders The thing about treadmills though is you can watch a movie. If you have nice scenery on your run route great, but when your run options are the same old city streets or the local track, maybe the treadmill isn't quite so unattractive. |
2015-04-24 4:27 PM in reply to: SenatorClayDavis |
Pro 6191 | Subject: RE: Treadmill-only training looks pretty legit to Lionel Sanders Originally posted by SenatorClayDavis The thing about treadmills though is you can watch a movie. If you have nice scenery on your run route great, but when your run options are the same old city streets or the local track, maybe the treadmill isn't quite so unattractive. I've had those days when I'd rather catch an episode of West Wing on Netflix that stare at that freaking bike path for another 6 miles. They are rare, but they happen. |
2015-04-24 4:28 PM in reply to: yazmaster |
Seattle | Subject: RE: Treadmill-only training looks pretty legit to Lionel Sanders Originally posted by yazmaster I absolutely think THIS guy's (Lionel Sanders) results speak a lot for the reality of TM training being legit. Remember, he's not just some average guy running on a TM - he is one of, if not, the fastest run triathlete out their right now. If TMs had any sort of significant limitation, it would almost certainly be exposed by this guy's all-indoor regimen. It's not often than you get this combo of a world-class athlete at the top of his game using a very unusual (all-indoor running) training regimen, so when it works, it's worth looking at and re-evaluating the alleged limitations of TM training, even if it's not something you'd adapt yourself. I have just never heard of these accusations that TM training isn't a perfectly viable option. I'm not disagreeing. However, if I were to disagree, I wouldn't look at some dudes blog post who ran well and be convinced. As I mentioned, there are many variables.
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