The value of upper body strength training (Page 4)

Question is how low can you go before it will hurt your performance as well as how low can you have it before you greatly increase your chances of injury which really hurts your performance.

Well, the benefits of resistance training are numerous - increased bone density and strength, reduced body fat % and a positive effect on your resting metabolic rate.

Does it specifically help me get faster in the sport of triathlon? I don't care. I don't get paid for racing, therefore I race for the challenege and to stay healthy, which coincidentally is the same reason I lift.

Ultimately, if you don't like to lift, chances are very good that you won't make it a priority in your life, or if you do manage to drag yourself to the gym, you won't work as hard at lifting as you do other in workouts.

Peter Reid for one swears by lifting even during his monster training weeks prior to Kona and he was an ok Triathlete

I think I've said this before, in one of the other threads about strength training. But hey, I'll repeat myself.

Firstly, I'll start by saying that strength training does not necessarily involve the weight room. I know the OP was specific, but the conversation has meandered. I think that distinction is important, because that means that I can do a sport-specific strength workout, but not necessarily spend that time in a weight room or gym.
Secondly, I will say that using a weight room is a personal preference. I am not much of a weight room kind of guy, so I don't go. If you're like me, then you probably won't get much out of the weight room. But that doesn't mean you are not doing strength work.

For running, you could do hills, or other types of drills that would be considered "speed" or "strength". You don't need weights, but you can work on the power of your legs. Same with the bike. For those that train with power, I would say that they could speak much more about strength workouts on a bike, and increasing power output and such. I know nothing of swimming, so I have no real idea as to an example of an in-pool strength exercise. I'm sure someone probably has something that works on power.

Now, nowhere did I say that you should not go use weights. I say that's a personal call. If you like to lift weights, then go do that. If you don't, then don't. If you are going to lift, though, make sure that you get some instruction on proper technique to avoid injury and to get the full benefit of the work you're doing.

I'm sure they can, but I'm not sure it would make sense in the weight training context. Let's say I did a study with a two groups of triathletes with the exact same s/b/r training except one group did weight training and the other did not. At the end of the study, I have the two groups race each other except I tell the weight-trained group that their weight training will give them a huge advantage in the race. By contrast, I tell the non-weight trained group that because they did no weight training, they're going to get their a&&es kicked by the other group. After the race I find that a significant number of the weight-trained group had better times than the other group. What can I conclude from my study? Not much. Did the weight-trained group have better times because of the physical improvements of weigh training, the psychological advantage of my having told them they would probably win because of the weight training, the fact that I told the non-weight-trained group that they would get their a&&es kicked, or a combination of all three?

Obviously, a real sports scientist could design a better study, but in the end, there's really no need to test the placebo or "quasi-placebo" effect. Placebos work on a certain percentage of the population - there's no dispute here. If someone believes that strength training will make them a better triathlete, chances are, it will.



My point here was that psychological and intimidation tactics play a role in sports. Triathletes tend to be more civil and more supportive of each other, at least at the amateur level. I don't know what the pros do to each other. Here again, if an athlete believes that his strength training will give him an advantage over his biggest rival who did no strength training, will that give him an edge? It's a more cerebral way of saying "Yo momma is ugly."

I joined a swim team this year and this is what I found:

I was lifting wieghts for about 3 months prior everyday.
When all the new kids with no former experience raced each other I easily beat everyone.
I had the largest muscle mass out of all them.
But, the little girls who have been swimming since they were young murder me ( Ill catch up by the end of the year )

So I think its obvious that technique is better than musles, but at the same time wieght lifting is fun for some. Also its alot cheaper than having to go to an indoor pool when its too cold.

All that being said I think its obvious both parties have their advantages, and that lifting wieghts every now and can help everyone.

During one of our hashes on this topic a few weeks ago, i posted about 6-8 summaries with results of strength training benefitting endurance athletes going both ways. That was all I had the patience for and tried to represent both sides of the argument.

Benefits are more substantial/measureable for those who are less trained, and minimal or unmeasureable for those who are more trained.

Saying there is no evidence that strength training benefits endurance athletes is simply false. Besides, there is no study that I've ever come across that measures "endurance athletes"...the studies typicall look at specific types of athletes (untrained college cyclists, high school swimmers, competitive CC skiiers, etc)

There are several studies showing that a course of strength training improved economy in runners & CC skiiers, (doesn't really matter the proposed mechanism...) and that wetland strength training was more beneficial than dryland strength training in high school swimmers...but both groups improved compared to prior to the strength training...two examples of a benefit for "endurance" athletes. There are plenty more examples showing that strength training helped, and in those that didn't show an improvement one can argue that the results being measured would not have detected an improvement. I am personally biased that strenght training is helpful for all but a minority of well-trained, professional caliber triathletes (which may be a handful of us on BT). But the majority of us will probalby see some aspects of their s/b/r improve by adding strength training whether that is in the weight room or in the field.

If you are not going to lift weights you need to be certain that youare doing STRENGTH work in your running, cycling and swimming, and not just mindlessly participating in those sports. Just cycling will not necesarily make you a STRONG cyclist. You need to deliberately plan for on-the-bike strength/power workouts on the bike in addition to your other work. People who don't want to do this or don't have the discipline should just get it over with in the winter time lifting weights with sport specific strength activities.

Coachign science abstracts is a nice website with collections of articles and summaries on many aspects of endurance traiing (not just strength conditioning).

Edited by AdventureBear 2006-12-04 11:45 PM

You can't conclude much b/c there are two variable factors - the training and what you told them. If you want to test the psychological factor, have them both do the same training, and tell them, or otherwise make them inclined to believe, different things.

I don't think this really adds any value to the thread... just trying to point out that science can help measure this.



Fair enough - people can find motivation in all kinds of ways, so in that sense I guess I agree.


As for the rest of the thread, as a beginner in the sport, I think the key distinction for many people in my position, and something they COULD be overlooking, is exactly what AdventureBear posted here:



I fit into the less trained category for sure, and so do many of the readers / lurkers, I'm sure. If you are starting from a lower fitness base, weight training might be more important as you improve both overall fitness and performance.



Also an important point for those less inclined to be in the weight room and looking for the specificity benefits or S/B/R.

One thing I think we are missing is how people swim/bike/run.

2 ways you can do it. Muscle through it or go for the efficient form and techique.

if you follow chi running the concept is weight lifting is a waste of time since the idea is to have more muscles loose when you run. Sure you can muscle your way through it and then more muscles are better.

Triswimcoach guy I asked him about weight lifting and he was like your better work on your form letting yourself glide through the water with less resistance than using brute force.

Biking well I no nothing about biking so I will leave that to the bike experts.

I think if you have good techique then if you find weight lifting is benefical then I say go for it but probably better off getting good techique at s/b/r before you start lifting.

Perhaps if you had lifted weights more....

You know what is funny. I see pics of the bear and go man that guy is built. Maybe the pics are misleading but man from his avatar pic he does look built and if that is from no weight lifting I would have to say lifting is not needed.

Yes, it's true. Some of us muscle-bound oafs do have an IQ that's slightly above average. Not much, but slightly. Nor are we all 'roided up freaks ready to tear someone's head off at the slightest provocation. I adopted the name Mike "The Bear" because my wife and daughter refer to me as their big teddy bear.

And all along I thought it was just because you were one cool dude!

Flattery designed to lessen the provocation to tear off my head....

Edited by the bear 2006-12-05 3:59 PM

nothing wrong with lifting for vanity. I just forgot all of that.

Actually unless I am completely off base we can test if biking and running up hill builds muscles. Ok the test is baised against biking and running, but its something you can try at home. Makes me want to try it and skip the lifting.

you can do a max lift test now and in 6 month or a year go and try it again and see how much if any you improved.

Uh, I don't think anyone is disputing that biking and running uphill builds muscle. And if that sounds like a more appealing alternative than lifting weights, well, go for it. But I believe the OP referred to UPPER BODY strength training, something that I think has been largely lost in this thread.

Also, unless you're trying to win some sort of powerlifting competition, I would highly recommend not attempting any 1-rep max lift tests as that is a great way to injure yourself. If you really feel the need to max-out, stick to 3 reps and have a spotter.

Oh, and make sure the hot chicks are watching.

I just read most of this thread and a lot of it is beating a dead horse. I may be able to interject something a little unique because Icome from a background of spending years studying weightlifting and bodybuilding. I came to the conclusion years ago that I did not have the genetics to be a bodybuilder as I wanted to be but nonetheless I love the iron game, especially the older guys from the 70's like Arnold, Zane, Mentzer, Platz etc.

My input is that I agree 100% that weight training will not do enough to improve your Tri ability noticeably if you are training correctly for tri's IF you are fairly young and doing a lot of training. For an elite tri-athlete I can see where it may become counterproductive but for someone older or very average, I can see where performace may be enhanced.

I do not believe that the arguement should be wether it improves TRi ability or not but it MAY help to give you more longevity in the sport as weight training will help by giving you stronger muscles which lead to immeasurable benefits (not connected with tri performance) as have been pointed out. As I said, in certain athletes, this may make a difference.

An interesting point is that it has been shown that cardio endurance can be improved with ONLY weight training, done correctly.

After years and years of studying various systems of weight training and experimenting with most of them I came to some definite conclusions. As far as TRI training goes, it appears to me that a lot of you are dramatically overtraining. In fact most bodybuilders are dramatically overtraining.

This brings me to my main point. Weight training in any event needs to be brief and infrequent to derive maximum benefits. I think that if you are not seeing benefits, or in fact feeling that it hampers your training, take a good look at the volume you are doing.

The very purpose and goal of weight training is exactly opposite to those of tri training. It is intended to build muscle mass, increase strength, (thereby reducing stress on tendons and ligaments) and improve flexibility.

These benefits only occur when you are NOT training. The act of weight training is very destructive. Basically the body resoponds to the breakdown by adapting to the new load and building more tissue.

Unless you provide overload you are wasting your time weight training. You cannot overload by doing low weights and high reps, or even medium weights (with no progression) You are FAR better off just B/R/S if you are doing that.

I suspect that if you are not seeing results from weight training it is because you are training as though weight training is a 4th component to the tri training and you are deriving no benefit other that to overtrain your system. Progression must be in the form of heavier and heavier loads, not more and more exercise.

I will not spend 2 hrs here explaining and espousing the benefits of heavy duty training but I will, for those interested describe what I believe would be most beneficial to the triathlete.

BRIEF, INTENSE training, conducted very sparingly. No more than 15 - 20 minutes for any one session and each session is only to be conducted every 5 - 7 days!

This may sound like too little but I assure you that you will see more results from this training than from 2 hr sessions 4 times a week.

You can look at my log to see how I train. I have not trained in anything (other than a lot of bodyboarding) for the past 4 years. You will see how fast I progress because you will progress dramatically if you do this correctly. I already notice an improvement in how I feel from just a few workouts.

If you would like to give this a try, let me know, I will be glad to point you in the right direction and to experts in this type of training.

Some tips for this type of training are.........always move the weight very slowly and deliberately (some sets will be 30 seconds up and 30 seconds down at advanced levels) 5 up and down would be good to start insead of bouncing and using momentum. Youi will use less weight and it will be harder BUT you will benefit more. (lots more specifics are available)

Do no more than 2 - 3 sets (preferably 1 -2) tops for each exercise with ONE main set to absolute failure, this is critically important as that is how the body adapts for the next workout.

Break the training into 3 parts. Chest, shoulders, tri's..........Back, core and Biceps.........Legs.

Take at least 3 days off between each session.

If you are doing more than one session a week right now,take a full week or two off from weight training before starting this.

My theory is that if you are an elite triathlete, weight training may not be beneficial at all if you are training 15 - 30 hrs a week. If you are doing a lot of tri's and training a lot but not elite, it may not help much either (except in the off season) BUT if you are someone new or just doing a few races a year and training 10 hrs a week or less, I bet that correct training will help. I think for older athletes it is very important.

In sumation, it is not right or wrong, it is what you are doing it for and wether you may even need it at your level.

An article that helps illustrate actual performace difference in heavy duty weight trained athletes and a control group not trained with weights.

They were probably still overtraining though and not using proper heavy duty training techniques.

http://www.runnersweb.com/running/rw_news_frameset.html?http://www....