General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Drafting -- Cheating vs. Illegal with Penalty Rss Feed  
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2006-11-02 8:26 AM

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Subject: Drafting -- Cheating vs. Illegal with Penalty
Drafting is absolutely in violation of the rules of a non-draft event. Is any infraction of the rules therefore considered cheating?

In football, if you are caught holding, face mask, pass interference, etc., you are penalized. I don't think that you are cheating to win.

In basketball, if you foul someone, you are penalized. If you get away with a foul and it isn't called, noboby thinks you are cheating.

In triathlons, if you draft and get caught you are penalized. Difference here is that you were considered to have cheated.

Maybe it is because there are so few rules officials, that we need to use the term cheating to scare away people from doing something that does have a penalty attached but is rarely enforced. Perhaps it is more like golf where you are supposed to call the penalty on yourself.

Cheers





2006-11-02 8:30 AM
in reply to: #586307

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Subject: RE: Drafting -- Cheating vs. Illegal with Penalty

GolfMark - 2006-11-02 8:26 AM
Drafting is absolutely in violation of the rules of a non-draft event. Is any infraction of the rules therefore considered cheating? 

No. You throw a gel-pack on the ground, its a rule violation and a time penalty but not cheating. You're not gaining time or speed by this as you could have tucked it in your jersey or shorts.

Riding behind someone gains you time, which puts you closer to winning. Thats cheating to me.

2006-11-02 8:36 AM
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Subject: RE: Drafting -- Cheating vs. Illegal with Penalty
Comet - 2006-11-02 9:30 AM

GolfMark - 2006-11-02 8:26 AM
Drafting is absolutely in violation of the rules of a non-draft event. Is any infraction of the rules therefore considered cheating? 

No. You throw a gel-pack on the ground, its a rule violation and a time penalty but not cheating. You're not gaining time or speed by this as you could have tucked it in your jersey or shorts.

Riding behind someone gains you time, which puts you closer to winning. Thats cheating to me.

I agree with Haley. 

And just to throw fuel on the fire...if you're caught doing a 'non-time-enhancing' violation (gel pack littering, etc), a time penalty is appropriate. 

On the other hand, if you get caught cheating (trying to improve your time/position by drafting or hindering someone else's time), I think the penalty should be a DQ.  The current drafting penalties are ineffective. 

2006-11-02 8:48 AM
in reply to: #586307

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Subject: RE: Drafting -- Cheating vs. Illegal with Penalty
GolfMark - 2006-11-02 8:26 AM

Drafting is absolutely in violation of the rules of a non-draft event. Is any infraction of the rules therefore considered cheating?

In football, if you are caught holding, face mask, pass interference, etc., you are penalized. I don't think that you are cheating to win.

In basketball, if you foul someone, you are penalized. If you get away with a foul and it isn't called, noboby thinks you are cheating.

In triathlons, if you draft and get caught you are penalized. Difference here is that you were considered to have cheated.

Maybe it is because there are so few rules officials, that we need to use the term cheating to scare away people from doing something that does have a penalty attached but is rarely enforced. Perhaps it is more like golf where you are supposed to call the penalty on yourself.

Cheers

Not everything that carries a penalty is considered cheating. I disagree with your football analogies--how is illegally defending a pass or tackling a ball carrier by his facemask not "cheating to win"? The assumption is that, had you not illegally defended the play, the receiver would have caught the ball. That's the reason why, in the NFL, the penalty for pass interference is that the offense gets the ball at the spot of the foul.
A better example might be the penalty for excessive celebration or taunting. A player can be given a taunting penalty even if his team is losing by 40 points. It's a matter of imposing a certain level of sportsmanship on the game, not necessarily ensuring a level playing field.

I'd also take issue with your assertion that "If you get away with a foul and it isn't called, noboby thinks you are cheating." When Diego Maradona illegally punched the ball into the goal in the 1986 World Cup vs. England (known as the "Hand of God Goal"), he got away with it, but everyone knew he cheated.

I think Comet hit it on the head--drafting, like pass interference or putting pine tar on your pitching hand (*cough*KennyRogers*cough*) gives you an unfair advantage over a someone who is following the rules, therefore, it's cheating.

2006-11-02 8:57 AM
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Subject: RE: Drafting -- Cheating vs. Illegal with Penalty

It is like golf. You're in the woods and your ball is in a hole. No one will see you move your ball six inches over......so do you do it? Is it cheating? Hell yes.

Some sports by the nature of the size of the "field of play" and the lack of officials require some self policing and morale integrity. Golf and Triathlons are two perfect examples of such sport. It all comes down to the character of the participant. Those who lack character will draft until caught, those who don't are people I want to race or play golf with.

You can't compare a sport like football or hockey to triathlon. The rules in the former sports are mostly up to interpretation and preception of officials where triathlon and golf rules are very black and white.

2006-11-02 8:58 AM
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Subject: RE: Drafting -- Cheating vs. Illegal with Penalty
Blocking could be considered cheating as well ... even if unintentional ... in that it affects the finishing time of another athlete.


2006-11-02 9:34 AM
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Subject: RE: Drafting -- Cheating vs. Illegal with Penalty
brian - 2006-11-02 8:58 AM

Blocking could be considered cheating as well ... even if unintentional ... in that it affects the finishing time of another athlete.


I wonder why slow runners don't get blocking calls. Is there even a rule on the books? I've never seen or heard of a runner/walker in a triathlon getting dinged for a blocking penalty on the run even though we all know that it can and does slow others down.

On a crowded out and back course that's a real issue.
2006-11-02 11:23 AM
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Subject: RE: Drafting -- Cheating vs. Illegal with Penalty
Jackemy - 2006-11-02 8:57 AM

It is like golf. You're in the woods and your ball is in a hole. No one will see you move your ball six inches over......so do you do it? Is it cheating? Hell yes.

Some sports by the nature of the size of the "field of play" and the lack of officials require some self policing and morale integrity. Golf and Triathlons are two perfect examples of such sport. It all comes down to the character of the participant. Those who lack character will draft until caught, those who don't are people I want to race or play golf with.

You can't compare a sport like football or hockey to triathlon. The rules in the former sports are mostly up to interpretation and preception of officials where triathlon and golf rules are very black and white.



I see it more like golf in terms of tradition of integrity. I disagree that the rules are black and white. There is the rules book in golf and then there is an whole book about interpeting the rules since it can be so complex. I was watching a tournament in Los Angeles (Sherwood) and Colin Motgomerie had to have three different officials come over and give him a ruling about where to take relief.

Also, if drafting is 7 feet for example, how do they tell the difference between 6 feet and 11 inches and 7 feet and 1 inch.

I agree that the rules of triathlon compared to other sports are relatively simple.

Cheers
2006-11-02 11:27 AM
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Subject: RE: Drafting -- Cheating vs. Illegal with Penalty
jmk-brooklyn - 2006-11-02 8:48 AM




I'd also take issue with your assertion that "If you get away with a foul and it isn't called, noboby thinks you are cheating." When Diego Maradona illegally punched the ball into the goal in the 1986 World Cup vs. England (known as the "Hand of God Goal"), he got away with it, but everyone knew he cheated.

I think Comet hit it on the head--drafting, like pass interference or putting pine tar on your pitching hand (*cough*KennyRogers*cough*) gives you an unfair advantage over a someone who is following the rules, therefore, it's cheating.



I think it is more the sport. In football, anything goes. Reggie Bush acknowledged that he pushed Matt Leinart into the end zone in the USC/Notre Dame game. Nobody thinks of them as a bunch of cheaters (well maybe some bitter ND'ers). I guess he took a risk by breaking a rule, didn't get caught and therefore it is fine. If you take a chance by drafting (breaking a rule), don't get caught, it is okay to call that person a cheater (like this year's Kona).

Cheers
2006-11-02 11:52 AM
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Subject: RE: Drafting -- Cheating vs. Illegal with Penalty
GolfMark - 2006-11-02 11:23 AM
Jackemy - 2006-11-02 8:57 AM

It is like golf. You're in the woods and your ball is in a hole. No one will see you move your ball six inches over......so do you do it? Is it cheating? Hell yes.

Some sports by the nature of the size of the "field of play" and the lack of officials require some self policing and morale integrity. Golf and Triathlons are two perfect examples of such sport. It all comes down to the character of the participant. Those who lack character will draft until caught, those who don't are people I want to race or play golf with.

You can't compare a sport like football or hockey to triathlon. The rules in the former sports are mostly up to interpretation and preception of officials where triathlon and golf rules are very black and white.

I see it more like golf in terms of tradition of integrity. I disagree that the rules are black and white. There is the rules book in golf and then there is an whole book about interpeting the rules since it can be so complex. I was watching a tournament in Los Angeles (Sherwood) and Colin Motgomerie had to have three different officials come over and give him a ruling about where to take relief. Also, if drafting is 7 feet for example, how do they tell the difference between 6 feet and 11 inches and 7 feet and 1 inch. I agree that the rules of triathlon compared to other sports are relatively simple. Cheers

The the point was that it was clear that he got relief. Wether or not they can figure out where to drop the ball due to probably a unique condition is up to the tournament director. But everyone knows it within a club length or two from the point of entry no closer to the hole.

 



Edited by Jackemy 2006-11-02 11:53 AM
2006-11-02 11:57 AM
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Subject: RE: Drafting -- Cheating vs. Illegal with Penalty

Rules are used to discourage certain activities during events whether it be in football, basketball, running, triathlons, or any other sport. Just because someone uses the rules as a strategic move, doesn't make them a cheater. They understand the rules and the repreccusions that come with breaking those rules. If the rules aren't strict enough thats another issue.

 Basketball is a great example because it's used so frequently. Fouls at the end of the game are used almost every game as a strategic move, but it's not cheating. The benefit of being penalized can help the team, obviously at the expense of the penalty. I agree, being deceitful about breaking the rules is an integrity issue. However, if you knowingly break the rules understanding the penalty that you will take. That could be strategic.

With my lack of tri knowledge or experience, if a rider decides that drafting on a certain leg of the course would benefit them even with the penalty then more power to them.

The more they want to deter the action the stronger the rule. If they really want to do away with it....and if it is considered cheating. Make the penalty so severe that there would be no way of using it to an advantage.

 Just my .02.



2006-11-02 12:00 PM
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Subject: RE: Drafting -- Cheating vs. Illegal with Penalty
Jackemy - 2006-11-02 11:52 AM

GolfMark - 2006-11-02 11:23 AM
Jackemy - 2006-11-02 8:57 AM

It is like golf. You're in the woods and your ball is in a hole. No one will see you move your ball six inches over......so do you do it? Is it cheating? Hell yes.

Some sports by the nature of the size of the "field of play" and the lack of officials require some self policing and morale integrity. Golf and Triathlons are two perfect examples of such sport. It all comes down to the character of the participant. Those who lack character will draft until caught, those who don't are people I want to race or play golf with.

You can't compare a sport like football or hockey to triathlon. The rules in the former sports are mostly up to interpretation and preception of officials where triathlon and golf rules are very black and white.

I see it more like golf in terms of tradition of integrity. I disagree that the rules are black and white. There is the rules book in golf and then there is an whole book about interpeting the rules since it can be so complex. I was watching a tournament in Los Angeles (Sherwood) and Colin Motgomerie had to have three different officials come over and give him a ruling about where to take relief. Also, if drafting is 7 feet for example, how do they tell the difference between 6 feet and 11 inches and 7 feet and 1 inch. I agree that the rules of triathlon compared to other sports are relatively simple. Cheers

The the point was that it was clear that he got relief. Wether or not they can figure out where to drop the ball due to probably a unique condition is up to the tournament director. But everyone knows it within a club length or two from the point of entry no closer to the hole.

 



In that particularly situation, he wasn't happy with the first two officials who told him where he could drop it. He called an official over that finally gave him the drop.

Monty though has had some past brushes with pushing the rules.

I guess my whole point is that there will always be intrepretation when it comes to rules. I guess it comes down to "do you think you can go to sleep at night and think you won". But that may be a poor standard since some people may think "if you ain't cheating, you ain't trying".

I have seen racing packs in triathlons and it is annoying. I purposefully stay far away. Do I think of them as a pack of cheats? Yeah, I guess so. That is why I was wondering though why I don't see someone who tries at the bottom of the pile in football to grab the ball even after the ref has whistled the play dead as a cheater. I determine that it is the tradition of the sport and also the lack of officials.

Cheers
2006-11-02 12:08 PM
in reply to: #586698

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Subject: RE: Drafting -- Cheating vs. Illegal with Penalty
GolfMark - 2006-11-02 12:00 PM
Jackemy - 2006-11-02 11:52 AM
GolfMark - 2006-11-02 11:23 AM
Jackemy - 2006-11-02 8:57 AM

It is like golf. You're in the woods and your ball is in a hole. No one will see you move your ball six inches over......so do you do it? Is it cheating? Hell yes.

Some sports by the nature of the size of the "field of play" and the lack of officials require some self policing and morale integrity. Golf and Triathlons are two perfect examples of such sport. It all comes down to the character of the participant. Those who lack character will draft until caught, those who don't are people I want to race or play golf with.

You can't compare a sport like football or hockey to triathlon. The rules in the former sports are mostly up to interpretation and preception of officials where triathlon and golf rules are very black and white.

I see it more like golf in terms of tradition of integrity. I disagree that the rules are black and white. There is the rules book in golf and then there is an whole book about interpeting the rules since it can be so complex. I was watching a tournament in Los Angeles (Sherwood) and Colin Motgomerie had to have three different officials come over and give him a ruling about where to take relief. Also, if drafting is 7 feet for example, how do they tell the difference between 6 feet and 11 inches and 7 feet and 1 inch. I agree that the rules of triathlon compared to other sports are relatively simple. Cheers

The the point was that it was clear that he got relief. Wether or not they can figure out where to drop the ball due to probably a unique condition is up to the tournament director. But everyone knows it within a club length or two from the point of entry no closer to the hole.

 

In that particularly situation, he wasn't happy with the first two officials who told him where he could drop it. He called an official over that finally gave him the drop. Monty though has had some past brushes with pushing the rules. I guess my whole point is that there will always be intrepretation when it comes to rules. I guess it comes down to "do you think you can go to sleep at night and think you won". But that may be a poor standard since some people may think "if you ain't cheating, you ain't trying". I have seen racing packs in triathlons and it is annoying. I purposefully stay far away. Do I think of them as a pack of cheats? Yeah, I guess so. That is why I was wondering though why I don't see someone who tries at the bottom of the pile in football to grab the ball even after the ref has whistled the play dead as a cheater. I determine that it is the tradition of the sport and also the lack of officials. Cheers

Good insight on why Monty has never won any of the "Big Ones". He lack the mental toughness the game demands. But I guess that discussion is for another form.

2006-11-02 12:18 PM
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Subject: RE: Drafting -- Cheating vs. Illegal with Penalty

One of my favorite sports to compete in was rugby. It is one of the most violent and dangerous sports to play....yet they only have one official. Yet you rarely saw someone take a cheap shot or someone purposefully break the rules. If a player did commit a "rough" or overtly cheating foul and got away with it, it was very likely that player would get mutiple "legal" boots to the head during the next ruck.

I guess it has no bearing on triathlons but the self-policing policy on the pitch did have a nice simplicity to it.

 

2006-11-02 4:58 PM
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Subject: RE: Drafting -- Cheating vs. Illegal with Penalty
The question though is if the cheating move is in order to win or a simple mistake. how many people may not given even room after someone passes them do they accidently draft from the guy in front of you because only way you can get out of the draft zone is by hitting the breaks. Should that person get DQed for it? You have to look at the offensive and decide what pently is best. DQ is the biggest penty you can hand out and frankly should only be used for the worse offensives. someone who drafts for the entire bike section vs 1 sec is there a difference there? should both be DQed. I am sure I have violated the draft rules at my first tri some. heck they had you ride on a sidewalk I think for awhile or atleast a pretty narrow path. was I going to gain much from the 5 secs at most I would have been drafting? no. 2:00 would been huge off my time. Plus been silly since I was on the bike at the time and the only one left in my race on the course.

more competitve though you get the more they need to watch it and the more then do need to enforce it.

I think the litter rule is more there so they can get invited back. even during the run its too easy to have cups all over the place but on a bike well there is no way you can really clean 25 miles effectively after a race and lets face it any race wants to get invited back to the town. Race can not happen without local support.

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