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Offseason Marathon a Good Idea or Not?
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 2015-11-24 12:51 PM |
 1502   Katy, Texas |  Subject: Offseason Marathon a Good Idea or Not?Now that I have moved and am running in weather in the 40's and 50's I have honestly found my love for running again. The past 4 years living in the Keys made running miserable and nothing more than a chore. Especially for longer runs. The past couple of weeks running in cooler weather has been incredibly enjoyable. Rather than dreading long runs, I look forward to them and enjoy every minute of it. In addition to clocking some really fast times at the same HR level. What would have been an 8:15-8:30 pace at ~135-140 BPM is now easily 7:30-7:45 feeling great afterward. So now I have the itch to do a marathon. One of my hold ups is that I really need to work on biking and told myself that is how I would try to devout a lot of my off season. How much training does it take to do a legitamite marathon. I'd like to be in the 3:10-3:20 range. I don't want to sacrifice my biking though. Is it possible to do both? How much do I have to focus on running? Edit: I am thinking of doing the Austin Marathon in February. I'm currently running around 20 miles/week which includes a 10ish mile long run. Edited by 3mar 2015-11-24 12:52 PM |
| 2015-11-24 12:53 PM in reply to: 3mar |
Not a Coach 11473   Media, PA | Subject: RE: Offseason Marathon a Good Idea or Not? It's simple. If your main off season goal is to work on your biking, do not run a marathon. |
| 2015-11-24 1:27 PM in reply to: JohnnyKay |
Pro 6520 Bellingham, WA | Subject: RE: Offseason Marathon a Good Idea or Not? You would need to at least double your current weekly mileage and progressively move that long run up. Whether or not that interferes with your bike focus depends on how much time you have and whether you are willing to compromise a bit on what you get out of the upcoming training block. It is tough to ramp up both running and biking and expect to maximize gains in both. If you are greatly enjoying running with the nice cool temps maybe scale back on the bike build until after the marathon and then transition the bike back in. The marathon build could serve as a nice base going into the Spring. I have tried to do both and the bike sessions did interfere with my run progress. |
| 2015-11-24 2:03 PM in reply to: popsracer |
Elite 3683 Whispering Pines, North Carolina | Subject: RE: Offseason Marathon a Good Idea or Not? Originally posted by popsracer You would need to at least double your current weekly mileage and progressively move that long run up. Whether or not that interferes with your bike focus depends on how much time you have and whether you are willing to compromise a bit on what you get out of the upcoming training block. It is tough to ramp up both running and biking and expect to maximize gains in both. If you are greatly enjoying running with the nice cool temps maybe scale back on the bike build until after the marathon and then transition the bike back in. The marathon build could serve as a nice base going into the Spring. I have tried to do both and the bike sessions did interfere with my run progress. Agree with the two posters above. If you want to train well for a marathon, the bike and swim will suffer. I use the offseason to train for early season marathons. I like to race in Feb or first few weeks of March. 5 or 6 weeks before my marathon, I mostly drop swimming and cycling just b/c it's too much. That being said, the week after a marathon, I start to swim easy and increase volume. Two weeks after the marathon, I start to cycle easy and start to build cycling volume. By the time a race comes around in late April or early May, I have decent swim and bike fitness, but not "focus on the bike all winter" kind of fitness. Run fitness is usually very good and I can maintain it, for the rest of the year, with minimal running. As pops stated, your run volume should be much higher by now. Are you following a plan? I'm 15 weeks out of my marathon and I'm in the 50mpw range, with a long run (on the sched) of 15. Maybe you should take a look at Higdon, Daniels, or Pfitz plans to get an idea of much you should be running. Good luck! I agree that this time of year is fab for running. |
| 2015-11-24 2:06 PM in reply to: 3mar |
| Subject: RE: Offseason Marathon a Good Idea or Not? Why not target a 10k race instead? You can still have a pretty good race on 20-25 mpw and focus on your bike fitness at the same time.
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| 2015-11-24 3:01 PM in reply to: 0 |
Member 285 Cypress, Texas | Subject: RE: Offseason Marathon a Good Idea or Not? Originally posted by 3mar Now that I have moved and am running in weather in the 40's and 50's I have honestly found my love for running again. The past 4 years living in the Keys made running miserable and nothing more than a chore. Especially for longer runs. The past couple of weeks running in cooler weather has been incredibly enjoyable. Rather than dreading long runs, I look forward to them and enjoy every minute of it. In addition to clocking some really fast times at the same HR level. What would have been an 8:15-8:30 pace at ~135-140 BPM is now easily 7:30-7:45 feeling great afterward. So now I have the itch to do a marathon. One of my hold ups is that I really need to work on biking and told myself that is how I would try to devout a lot of my off season. How much training does it take to do a legitamite marathon. I'd like to be in the 3:10-3:20 range. I don't want to sacrifice my biking though. Is it possible to do both? How much do I have to focus on running? Edit: I am thinking of doing the Austin Marathon in February. I'm currently running around 20 miles/week which includes a 10ish mile long run. If I remember right I saw somewhere that you moved to the Houston area. If that's correct don't get used to the 40's and 50's too much. That can change in a heartbeat around here. Looks like we are getting high 70's already again on Thanksgiving. I have to agree with everyone else that if you wanted to work on your bike then don't do the marathon. Do a 10k like Jason has suggested or even a half marathon. There should be lots of options for 10k's and Katy's half marathon for example is in February: https://www.athletepath.com/katy-half-marathon/2016-02-06 Markus Edited by johnthecat 2015-11-24 3:01 PM |
| 2015-11-24 3:12 PM in reply to: 3mar |
| 1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: Offseason Marathon a Good Idea or Not? Thanks everyone for your responses. It certainly gives me something to think about. I hadn't looked at any marathon training plans. The marathon for me is a bit of a chip on my shoulder as I have only done one (outside of the IM) and it was when I was just begining to run. So I don't feel that PR is anywhere near my current level of fitness. The other big change is that I am now in an office job, where I used to work from my home. So although my plan was a bike focus, it is becoming clear that I have a lot of opportunities for running (the office building I work in has a nice gym with a shower so I can run outside or on the treadmill at lunch, before work, or even both) than for biking. I've been stuck on the trainer during the week and over the past week my bike has been in the shop waiting for a part so I am stuck doing spin classes (which are awesome by the way, I push way harder than I would on my own). So that's another reason I wanted to reevaluate. I sort of assumed a triathlete training for a marathon would do an altered version of a standard marathon training plan taking into account the cross training of swimming and biking. Is that not the case? |
| 2015-11-24 3:13 PM in reply to: johnthecat |
| 1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: Offseason Marathon a Good Idea or Not? Originally posted by johnthecat Originally posted by 3mar Now that I have moved and am running in weather in the 40's and 50's I have honestly found my love for running again. The past 4 years living in the Keys made running miserable and nothing more than a chore. Especially for longer runs. The past couple of weeks running in cooler weather has been incredibly enjoyable. Rather than dreading long runs, I look forward to them and enjoy every minute of it. In addition to clocking some really fast times at the same HR level. What would have been an 8:15-8:30 pace at ~135-140 BPM is now easily 7:30-7:45 feeling great afterward. So now I have the itch to do a marathon. One of my hold ups is that I really need to work on biking and told myself that is how I would try to devout a lot of my off season. How much training does it take to do a legitamite marathon. I'd like to be in the 3:10-3:20 range. I don't want to sacrifice my biking though. Is it possible to do both? How much do I have to focus on running? Edit: I am thinking of doing the Austin Marathon in February. I'm currently running around 20 miles/week which includes a 10ish mile long run. If I remember right I saw somewhere that you moved to the Houston area. If that's correct don't get used to the 40's and 50's too much. That can change in a heartbeat around here. Looks like we are getting high 70's already again on Thanksgiving. I have to agree with everyone else that if you wanted to work on your bike then don't do the marathon. Do a 10k like Jason has suggested or even a half marathon. There should be lots of options for 10k's and Katy's half marathon for example is in February: https://www.athletepath.com/katy-half-marathon/2016-02-06 Markus I am living in Katy actually. I didn't know about this race. If I don't do it, my wife certainly will be interested in it. |
| 2015-11-24 3:21 PM in reply to: 3mar |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: Offseason Marathon a Good Idea or Not? Originally posted by 3mar I sort of assumed a triathlete training for a marathon would do an altered version of a standard marathon training plan taking into account the cross training of swimming and biking. Is that not the case? It all depends. If they want to do really well at the marathon, no. Being on the trainer a lot should be GOOD for your biking. Do them more like the efforts you are doing in spin class. |
| 2015-11-24 4:31 PM in reply to: Jason N |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: Offseason Marathon a Good Idea or Not? Originally posted by Jason N Why not target a 10k race instead? You can still have a pretty good race on 20-25 mpw and focus on your bike fitness at the same time. Think targeting a 10k would be better even if one decides to do a run focus. The volume could still be increased but would be distributed better. |
| 2015-11-24 4:56 PM in reply to: 3mar |
| Subject: RE: Offseason Marathon a Good Idea or Not? Originally posted by 3mar The marathon for me is a bit of a chip on my shoulder as I have only done one (outside of the IM) and it was when I was just begining to run. So I don't feel that PR is anywhere near my current level of fitness. How big is that marathon chip on your shoulder as compared to the triathlon one? |
| 2015-11-24 6:31 PM in reply to: Jason N |
| 1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: Offseason Marathon a Good Idea or Not? Originally posted by Jason N Originally posted by 3mar The marathon for me is a bit of a chip on my shoulder as I have only done one (outside of the IM) and it was when I was just begining to run. So I don't feel that PR is anywhere near my current level of fitness. How big is that marathon chip on your shoulder as compared to the triathlon one? Hmmmm....good point. |
| 2015-11-24 6:36 PM in reply to: 3mar |
| 98 Portland, Oregon | Subject: RE: Offseason Marathon a Good Idea or Not? If you have a chance, Google "Jimmy Brehm marathon plan" and read the Runner's World article (Sorry, I couldn't figure out how to link to it.). He developed a 3-day-a-week marathon plan that emphasizes cross-training and quality running miles, and had a lot of experienced runners PR by following it. I haven't done a marathon, but I've had really good success using his half-marathon version, while (sort of) keeping up on my biking and swimming. Every winter I swear I'm going to spend more time on the bike, and running always wins. I'm finally reconciling myself to the fact that I'll continue to put up slow triathlon times, 'cause I'd rather focus on the run workouts! |
| 2015-11-24 9:07 PM in reply to: #5153563 |
| 165 | Subject: RE: Offseason Marathon a Good Idea or Not? I've done three half marathons on that 3 day a week plan (FIRST plan, in the book Run Less Run Faster, I believe). I set a PR each time with it, and was able to do a lot of cross training with it. |
| 2015-11-24 9:26 PM in reply to: linkslefty |
Veteran 1900 Southampton, Ontario | Subject: RE: Offseason Marathon a Good Idea or Not? you mentioned that the office has shower facilities? Why not commute in by bike and still have that run over lunch. |
| 2015-11-25 8:00 AM in reply to: linkslefty |
| 1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: Offseason Marathon a Good Idea or Not? Originally posted by Jason N Originally posted by 3mar The marathon for me is a bit of a chip on my shoulder as I have only done one (outside of the IM) and it was when I was just begining to run. So I don't feel that PR is anywhere near my current level of fitness. How big is that marathon chip on your shoulder as compared to the triathlon one? I've given this more thought and do these really have to be mutually exclusive? In order to meet my goals in triathlon, both my running and bike have to improve. My bike has to improve more, but both need to move up. Originally posted by martymo If you have a chance, Google "Jimmy Brehm marathon plan" and read the Runner's World article (Sorry, I couldn't figure out how to link to it.). He developed a 3-day-a-week marathon plan that emphasizes cross-training and quality running miles, and had a lot of experienced runners PR by following it. I haven't done a marathon, but I've had really good success using his half-marathon version, while (sort of) keeping up on my biking and swimming. Every winter I swear I'm going to spend more time on the bike, and running always wins. I'm finally reconciling myself to the fact that I'll continue to put up slow triathlon times, 'cause I'd rather focus on the run workouts! I took a look and that is almost exactly what I do now. When I can get three runs a week I do an interval workout, a long run and an easy run or tempo for the third. If I do 4 runs in a week, I'll do the tempo and the easy run. And honestly, that was almost exactly what I was planning on doing, with increasing distance on the tempo and long runs. Originally posted by DaveL you mentioned that the office has shower facilities? Why not commute in by bike and still have that run over lunch. I thought about that, but I can't find a safe route. |
| 2015-11-25 8:33 AM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Offseason Marathon a Good Idea or Not? Originally posted by 3mar Originally posted by Jason N Originally posted by 3mar The marathon for me is a bit of a chip on my shoulder as I have only done one (outside of the IM) and it was when I was just begining to run. So I don't feel that PR is anywhere near my current level of fitness. How big is that marathon chip on your shoulder as compared to the triathlon one? I've given this more thought and do these really have to be mutually exclusive? In order to meet my goals in triathlon, both my running and bike have to improve. My bike has to improve more, but both need to move up. Originally posted by martymo If you have a chance, Google "Jimmy Brehm marathon plan" and read the Runner's World article (Sorry, I couldn't figure out how to link to it.). He developed a 3-day-a-week marathon plan that emphasizes cross-training and quality running miles, and had a lot of experienced runners PR by following it. I haven't done a marathon, but I've had really good success using his half-marathon version, while (sort of) keeping up on my biking and swimming. Every winter I swear I'm going to spend more time on the bike, and running always wins. I'm finally reconciling myself to the fact that I'll continue to put up slow triathlon times, 'cause I'd rather focus on the run workouts! I took a look and that is almost exactly what I do now. When I can get three runs a week I do an interval workout, a long run and an easy run or tempo for the third. If I do 4 runs in a week, I'll do the tempo and the easy run. And honestly, that was almost exactly what I was planning on doing, with increasing distance on the tempo and long runs. Originally posted by DaveL you mentioned that the office has shower facilities? Why not commute in by bike and still have that run over lunch. I thought about that, but I can't find a safe route. for me, 2x very intense bike sessions, 1x easier 1x very hard swim sessions, 2x easier 6-7x easier run sessions. I always do the ST100/100 challenge. usually brings me to March with a reasonable FTP, probably a bit below bike endurance, but a solid run. PB on on marathon ? NO, but I could run a decent half. I then move to more quality on the runs, longer bikes (no more snow). this is more a reality of living in a Nordic country. Always monitor for not overloading yourself. This is a 2x per day regimen which is NOT for everyone. Edited by marcag 2015-11-25 8:34 AM |
| 2015-11-25 9:32 AM in reply to: 0 |
| 1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: Offseason Marathon a Good Idea or Not? Originally posted by marcag . for me, 2x very intense bike sessions, 1x easier 1x very hard swim sessions, 2x easier 6-7x easier run sessions. I always do the ST100/100 challenge. usually brings me to March with a reasonable FTP, probably a bit below bike endurance, but a solid run. PB on on marathon ? NO, but I could run a decent half. I then move to more quality on the runs, longer bikes (no more snow). this is more a reality of living in a Nordic country. Always monitor for not overloading yourself. This is a 2x per day regimen which is NOT for everyone. So this got me to thinking about actually laying this out and seeing what it looked like. I'm able to workout mornings and lunches just about every day. Saturday is a workout that my wife and I started doing together last week and she really likes it, so that makes her happy, so I have to keep it (I do the swim on my own and she meets me for the weights and spin class). Here is what I came up with. I think this is very doable and would maintain my bike and swimming while still giving a decent build up to a marathon. Thoughts? Edit: I originally had this as text, but it's easier to see as an attachment with the formatting from Word. Edited by 3mar 2015-11-25 9:35 AM (Capture.JPG) Attachments ---------------- Capture.JPG (85KB - 7 downloads) |
| 2015-11-25 9:59 AM in reply to: 3mar |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: Offseason Marathon a Good Idea or Not? That looks like trying to fit a marathon into somewhat balanced training. What do you want out of doing a marathon? Getting through one? Going after one? |
| 2015-11-25 10:06 AM in reply to: brigby1 |
| 1502 Katy, Texas | Subject: RE: Offseason Marathon a Good Idea or Not? Originally posted by brigby1 That looks like trying to fit a marathon into somewhat balanced training. What do you want out of doing a marathon? Getting through one? Going after one? A couple things. -I don't have anything on my calendar until May (Oly) and that is way too long for me. I need something to build to. -I have done one marathon (outside of IM) and that was years ago. I ran a 3:50. Looking over my PRs this one just doesn't fit with the rest and I want to see where my marathon time would be (I'm thinking 3:10-3:20). That sounds weird, I know, but whatever motivates, right? -I'd like to see how close I'd come to qualifying for Boston. Not that I'd go run the race if I qualified, but want to see how close I'd come. -For the first time in a long time, I am really really liking long runs right now. So I want to go with what I'm feeling for the time being. |
| 2015-11-25 10:33 AM in reply to: 3mar |
| 1508 Cypress, Texas | Subject: RE: Offseason Marathon a Good Idea or Not? I have a similar question on doing Marathons in the off season. My concern about Marathons is more the toll on the body. Setting aside the fact that if I am training for a marathon rather then working on my cycling and swimming I won't be as competitive in those two discipline could running a full marathon also hurt my run discipline if I am doing 70.3's as my "A races" and 5K's, 1/2 marathons, and sprint triathlons for intermediate goals? |
| 2015-11-25 11:29 AM in reply to: BlueBoy26 |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: Offseason Marathon a Good Idea or Not? Originally posted by BlueBoy26 I have a similar question on doing Marathons in the off season. My concern about Marathons is more the toll on the body. Setting aside the fact that if I am training for a marathon rather then working on my cycling and swimming I won't be as competitive in those two discipline could running a full marathon also hurt my run discipline if I am doing 70.3's as my "A races" and 5K's, 1/2 marathons, and sprint triathlons for intermediate goals? It depends on some things. The marathon training works for some largely because they will consistently put in more running than they have before. So not the marathon itself, but the run volume from it that is helping. Some of the plans can get rather lopsided (or unbalanced) in the mileage distribution though. 3mar is pushing this with his run plan as there are only 4 runs a week and the long run is up around 50% of the weekly volume. Where I've seen the marathon work better for people is when they can run enough that the LR is more like 30-33% of weekly. ~25% would be better still but this volume is huge. Some people still do well with the heavy LR%, but seems to be more scattered. Hence asking what 3mar was looking to get out of doing the marathon. And the possibility of redistributing the miles to push for a fast 10k (or something shorter than a marathon). Some people do get specific injuries. Some just get worn down physically even if nothing really breaks. Others mentally burn out. |
| 2015-11-25 11:34 AM in reply to: BlueBoy26 |
| 928 | Subject: RE: Offseason Marathon a Good Idea or Not? Originally posted by BlueBoy26 I have a similar question on doing Marathons in the off season. My concern about Marathons is more the toll on the body. Setting aside the fact that if I am training for a marathon rather then working on my cycling and swimming I won't be as competitive in those two discipline could running a full marathon also hurt my run discipline if I am doing 70.3's as my "A races" and 5K's, 1/2 marathons, and sprint triathlons for intermediate goals? The other thing is that for many people, how well they do on the run of a triathlon (especially the longer ones) has more to do with bike fitness and how they do on the bike than their run fitness. If you spend a lot more time on the run at the expense of the bike, you run the risk of burning yourself on the bike leg and then having a really tough run. Many people with good run fitness end up disappointing themselves on the run of a triathlon because of their lack of bike fitness. |
| 2015-11-25 12:02 PM in reply to: 3mar |
| 9 | Subject: RE: Offseason Marathon a Good Idea or Not? I am just getting into Tri's myself and started running about three years ago. Never did a high mileage running plan. Averaged about 20MPW which is pretty low. I focused on running quality miles and a bunch of 5Ks, then moved up to a few Half marathons, before running my first marathon the Ft.Lauderdale Publix Full last February. Leading up to the Full I ran the Miami and West Palm Half Marathon. My longest training run was 9 miles so the half marathons were my longest training runs. Ended up 14th overall in the Marathon. I think if you have quality training miles you can do very well in your Marathon. Do a few 5K races and use your times and convert them on https://www.mcmillanrunning.com/. This will give you a great idea what you can run your marathon in. This will provide you at what pace to run the marathon. You have a long time till your next Tri race, doing some running races will put you in a competition environment. Good luck. |
| 2015-11-25 12:10 PM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Offseason Marathon a Good Idea or Not? Originally posted by 3mar Originally posted by marcag . for me, 2x very intense bike sessions, 1x easier 1x very hard swim sessions, 2x easier 6-7x easier run sessions. I always do the ST100/100 challenge. usually brings me to March with a reasonable FTP, probably a bit below bike endurance, but a solid run. PB on on marathon ? NO, but I could run a decent half. I then move to more quality on the runs, longer bikes (no more snow). this is more a reality of living in a Nordic country. Always monitor for not overloading yourself. This is a 2x per day regimen which is NOT for everyone. So this got me to thinking about actually laying this out and seeing what it looked like. I'm able to workout mornings and lunches just about every day. Saturday is a workout that my wife and I started doing together last week and she really likes it, so that makes her happy, so I have to keep it (I do the swim on my own and she meets me for the weights and spin class). Here is what I came up with. I think this is very doable and would maintain my bike and swimming while still giving a decent build up to a marathon. Thoughts? Edit: I originally had this as text, but it's easier to see as an attachment with the formatting from Word. the devil is in the details of those workouts. And your priority isn't clear Bike or Marathon. For example, if the spin classes are really hard, then a) too much intensity overall b) long run and spin on same day is tough if the spin classes aren't hard, then there isn't enough bike intensity IF bike improvement is your priority. in what I threw out, all most bikes are really hard, most runs are easy (with exceptions) and the goal is to be ready for the next phase not to PB a marathon. But the result is a decent ftp and a good run base. With a few additional weeks I could probably put out a really good half M It also depends on what your M goal would be. Really well trained you are probably sub 3:10 material. 3:20 is probably much easier for you if you mix your training up and remain multisport Edited by marcag 2015-11-25 12:33 PM |
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