interesting video on aetheism (Page 2)

Hummm... So, I'm not talking about God in way shape or form. Spirituality. The human spirit, the natural spirit. what is it?  Regardless where morality came from... in all cultures and races, it is a "belief". A belief in something bigger. again, not talking about God. What that stems from is the very nature of our species. We are social animals, and we want community and society. Every single moral ideal, is nothing more than how we all get along together. Compassion, trust, faith, hope, empathy, forgiveness, honesty, selflessness, love, sacrifice... all spiritual principles. Self less principles. Principles that benefit society. 

Selfishness... that's easy. Principles that benefit self. Greed, lust, stealing, violence, anger, hate, deceit, betrayal ... I don't care where you get yours from, or where Tony get his. But we can all act by a code that takes into account those around us, instead of acting in pure self centeredness.

So when you tell me don't confuse niceness with morality... all I can say is... "What chu takin' bout Willis". What exactly do you think morality is?

What I think you are trying to do is to confuse truth as being moral. Actually, truth is moral. Honesty is morality. But you go off the rails when you do it out of selfishness. Putting down others so you can feel better . You may be factually correct, but your delivery isn't to elevate others understanding. It is to ridicule their understanding. Two different things. That is how it came across to me. I could be wrong.

And again, I'm not talking about God or religion in any way. I'm talking about morality and how we treat each other. The argument of... well they do it too, and  I have already showed you the error in their thinking , so I can do it too... doesn't hold water.

I could ask two different atheists what morality is and get 15 answers, but that doesn't mean anything. The thing about Christianity is that it has the Bible as the moral standard and it is the standard to which all are to be judged. Sure, there are "Christians" that don't read or understand the bible who may give this or that answer, but it doesn't matter because according to the faith the Bible is the moral compass for Christians no matter what you wish to believe.

You mention that you feel morality is relative but I have to ask who or what is it relative to? From what I gather you feel that your morality is relative to you and what you feel is moral in todays day and age. What you appear to believe is called moral relativism which is is the view that ethical standards, morality, and positions of right or wrong are culturally based and therefore subject to a person's individual choice. We can all decide what is right for ourselves.
A big problem with moral relativism is that it changes. Today you can feel that what you feel, but if tomorrow you're homeless on the street and starving your reality has changed so therefore your morality must change. You can now steal from others because relative to your position it's moral.

So slavery was moral at the time?  We hadn't culturally progressed past it at the time, so according to your definition it was moral.  Same thing about treatment of homosexuals, we hadn't progressed our morality until recently, so it was immoral 30 years ago but moral now?  Or was it never immoral and we didn't progress our morality?  It's either one or the other.

So you're morality is based on Christian principles?  Christian morality is based on the golden rule which is to treat others as you want to be treated and do unto others as you wish them to do to you.

I don't think amoral means what you think it means.  amoral is somebody who is neither moral or immoral, they lack the ability to judge anyone.  A newborn baby is amoral.

Assuming you meant to say immoral, I'm curious why you feel that so strongly about somebody who doesn't exist.  I mean, if he doesn't exist how can he be immoral?  What I think you're saying is that you believe God does exist and that he is immoral because you have to exist in order to be immoral.

This is a big breakthrough, I also believe God exists.  

You might find this hard to believe but I honestly feel sorry for people who are what I call "angry atheists" because I used to be one.  I can really relate to dmiller because spiritually I was exactly the same for a big part of my life.  I was very angry at Christians and always looking to pick a fight, but when I was 33 I had a life changing experience that I won't get into again here.

The only true analytical/scientific position about religion is to be an agnostic.  Theists believe that we got started by an intentional act by a supreme being of some sort.  atheists believe that we started from nothing for no reason.  Both are beliefs and neither can be proved.  The agnostic doesn't rule out that there could be a creator or that we could have materialized out of thin air for no reason.

If it's not nice then why are you trying to force your beliefs on others.

I don't think it's terrible to say God is made up, and I hope you're not feeling that I'm lambasting you.  I have no problem at all with anyone being an atheist, agnostic, or theist.  I just encourage people to explore every area thoroughly and respect others decisions when they differ from your own.

Except that when it comes to politicians, people view athiesm more negatively than they do pot smoking and adultery (pew research). So unless all those believers in a god are also toking up and cheating on their wives...

I can honestly say that at no point during the Ironmans I've completed did I ever seek out or find religion. 

I'm glad to see you're getting into the Bible, but you'll find you're falling into the trap of reading things out of context.

The Bible is both a historical boo and a spiritual book.  It records the Jewish peoples beginnings, captivity as slaves in Egypt, as well as their exodus into the promise land.  In the old testament there are many stories of rape, incest, murder, slavery, you name it but they're descriptions of events that occurred at that time in the world.

The Leviticus quote looks all scandalous, but it's describing the common practice of indenture servitude that was extremely common in that era.  Foreigners would send their children to other places to be indentured servants which meant they received food and shelter and they worked for it.  It's hard for any of us today to understand this kind of stuff, but 3000 years ago it was a career choice and done by everyone.  You certainly can't take the context of modern day slavery and compare the two.

The Ephesians quote is completely out of context.  Jesus is telling slaves to submit to their earthly masters and work for them as if they were working for God.  He wasn't even talking about their circumstance, he was telling them that their earthly circumstance doesn't matter.  This verse is relative today for people who are in a crappy job, or have a horrible boss.  I obey my earthly masters ( our government, the IRS, etc) even though I don't agree with them because I don't work for them, I work for God.

Just had another though...  The way you described your belief in morality and how it's evolved over time.  Shouldn't all these things you're complaining about in the Bible be moral, because at the time they were moral to society?  ;-)

Won't work....trust me.  I tried to convince my wife she was my slave......I got really hungry.

too many things to reply to, i'm going to consolidate.

I was raised jewish, so i know far more about that then about christianity. i studied a fair amount of religion in college, so i can probably say nasty things about all the major ones.  those bible quotes i googled....and your interpretation doesn't interest me.  It is my impression that the religious say god holds an absolute moral standard, for this to be true the moral cannot change over time. 

What is considered good and moral by a society does change over time, and in my view therefor cannot be from god.

being mean, being nice, and being moral are totally different.  and to call me immoral (thanks for the correction tuwood) because i'm not telling everyone that whatever they believe is right, is just stupid.  I didn't expect the PC police to come from you guys...but then again its religion so everything is held to a higher standard.

I really can't give 2 effs what you believe, or what you do in your home. thats where my morale responsibility begins and ends on this matter.  If theres someone else that is oppressing you, i should stop them.  Otherwise, it isn't my moral responsibility to tell you that your god is right and great and whatever.  I'm also really tired of christmas music for like 3 months a year, that should definitely be a crime :P

some of my morality comes from yoga....I know, you'll probably start screaming religion or something.  But I think my big qualm isn't  so much the religion, its the idea that one supreme being cares what we do when we're naked....  The fact that we keep reinterpreting the books and come up with new moral standards tells me that the morality is coming from us, and the book is probably in fact holding us back.

and for a little backstory, i remember yours tuwood, and i know religion has been great for you.       i was sorta raised jewish, did the barmitzvah thing, in college got involved with an orthodox religious group, tried it out, and then came to the conclusion that there is no god, therefore all of these god based religions are fubar.

Even as a Christian I can absolutely agree that we need to ban christmas music!!!  haha

I think it really boils down to morality being a a tricky thing to nail down.  For example we could all probably agree that some things like murder and rape are morally wrong and always have been.  In that context morality is a constant.  However, in other ways our perception of morality seems to change over time on other less cut and dry things.  So when our perception of morality changes, was it always moral but we're just now realizing it, or did it actually change from being immoral in the past to being moral today?

I personally feel the morality discussion is very fascinating.  It's a fun topic with amazing writings on both sides of the discussion.
This article is several years old, but I've read it a few times over the years.  It's from an atheist and touches on some of the challenges with morality from an atheist perspective.

http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=8859

God hates me.

nah, he still loves you.  

and have three bloody mary's... oh wait, did I say that wrong...  

That was my interpretation as well.  Grew up Jewish, but came to believe there was no God.

On a side note in church a few months ago our pastor used the term Christian Atheist to describe somebody who believes in God (Christ), but lives their life as though he doesn't exist.  #ouch