General Discussion Triathlon Talk » When does "fitness" happen? Rss Feed  
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2016-04-26 6:43 AM

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Subject: When does "fitness" happen?
I've been wondering about this. I don't understand the physiology, even if I do understand the concept (a little).

So, when does fitness really happen? Let's say a person does a 4 wk training block and then does a 1 wk taper (with a solid base underneath them). Does the increase in stamina/fitness/adaptation....whateveryouwanttocallit occur during the actual tearing down of the body that is "training"? Or, does it occur during the rest periods between the tearing down sessions?

I raced an international this past weekend and went as hard as I think I could have. My legs are still wrecked. Lets use that as an example (it matters not how fast or slow I went.....the effect is what it is) and help me understand how that kind of tearing down of one's body fits into "fitness". Is that good or bad for becoming more "fit"? Use your own experience with any distance/type race (ironman/marathon/ultra/etc...).

If the best reply is to steer me towards an outside link, that's great. I just don't know where to look for the answers.

Thanks.


2016-04-26 7:23 AM
in reply to: nc452010

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Subject: RE: When does "fitness" happen?
That's a pretty deep question. I'd be inclined to believe that the gains in fitness come from your body's adaptation to the work load. When you train you are making your body adapt to what you are requiring of it. But, it has been shown that adequate rest and recovery are needed for your body to gain. This is where over training comes in. If you don't even give your body time to bounce back from the stresses then you'll actually lose fitness.

I think that racing on the other hand is different than training and the processes for recovery and gaining fitness are different. If you were to train as hard as you raced on a day in day out basis you would either hurt yourself or get burned out fairly quickly. I'd venture to say that after a week of recovery from the race your fitness would probably be back to where it was right before the race but not much better. Only because it took so much out of you it required more to get back to the start. I think that's why endurance training takes so long to build. We cannot just go out full race pace all the time because our bodies would never recover. We are seeing a lot recommendations that we only run hard 20% of the time. During that 80% of easy running your body is still adapting to the work load but at a slower more controlled rate.

But to answer the question as to when does the increase in stamina/fitness/adaptation happen? That would be during the rest/recovery period.
2016-04-26 7:25 AM
in reply to: nc452010

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Subject: RE: When does "fitness" happen?

An oversimplification would be fitness comes during the recovery after the "right training dose".

But that doesn't mean people should go nuts 3 weeks and recover one. Maybe it's they should go 1 day hard, 2 easier. Maybe it's 1 hard, 1 easy for 3 weeks and 1 week easier......

Bad things happen during too much training, sub optimal things happen with too much recovery. Too little and too much are hard things to find and they vary with time and external events

But it's during the recovery from the "right training dose" that the magic happens.

IMO.
2016-04-26 7:27 AM
in reply to: nc452010

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Subject: RE: When does "fitness" happen?

As Nick said, you don't get stronger from what you "do", you get stronger by recovering from what you "do". Simply "doing" more (whether it's longer or harder) just tears you down more. Your recovery well is only so deep, and after that the risk of injury and/or illness goes up exponentially. Finding the balance of work and recovery is an individual pursuit.

And remember that all stress digs into that recovery well. Work stress, family stress, lack of sleep, poor nutrition... It all affects your ability to recover.

2016-04-26 7:47 AM
in reply to: nc452010

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Subject: RE: When does "fitness" happen?
I always thought it was goal dependent.

For example, I'm fit for swimming a mile, but not for doing a 200 lb bench press. I have a friend that's the other way around.

We're both fit, just for different things.
2016-04-26 9:07 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: When does "fitness" happen?

Originally posted by marcag An oversimplification would be fitness comes during the recovery after the "right training dose". But that doesn't mean people should go nuts 3 weeks and recover one. Maybe it's they should go 1 day hard, 2 easier. Maybe it's 1 hard, 1 easy for 3 weeks and 1 week easier...... Bad things happen during too much training, sub optimal things happen with too much recovery. Too little and too much are hard things to find and they vary with time and external events But it's during the recovery from the "right training dose" that the magic happens. IMO.

^^^This^^^

Our "fitness" is never static.  At all times, we're either gaining or losing.  During training, we're breaking our bodies down.  When recovering from training, we're gaining fitness through what's called supercompensation.  This is the idea that after we create damage through training, our bodies repair the damage, plus a little bit more to insure against future damage.  Rest too long beyond the time when those repairs have occurred, and fitness begins to deteriorate. That's why consistency in training is so important.  Cycling back and forth between doses of training stress and recovery that are in balance with each other is the objective of training.  Too much or too little of either one will impair your improvements.

 



2016-04-26 9:08 AM
in reply to: marti038

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Subject: RE: When does "fitness" happen?

Originally posted by marti038 I always thought it was goal dependent. For example, I'm fit for swimming a mile, but not for doing a 200 lb bench press. I have a friend that's the other way around. We're both fit, just for different things.

That's the principle of specificity.  The training concepts of stress and recovery to achieve supercompensation are the same for both.

 

2016-04-26 9:12 AM
in reply to: nc452010

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Subject: RE: When does "fitness" happen?

It's a bit of a semantics issue, but I don't think you're really asking about "fitness" as much as structuring your training to be able to perform at an optimal level for your  targeted event.  In other words, how to "peak" at the right time.

No short answer.  It depends on the individual and the event they are training for.

When I first started doing serious triathlon training twelve years ago  I attended a weekend clinic with Joe Friel and adopted his periodization strategies pretty much straight out of his The Triathlete's Training Bible, but with some modifications to compensate for my age and my need for more recovery time.  Some of Friel's stuff is considered outdated these days, but a lot of the underlying theory still holds to be true.

I'm primarily focusing on swimming this year and am using Ernie Maglischo's Swimming Fastest to guide my training.  It not only deals with stroke technique, but also goes in-depth into the physiology of training and adaptation.  Great stuff, but it reads like a college textbook and at nearly 800 pages, it's not something you can get through without some effort.

Mark 

 

 

 

 

         

 

2016-04-26 9:54 AM
in reply to: RedCorvette

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Subject: RE: When does "fitness" happen?
I'll say this, Mark (I think that's right?????).....the answers to this make me question how many events I've signed up for, this year.

Great stuff in here, folks. I appreciate the information.
2016-04-26 10:05 AM
in reply to: nc452010

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Subject: RE: When does "fitness" happen?

Originally posted by nc452010 the answers to this make me question how many events I've signed up for, this year.

Why?

2016-04-26 10:32 AM
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Subject: RE: When does "fitness" happen?
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by nc452010 the answers to this make me question how many events I've signed up for, this year.

Why?




It makes me question if I have enough time to get in a good training block and still taper (optimally) for each race. It would just be less unclear if I didn't have races seemingly stacked on top of one another.

Do you agree or disagree with that? How much time is "optimal" to get in a good training block? Maybe if I knew that, it would make me feel differently.

Edited by nc452010 2016-04-26 10:33 AM


2016-04-26 10:42 AM
in reply to: nc452010

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Subject: RE: When does "fitness" happen?

It depends.  If you race frequently, you should not taper for each one.  Racing is training.

2016-04-26 11:44 AM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

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Subject: RE: When does "fitness" happen?
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

It depends.  If you race frequently, you should not taper for each one.  Racing is training.




I can't imagine not tapering a little (sometimes more) for any race I wanted to do well in. Just a different approach. Good luck.
2016-04-26 11:57 AM
in reply to: nc452010

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Subject: RE: When does "fitness" happen?

Originally posted by nc452010
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

It depends.  If you race frequently, you should not taper for each one.  Racing is training.

I can't imagine not tapering a little (sometimes more) for any race I wanted to do well in. Just a different approach. Good luck.

Not tapering does not equal not doing well.  An easy day or two prior to racing should be enough taper to have a good race.  (Likewise, an easy day or two after should be enough to recover.)  Just as an example (and, admittedly, not entirely applicable since not a pure endurance race) in high school and college I was a rower.  In the Spring, we would race almost every weekend.  An easy day on Friday, race on Saturday, off on Sunday.  Hard, regular training Mon-Thurs.  Tapers came only before the championship events--our main goal races for the season.  I assure you, we were trying our best to win every race we had.  We were simply looking for our peak performances to come at the end of the season.  Trying to taper before each race would have meant not developing as great an increase in fitness prior to our 'A' races--a bad trade-off for the chance of winning a few less important races.

The point is that if you really do race frequently, you cannot expect to peak for each race.  Therefore, you should not taper for each race.  You can take a 'different approach', but only at the cost of long-term progress.

2016-04-26 12:35 PM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

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Subject: RE: When does "fitness" happen?
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by nc452010
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

It depends.  If you race frequently, you should not taper for each one.  Racing is training.

I can't imagine not tapering a little (sometimes more) for any race I wanted to do well in. Just a different approach. Good luck.

Not tapering does not equal not doing well.  An easy day or two prior to racing should be enough taper to have a good race.  (Likewise, an easy day or two after should be enough to recover.)  Just as an example (and, admittedly, not entirely applicable since not a pure endurance race) in high school and college I was a rower.  In the Spring, we would race almost every weekend.  An easy day on Friday, race on Saturday, off on Sunday.  Hard, regular training Mon-Thurs.  Tapers came only before the championship events--our main goal races for the season.  I assure you, we were trying our best to win every race we had.  We were simply looking for our peak performances to come at the end of the season.  Trying to taper before each race would have meant not developing as great an increase in fitness prior to our 'A' races--a bad trade-off for the chance of winning a few less important races.

The point is that if you really do race frequently, you cannot expect to peak for each race.  Therefore, you should not taper for each race.  You can take a 'different approach', but only at the cost of long-term progress.




OK. So, we've gone from not tapering to some taper.

Common ground.
2016-04-26 12:43 PM
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Subject: RE: When does "fitness" happen?

Originally posted by nc452010
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by nc452010
Originally posted by JohnnyKay

It depends.  If you race frequently, you should not taper for each one.  Racing is training.

I can't imagine not tapering a little (sometimes more) for any race I wanted to do well in. Just a different approach. Good luck.

Not tapering does not equal not doing well.  An easy day or two prior to racing should be enough taper to have a good race.  (Likewise, an easy day or two after should be enough to recover.)  Just as an example (and, admittedly, not entirely applicable since not a pure endurance race) in high school and college I was a rower.  In the Spring, we would race almost every weekend.  An easy day on Friday, race on Saturday, off on Sunday.  Hard, regular training Mon-Thurs.  Tapers came only before the championship events--our main goal races for the season.  I assure you, we were trying our best to win every race we had.  We were simply looking for our peak performances to come at the end of the season.  Trying to taper before each race would have meant not developing as great an increase in fitness prior to our 'A' races--a bad trade-off for the chance of winning a few less important races.

The point is that if you really do race frequently, you cannot expect to peak for each race.  Therefore, you should not taper for each race.  You can take a 'different approach', but only at the cost of long-term progress.

OK. So, we've gone from not tapering to some taper. Common ground.

No.  An 'easy' day is not a taper.  It is just that, an easy day.  Any training program should have easy days around hard days.  Racing is a hard day.  You put easy days around it.

 

Edit:  I should note in the above example that Sunday was always an off day for us.  So it was not an extra rest day to account for a race.  It was there for the race plus the other work we had done during the week (as well as for 'non-training' reasons--we were students, not just athletes).



Edited by JohnnyKay 2016-04-26 12:47 PM


2016-04-26 12:49 PM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

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Subject: RE: When does "fitness" happen?
There's a reason I quoted you, Johnny Kay. I was simply using your words.

If we disagree on this, I can live with that. It's not a big deal, to me. In the overall scheme of the information I was looking for in this thread, we're out in the weeds, anyway.

Good luck this season.
2016-04-26 12:50 PM
in reply to: nc452010

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Subject: RE: When does "fitness" happen?

Most people can do a lot better in terms of rest, recovery, and taper by looking at all the non training things they are doing and optimizing that.  Especially sleep.  Often times we get into a mindset that training time and intensity is the only factor in how we will improve fitness (by training more or harder), or recover (by training less or easier).  The reality is that the other 20+ hours of the day that we are not training counts too in terms of the quality of rest and recovery we are getting.

For most of my "B" or "C" races I don't adjust training all that much.  Maybe slightly easier in the days leading up as Johnny mentioned, but I do make a more conscious effort to get more sleep and stay off of my feet as well.  IME, that works just as well as taking complete days off of training but not optimizing sleep and time on my feet.

2016-04-26 1:05 PM
in reply to: nc452010

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Subject: RE: When does "fitness" happen?

Originally posted by nc452010 There's a reason I quoted you, Johnny Kay. I was simply using your words. If we disagree on this, I can live with that. It's not a big deal, to me. In the overall scheme of the information I was looking for in this thread, we're out in the weeds, anyway. Good luck this season.

I'm not trying to be difficult or argue just for the sake of it.  But a taper has an actual definition in exercise physiology.  And it is not an easy day.  It's OK if you consider an easy day a taper, just like it's OK if you want to consider a lemon to be an orange.  It hurts no one and may not make an actual difference in what you do--so it seems to you to just be semantics.  But when you offer someone a slice of your 'orange', don't be surprised when they look at you like you're nuts.  :-)

2016-04-26 1:09 PM
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Subject: RE: When does "fitness" happen?
"An easy day or two prior to racing should be enough taper to have a good race."

Again...I was just referring to your words (quoted above). If it's not a taper, maybe you shouldn't call it one. Either way, it makes no difference to me. It affects me in no way.

Good luck.

Edited by nc452010 2016-04-26 1:09 PM
2016-04-26 1:11 PM
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Subject: RE: When does "fitness" happen?

And maybe to try to get back on point, racing frequently can be excellent training.  I don't do it anymore because the logistics of racing (travel, waiting around for start times, etc.) take up too much of my (un)available time.  But, when you can, racing is some of the best training you can do.  It can be a great catalyst for fitness to 'happen'.



Edited by JohnnyKay 2016-04-26 1:14 PM


2016-04-26 1:12 PM
in reply to: nc452010

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Subject: RE: When does "fitness" happen?

Originally posted by nc452010 "An easy day or two prior to racing should be enough taper to have a good race." Again...I was just referring to your words (quoted above). If it's not a taper, maybe you shouldn't call it one. Either way, it makes no difference to me. It affects me in no way. Good luck.

Ha ha!  I missed that when I wrote it. You got me!

2016-04-26 1:28 PM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

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Subject: RE: When does "fitness" happen?




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2016-04-26 1:40 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: When does "fitness" happen?

I'll go suck on an orange now.

2016-04-26 2:11 PM
in reply to: nc452010

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Subject: RE: When does "fitness" happen?

Originally posted by nc452010 "An easy day or two prior to racing should be enough taper to have a good race." Again...I was just referring to your words (quoted above). If it's not a taper, maybe you shouldn't call it one. Either way, it makes no difference to me. It affects me in no way. Good luck.

Since we're running off the rails anyway...I know JK knows this, so I'm not disagreeing with him, but just trying to help explain... in general, a good taper doesn't consist of easy days.  It's primarily short sessions at about the intensity of the planned race, but at a drastically decreased volume.  So, if you're racing sprints and olys, the meat of taper sessions is going to be at pretty high intensity.  Nothing easy about that at all.

In the case of someone who wants to race a lot, it can help to use an A, B, C race approach.

'A' races are the ones where you really want to knock it out of the park, and be in your best condition for.  For the average AGer, this can only be achieved about twice a year on average.  Genetically gifted professional athletes are more likely to be able to achieve this about 3 times a year.

'B' races are ones that you want to do well, but they're not as important as 'A' races.  For these, you'll do a partial taper, and go into them fairly well rested, but not at peak fitness.

'C' races are the lowest priority.  They are just part of your training, and done with no taper at all.  They're a good opportunity to hone your racing skills for the higher priority races.

IMO, using this approach can be an effective way to develop your annual training plan.

 

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