Where did all the BTers go? (Page 7)

Will it really "cram" TT?  There are only a few active threads at a time there, not even a full page.

in my state forum of Maryland, there is almost zero activity, and this is a big Tri state.

They probably have you blocked because they hate you.

As I recall, the 'Peloton' forum was originally a temporary forum open during the duration of the TdF.  .  At some point it became permanent.

Mark

I think segregating the cyclists and runners sends the message that if you aren't a triathlete, you aren't really welcome here. 

Separate is not equal!

There have been separate Iron training forums here for a long time, in part for the reasons that Mike brought up and also to deal with specific issues related to long course training.

That doesn't stop folks from posting IM stuff in TT, which does make me wonder if a separate forum is really needed.  

Mark

The separate Peloton forum was just to make the TdF posts easier to find and to avoid clogging up TT.  

Most triathletes have a least a passing interest in cycling, and it only makes sense that would include interest in the TdF.  I seriously doubt that any hard-core roadies would come here just for the cycling discussions; there are plenty of other dedicated sites for that.  It's not that you're not welcome if you're not a triathlete, it's that all the subject matter might not be to your interest.  It is a Triathlon site after all.

Mark

Exactly!  When both TT and IM were higher volume, it made more sense.

I will work on starting consolidating some of the more obvious subforums and see how that get's TT going more.  I will also look into that 'last unread post' issue.  Regarding the mentor forums, I do think that getting rid of them would cause those people to leave.  If anything, just sorting that forum down a little more in the main forums may help.

With another election coming up, dare I combine COJ and the Political one?

I am very sorry regarding the last few years since the redesign and some forum stuff leading up to it.  Yes, there was a lot of divisiveness, and a lot of issues that came out of that.  I should have been more active in personally dealing with those issues that arose.  The new site ended up being a nightmare leading up to it...I honestly thought that I did the research, followed the survey polls that I put out, brought you in with input on the screenshots to come up with something that seemed to indicate everyone would want.  But in the end it was just too big of a change...and a ton of money.  Restoring Garmin functionality was our nemesis...only to have to spend a lot of money to re-integrate with the new Garmin Connect a year later.  Then with the growing mobile shift and trying to program for that...I will be honest, the last few years I have been under a lot of pressure to keep up with 4 sites (desktop, mobile, Apple, Android). along with the features you want.  In retrospect, I should have not come out with a new site but focused all energy on mobile.  So a lot of this distracted me from really paying personal attention to many users forum issues.  And there has been a offloading to FB...which is a something I can't control and just a ton more logging sites elsewhere which gives people choice and takes people away from BT unlike our formative years where it was just us and TP.

It's a different environment now as opposed to then.  I'm trying to focus more on mobile and just tweaking the desktop site (don't worry, just little changes from here out for awhile...no big changes again).  At this point, it's harder to come out with new features at a fast pace just due to maintaining and integrating with 4 sites now...just the nature of software.  I loved the days when it was just Internet explorer and no apps, I could churn out stuff quick!    

Anyways, aside from spam, I've been looser on the reigns in the forums for the past year and will continue to do so.  If issues arise, I will personally do all that I can to work with you so we can resolve it without it escalating.

I made several wrong decisions (strategic initiatives, not taking mobile seriously (I hate my phone!) and not being personally involved in large forum issues) that started several years back...and I take full responsibility.  I'm working on correcting them...it's going to be slow, but I hope I can at least be steady.

Good luck, Ron.  Don't second guess yourself too much.  It could have been even worse if you had done things differently.   Other factors beyond your control had way more influence on the trend.   

Since I chimed in with some things I thought were problems, I will add to the parring down the forums question with my thoughts.

1. TT obviously stays the way it is.

2. Introduce yourself: Rather than being it's own subforum it could be made a sticky in TT. I can't remember it ever getting much traffic and it is not inspiring to post in a subforum that only gets 2-3 responses for every thread. Used to be Yanti was the only consistent poster in that forum. 

3. I think states can stay. They don't get much traffic but when locals want to discuss small races it is a good place to do it. I am not going to post about a sprint tri in a town of 20k people in Idaho in TT, better in the state forum. 

4. Mentor groups need to go IMO. The people who made CoJ and TT interesting and contributed are now stuck in mentor groups and don't leave. Heck I just checked on one and they are discussing this thread in the group rather than providing input here. Mentor groups killed CoJ IMO and they don't help to get discussion going in TT either. If you want to post about your dog being sick do it in CoJ, it would be a welcomed thread.

5. Race reports should stay.

6. Gear Reviews could be put into the Classifieds as a sticky or done away with all together. I am more likely to go to Google for reviews on gear than to search here first. Might even encourage people to post random reviews in TT and CoJ which is fine and drives traffic IMO. 

7. Classifieds stays.

8. Weight loss forum is fine IMO. I have never visited it much but I don't think it drags much away from TT. 

9. Consolidate IM Training and Race Groups into one forum or just start "Official Such and Such IM Race" threads in TT. Works fine at ST.

10. Clyde and Athena is unnecessary IMO. 

11. Injuries and Health should go away, people can post that in TT.

12. Challenge is fine, but could go away as people would then post challenges in TT and get more participants and traffic. 

13. Nutritional Cafe goes away.

14. Peloton can go away. Could be replaced with "Official Road Bikers" thread in TT. 

15. Ultras can go away. People who are going to run those sort of distances are going to post in a runners forum about it. 

16. CoJ and PCoJ can stay separate IMO. After the mentor groups are closed people are going to want a safe place to post pictures of their cat and complain about their significant others, etc. Leave that in CoJ and let the hardcore arguers who actually care about the election in 2016 hash it out in PCoJ with less moderating. 

There is my idea for BT. Sorry, but I really think mentor groups are a problem. Instead of engaging in the community that is BT people go back to their small groups and discuss what is being discussed in the main forums. Lame IMO, come on out and join in. Get TAN going again for absolute trivial BS, everything else can go in CoJ, post away!

State Forums - This might be great if you live in the middle of a large state or if you only ever do events in your hometown area but they kinda suck if you cross state lines for events.

Mentor groups - I don't see that traffic moving to TT.  I see it moving off site altogether.  Not a win-win at all.

IM and IM Race Groups - I'm all for combining these!

10-16 - totally agree

Just running through the last two pages of your mentor group I saw 4-5 people who used to be CoJ regulars and posted all sorts of random daily life stuff. 

I don't think I agree with that....... the overall site would be better off in the long run whether those people stayed or left.....so I do see it as a win for the site, although perhaps a loss for the people who hide out there.  Let's face it......most people in those groups aren't contributing much to the overall site so it's not going to matter if they leave or not (I'll stop just short of 'who cares' on that one because there are some knowledgeable people in some of those groups)......and new people won't have the groups to join.  There's a win for the site there.

I doubt the mentor groups were ever meant to be a place for experienced people to hang out so they didn't have to be a part of the overall board.

Ron,

I noticed a comment from you that had me wondering.  You stated you are busy trying to keep 4 sites afloat.  Web, mobile, iphone app, droid app.

What is the demand for those?  In MY experience, the other applications were so limited, they really didn't serve me well enough that just waiting to get to my desktop wasn't my typical option.  On occasion I would check my workout for the day and maybe even log one, but I would have to go to the desktop anyway to add more detail or load Garmin.  I would even chose full site version when looking on my Ipad anyway.

I honestly thought you created the apps just because that's the thing to do at the time...  "There's an app for that".

If you lost those, would you be upsetting a lot of users?  Would it save you time and headache if they didn't exist or you didn't support them anymore?

Totally agree. The app interface is frustrating and doesn't make sense. I ALWAYS use the "full site" option on my phone and iPad. 
Ron, do you have user metrics/statistics for how many people are actually using the apps? That would be interesting, and perhaps telling for the demand and where you could better put your resources. 

I thought the mentor groups were to provide a place for a small group of people to ask questions of an experience member and get a little group support/encouragement.  Not to form cliques or form a group of lemmings.

YES, you can ask the same questions in TT and get the same support in Race Reports.  I get that.

BUT, how many times have you seen responses to beginner questions in TT like "Use the search function" - "how many time are people going to ask the same questions" - or links to 20 other threads that asked the same question.  OR, have a thread hijacked by opposing opinions to turn in to an argument with so many answers that the OP gets no real answer in the end.

For example, if I went to my doctor I trusted and asked for a treatment for my cancer, I would want an answer and maybe get a second opinion to confirm then go from there.  Maybe have a small group for support.  What good does it do for me to post a question for treatment online then get a dozen different suggestions THEN have doctors go off on their tangent arguing about which is best?  Or have someone say "man,  how many times are people going to ask about cancer treatments - use the search feature".  I don't get an answer, I get an argument, then have to chose one side, but I'm a beginner, so I have to just guess which side to chose and hope for the best?  Why not just try triathlon by trial and error (nothing wrong with that, BTW - I do that a lot).

I think the intent was a good one.  Make beginners feel just a little more comfortable getting into this sport.  BUT, I agree, it did get a bit cliquish.  I guess I never understood why a mentor group would have 12 people that have been on BT for years and racing for years in it.  Then it's just a club of friends.  I thought the intent was ONE mentor (maybe an "assistant" for a second opinion) then 8-10 new people.  Maybe crack down on who is IN a mentor group?  If 12 people that have been racing for years just want to chat, start a thread or FB page? 

Exactly

The reason for the discussion in the mentor group is because I wanted more participation in this thread from folks that are knowledgable and have been on the site for a while, like Janyne.  So I mentioned it in there. Like most things, it grew from there.  And most of that disusiion will get to the people that need to see it, I'm sure.  I'm also fairly certain that while the mentor groups were started with a certain direction in mind they evolved, as is often the case.  

I've posted enough stuff in TT and watched as others have done the same to know that the advice I'd be giving lines up with a bunch of other people's advice.  So my input may be a simple "X2".  I see where that can be helpful to someone that is new, just knowing that the opinion is shared by more than one person.  However, by my fifteenth post about bike comfort, it becomes a bit much to say that a fitting is a good idea, when 5 others will say the same thing.

I looked down the list of forums and understand to some extent every single one of them - more so if there was so much traffic, that we needed to break it up.  Some that jump to mind (even if I visited them on occasion) trying for weight loss even thought we have a nutrition thread.  The peloton and ultra running forums.  This IS technically a triathlon forum.  I know biking and running are part of that, but if people want to specifically talk about ULTRA or bike racing?  Different web site or just a catch all forum?

Clyde/Athena?  I know it's a subset, but again, we are all just racers in the end. 

Wouldn't nutrition/injury/weight loss be part of TT or maybe combine the three?

It may not make a different.  I'm not sure by simply combining forums you will have a solution to what I think the problem is/was.

I think each forum had it's reason for starting.  It was probably a very GOOD reason at the time - but there's never any harm in re-evaluating or housecleaning.

I could see the value in that. Seems closer to the original intent than what it has become as well. 

But at the end of the day, posting and reading forums is all about seeing different opinions and making a determination from there for yourself. Your cancer treatment analogy doesn't really work as you kind of need to be an expert to treat cancer. Anyone with a bike and two feet can finish a triathlon. If I ask a question on a forum it is to gather different opinions and ideas and then determine what will work for me from there. Nothing wrong with differing views in triathlon, there are many different ways to get to the finish line. 

And in my recollection the community is pretty good about dismissing the "use the search" or "stop asking" posts. Ron has said enough times for everyone to know that sort of thing is frowned on here. 

Ron,

Thanks you for addressing these items.  I really respect you for recognizing these flaw.  There is a reason why those of us posting here do so.  It is because we want the best for BT, just like you.  

Thank you again.

Here is a different symptom of the problems here.  It is not all due to the number of forums (fora?) and FB.  Taking my own advice to come up with an interesting topic and post it, I saw something about wheels using graphene.  I looked up some references, wrote a short post, and put it up.  So far 94 views, 0 responses.  One problem might be that I don't post often and there were some links in the post so people may have thought it was click bait or trolling.  In the halcyon heady days of early BT, we usually responded to everything, even a thread opened by mistake whose contents were deleted by the author got a few thousand responses.  One of those threads was, in fact, the ancestor of TAN which continues on to this day. 

I think the root problem is that good content is hard and people are more reluctant (for reasons I might guess but prefer not to state) to invest their own time in producing it.  If you produce something that gets ignored, you won't produce content much anymore.

I read with interest that the infamous Ashley Madison site created an army of computer bots (fembots) to engage and converse with participants on the site.  Maybe Ron needs to set up some tribots to respond to threads. I am, of course, joking.

I found the lack of response indicative of a problem that we have not addressed in this discussion.  It is harder to get a discussion going than it used to be.  This is nota result of the site mechanics.  The forum format is for all intents and purposes the same as the original forum.  The response rate is not as high as it was. I don't know why.

TW 

I wouldn't let that get to you too much. That seems to be the norm on many forums. Much more views than responses. Here is a sampling of the CoJ at ST today.

Anyone following Mike Huckabee's arguments on the Kim Davis case?	BarryP	364	31	Sep 9, 15 14:37 (jmcconne)
PSA	tigerchik	769	34	Sep 9, 15 14:35 (rick_pcfl)
Men's watches	SkipG	659	40	Sep 9, 15 14:30 (cerveloguy)
Anyone deal with the Illinois Tollway?	MJuric	9	0	Sep 9, 15 14:28
Apple Announcement	BLeP	451	20	Sep 9, 15 14:25 (Danno)
High School Coaching - Liability question	307trout	69	2	Sep 9, 15 14:20 (307trout)
iPhone dorks 5/5c/5s	tigerpaws	186	6	Sep 9, 15 13:50 (BigMikeGA)
Kim Davis heading to jail	jkca1	4675	183	Sep 9, 15 13:45 (JSA)
Epic satire, or...	edwinj	1268	42	Sep 9, 15 13:27 (MJuric)
IPA & Double IPA	sphere	48701	569	Sep 9, 15 13:14 (RandMart)
Official LR Word Association Game ...	CaptainCanada	282589	6207	Sep 9, 15 12:58 (RandMart)
F this BS ST!	xsive	539	11	Sep 9, 15 12:46 (H-)
Well this is interesting...	ThisIsIt	3402	227	Sep 9, 15 12:28 (Danno)
Slowtwitch Fantasy Football	TylerJ	891	61	Sep 9, 15 12:09 (Mike C)
High School texas Football - attack on ref WTF	DavHamm	3252	113

First set of numbers are the views, second set is posts. As you can see the views greatly outpace the posts. Pretty much the same story on other forums I am involved in. That is why high traffic is important. If it takes an average of 65 views for each response there need to be a heck of a lot of views!

I can only speak for myself but I do exactly this because yeah, they are a group of friends. A group of friends with a common interest that have different experiences to draw from when I ask for advice. The biggest difference between the mentor group and TT would be that they know my athletic history and I know theirs. And in my opinion, that is one of the very most important pieces to continuing to progress in the sport. 

Also, when I post something in TT, whether it be a reply or a new thread, it often falls flat. I don't have that experience is the mentor forum. Maybe because they are my friends and they have to reply

This may be too anecdotal, but I feel as though the mentor groups, and maybe even ours specifically, is being called out.