The value of upper body strength training (Page 3)

Too me, there's nothing more relevant than personal results. Again, if it's so effective, then where is the speed? Where are the results that you see time and again from sport-specific training?

Again, a bunch of stuff that's irrelevant to the point that was being addressed.

More muscle = more calories burned.  You can argue against basic physiology and quote non-existent studies all day long. 

No, it's your chance to belittle people as is your habit here.

I'm done with this.

Nope, not at all, just looking for evidence. How is that belittling people?

The "original point being discussed" is whether time is better spent in the weight room, or doing actual SBR. Show me why the weight room is the better alternative.

It wasn't really an argument.  I was just saying think about what your goals are.    And by your logic there are at least some elite triathletes that do not swear by weight training so it must not be absolutely necessary.

It is perfectly rational to say that strength training may not benefit a triathlete (which is what I have said all along).  There is zero evidence that it does and quite a bit of evidence that suggests it does not.  The only "harm" I see in lifting is that is detracts from time that I could be spending on those efforts which I am sure benefit me as a triathlete.

There was an interesting article regarding strength and cycling. Muscle mass increases strength by a certain factor to which I don't have at the top of my head, but that in a windy situation cycling, the benefit of extra muscle and mass outweighs the aerodynamics of being smaller. That was eitehr in "Inside Triathlon" or "Triathlete." I don't remember which.

I like to weight train because I have always been a bit more muscular to begin, and also, I am anticipating the mixing of Ultimate Fighting with triahlon in the near future. Forget the whole Run/Bike/Swim deal. The REAL test is how you do for 15 minutes in the cage at the end of it all. Who loses the least blood or teeth at the end wins!

Yes and we all know that you are the end all and be all when it comes to tri training. Maybe you should go back over to ST.

I never said I was.  I clearly have my views, but I wouldn't post about this if I hadn't done some work on it to at least feel I have some legs to stand on.  You essentially called me irrational for these views, yet as far as I know have never offered any evidence that I am wrong.

This is completely uncalled for.  Last I checked, you're not the arbiter of what is OK to discuss on BT and I have never tried to belittle anyone's opinions on this (or any other) subject.  I do frequent ST as well because there are many knowledgeable posters there.

First of all that response now that I read it was a bit mean spirited and for that I apologize.

What I am and have been saying all along is that, if YOU personally don't want to spend the time in the gym then that is YOUR choice. Saying that strength training doesn't help as a blanket statement is just plain wrong. If strength training didn't hep at all then why would the NGB for Triathlon and Cycling (and I am assuming USA Swimming has it in their coaches manuel also) include modules on Strength Training and have a speaker at every coaching clinic I have ever attended? Why would a large percentages of the elite athletes spend time in the gym if they were getting no benefit from it?

If you re-read my original post, I was saying that whether you believe in strength training or not, you can't say that you aren't getting ANY benefit from doing it. How can you or anyone else say that Leg Presses (quads), Hamstring Curls (hamstrings), Calf Raises (calves), Squats (Quads), and various core exercises are not going to give you any benefit at all?

Again I am done talking about this, we beat this dead horse to a pulp a week or so ago and I don't have the time to waste on it again.

Oh dear G-d.  I can't believe I opened this up. 

Anyone see "What it Takes"?  Interesting that Peter Reid, Lori Bowden, Heather Fuhr, and Luke Bell all wasted valuable time strength training because it doesn't make them better triathletes.

I'll post these again, and then I'm out of this rediculous argument. 

Apology acceped.  Thank you.

Yes, we've beaten this horse before but you attempt to take views like mine to an extreme in order to devalue them (I suggest there aren't any proven benefits for those who want to improve their triathlon performance.  If you want to build muscle for some other reason or choose to believe that the research just hasn't found the right answer yet, I have no axe to grind.)    I continue to defend my position as perfectly reasonable given the current body of information.  Forgive the flogging.

Simply because the coaching bodies choose to include information about weight training does not mean that it provides direct benefits to triathletes.  Nor does the fact that some elites use weight training.  I'm sorry if you think it does.  On that we'll simply have to disagree.  (I could similarly argue that some coaches do not support use of the weightroom.  And some elites do not use it either.  This does not help support my argument, however.  Likewise, the inverse does not support yours.)

The benefits of weight training (e.g., increased strength) have not been shown to help improve performance in triathlons (e.g., because that strength does not appear to carry over to the specific actions involved in swimming, cycling & running).  Nor has the possible prophylactic use to avoid the injuries most likely to occur to triathletes (overuse).

So my cost/benefit analysis (for me personally with any non-tri factors included as well), says skip it.  The OP in this thread actually appears to be coming from the same position which is why I offered any advice in the first place (actually hoped it would be my last post in this thread).  Others, like you, will clearly come to different conclusions.

I don't mind repeating this at times if it helps to clarify my position (others who don't participate in our monthly to-and-fro read this stuff too).  And I've always tried to etablish my personal views seperate from the facts as they are currently understood in the existing research.

I know you posted these before, but I don't think I commented on them.  So at risk of continuing this thread longer , I'll just make a couple notes from the second (I don't think the first adds anything).  All emphasis mine:

So this writer believes that there may be enough positive info to suggest elites with avaiable time might derive some performance benefits from resistance training.  So Reid, Bowden Fuhr & Bell may well decide that it's worth it in hopes it might help them win in a sprint to the finish.  But this describes few of us on BT--certainly not me.

I'd note the only positive impact seems to be found through "explosive" resistance training in running.  So, plyometric training may be effective in improving running economy (no similar correlation for cycling or swimming).  However, this is a fairly advanced type of training and not generally suggested as a good idea for a typical BT athlete.

The studies do generally seem to agree that there is no negative to including strength training (except to the extent that it detracts from time doing the specific sport in question). 

These articles don't have me running to the squat rack. 

JohnnyKay - 2006-12-04 1:53 PM Thanks for your contribution. 

Um, you're welcome.  And in one google of 'weightlifting benefit triathlon', I found runnersworld plans, mark allen training plans, d3 plans, and a bunch of testamonials for weights as part of training plans for variety, power, injury prevention, balancing muscle pairs.

And add Tim DeBoom and me and my buddy Darrin and Stake and a few others to the list of folks that think that weightlifing, correctly applied within the training regimen for what you need, are of benefit.  And that's benefit that's not available to you if you hold everything else constant. 

rkreuser - 2006-12-04 1:00 PM

JohnnyKay - 2006-12-04 1:53 PM Thanks for your contribution. 

Um, you're welcome.  And in one google of 'weightlifting benefit triathlon', I found runnersworld plans, mark allen training plans, d3 plans, and a bunch of testamonials for weights as part of training plans for variety, power, injury prevention, balancing muscle pairs.

And add Tim DeBoom and me and my buddy Darrin and Stake and a few others to the list of folks that think that weightlifing, correctly applied within the training regimen for what you need, are of benefit.  And that's benefit that's not available to you if you hold everything else constant. 

Last time I'll repeat this one:  Just because lots of people say it's so, doesn't make it so.  There is little scientific evidence to back it up.  People think that it should help, but researchers have had a tough time proving it to be the case.  Ask MikeTheBear (and he obviously supports strength training) or read the second article Stake provided (a decent summary of what's out there).

If I were to add weightlifting on top of tri training, there may be some added benefit.  But if I have the time to do this, I can swim, bike and/or run more.  There is certainly added benefit from that and it is greater than weightlifting can provide (certainly at my far-from-elite level).  That's the choice I make.  I hope you realize my choice is not ill-informed even if future research eventually proves me wrong.

Those who choose to hit the weights should realize there is no overwhelming evidence that it will help their performance in triathlons (quite underwhelming at this point in time).  So they should either hope the researchers have just not found the connection yet or be content that they have other valid reasons for doing so.

Not really related, but I do find it funny that one potential benefit researchers have identified is explosive resistance training in running helps improve running economy.  Why?  They think it may be in part because it increases muscle stiffness (which may enhance its abilty to store and recover elastic energy as you run).  Lower flexibility seems to correlate to better running performance.  Go figure!