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2006-12-20 8:58 PM

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Subject: Mike R and other coaches- convince why I need a coach rather than a plan
So based on a thread in the Ironman section, Mike R posits that money spent for a coach will feed back into more time savings over the course of an IM than money spent on say a set of race wheels. However, I made significant improvements last year just by actually following a plan(actually plans) which I had never done before in my triathlon career. I did any modification needed for real life flexibility myself but mostly tried to follow the plans. When I cracked in one of my A races for the year, it was 100% on me and my mental effort/equipment preparedness and not at all related to lack of fitness. The best coach in the world can't fix that sort of thing- only I can learn from the experience and take steps so it doesn't happen again.

Getting back to the question at hand: Choice A would be following a plan or plans again this upcoming season and picking up a set of race wheels or a power meter and renting race wheels for a few races and choice B would be paying for a coach and probably still rent race wheels for races.

Opinions- Mike R., Joel, Jorge, etc?


2006-12-20 9:10 PM
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Subject: RE: Mike R and other coaches- convince why I need a coach rather than a plan

xterratri - 2006-12-20 9:58 PM So based on a thread in the Ironman section, Mike R posits that money spent for a coach will feed back into more time savings over the course of an IM than money spent on say a set of race wheels. However, I made significant improvements last year just by actually following a plan(actually plans) which I had never done before in my triathlon career. I did any modification needed for real life flexibility myself but mostly tried to follow the plans. When I cracked in one of my A races for the year, it was 100% on me and my mental effort/equipment preparedness and not at all related to lack of fitness. The best coach in the world can't fix that sort of thing- only I can learn from the experience and take steps so it doesn't happen again. Getting back to the question at hand: Choice A would be following a plan or plans again this upcoming season and picking up a set of race wheels or a power meter and renting race wheels for a few races and choice B would be paying for a coach and probably still rent race wheels for races. Opinions- Mike R., Joel, Jorge, etc?

 

Let me answer this in two parts. First of all you said that you followed a plan for the first time in your tri career and had great results. This was a case of you being a good enough athlete that any stimuli forced you to improve. Eventually this will not be the case and your performance will plateau, then what happens? A coach will be able to design a plan specifically for you and your goal races. A coach will be able to see from your data what varying stimuli will do for you and adapt your plan accordingly. Also eventually your limiters will be more specific, as in being able to hold xxx watts on a climb or acheiving a cadence of xx on the run, or increasing turn over (you get my point). At some point your performance is going to exceed your knowledge base.

 

In your second statement you mentioned cracking in your A race and what a coach could have done about it. Sometimes we just crack, happens to everyone. However most coaches have a well of personal knowledge that we can draw from and advise you on what to do to avoid bonking in your A race. A good coach will also have had you do enough race simulation that nutrition and pacing shouldn't be a problem. A good coach is going to remind you to get your equipment checked and make sure everything is ready to go, a good coach will also be able to get you mentally prepared to suffer ( if that is what your goal is) on race day in order to achieve your goals.

Bottom line is a good coach is worth their weight in gold, it never hurts to have an experienced, trained person to ask questions, get perspective or just talk to when things are not going so well. It's your choice, good luck with what ever you decide.

2006-12-20 9:20 PM
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Subject: RE: Mike R and other coaches- convince why I need a coach rather than a plan
Okay helpful answer but it springs more questions-

How do I know when I've hit the level where it gets much tougher to eek out improvements? I don't think I'm there yet but...

Second thing- I didn't bonk, I froze. Literally. Underdressed for the cold, wet and wind on the bike so started the run chilled. In spite of being able to run 9 minute miles, I couldn't mentally force myself to run more than one and then walk one and then eventually I was walking all of them. Tired, a little. Bonked- nope, not at all. Hindsight- I did the same thing to my body on the bike at Mooseman but by forcing myself to keep running no matter how slow, I warmed back up and what do you know- negative split the half mary by over a minute a mile the second lap. As I said, it was a learning experience and one would have thought that I would have learned it at LP 2003 or one of the three other races I did in the rain this year. Nope, it took cracking in an IM to get it to sink in. Maybe that's an arguement for a coach but on race day it's just me out there to succeed or fail.
2006-12-20 9:28 PM
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Subject: RE: Mike R and other coaches- convince why I need a coach rather than a plan

You may not be at the level where you are just seeing marginal improvements yet, but it will come. A coach will also help you to maximize your training time and get more out of your workouts. You had mentioned purchasing a Power meter ( good decision) but do you know how to use it? Or how to test to find your Threshold Power? Or how to design a plan incorporating this new piece of equipment? (I am just asking you, not trying to make you feel like you don't know what you are doing). 

As for the freezing things, unless its Florida or Texas in the summer, I always encourage my athletes to take gear for all kinds of weather. Expect the unexpected!

2006-12-21 8:49 AM
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Subject: RE: Mike R and other coaches- convince why I need a coach rather than a plan

This is coming from a self-coached athlete, but I'll echo the comments above. 

A good coach should provide the best return from your training.  And I'm not sure it's necessarily just deciding when you've plateued on your own (though that may be one reason).  A good coach should be able to help you make the most from your training time.  They won't just hand out workouts and send you on your way, but will listen for your feedback on the workouts (what went well, what didn't, etc.).  They should be able to adapt to your responses to different training loads and tailor the plan as you progress (perhaps pushing you harder or backing off as you need).  And ayou may still make mental/equipment mistakes, but a good coach should help you "get your head on straight" before a race and make sure you're as prepared as possible for whatever happens on race day.

Following a plan is a first step, as it provides a base progression that has worked for other athletes.  However, for a given individual it is very likely that they would benefit even more from modifications to this base plan, taking into account their personal background and training constraints.  The more you try to do this on your own, the more you risk losing some of the effects the plan is attempting to create--especially if you don't understand the rationale for how the plan is set up to begin with.

I've debated coaching for myself and so far have decided to invest in the training tools (HR monitor, power meter) and understanding some of the different training protocols (and using plans from coaches I respect).  If I had enough extra money to devote to the sport, I would definately hire a coach.  And of your options above, I would put race wheels at the bottom.  The coach, the plans and the power meter should all be more valuable to your training and racing.

2006-12-21 9:06 AM
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Subject: RE: Mike R and other coaches- convince why I need a coach rather than a plan
Not a coach, and I'm not in a position to hire one, but what are your goals?  If your goal is to BQ or Kona, what kinds of improvements will you need to make, and do you know enough sports physiology to Do-It-Yourself?  How important are these goals? From my perspective (recreational triathlete, training for fitness), renting race wheels is a pretty expensive proposition and the only reason to do so would be if you're marginally close to your ultimate goal.  If you've already got "decent" gear, then gear probably isn't the limiter for you. 


2006-12-21 9:54 AM
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Subject: RE: Mike R and other coaches- convince why I need a coach rather than a plan
I used a coach last year for IMLP. While I considered it a worthwhile exercise, I've chosen not to continue and will be going solo for IMAZ. I'm very much the type that immerses himself in his hobbies and interests. As such, I do a lot of reading about training techniques and strategies. Looking back on my IMLP training, my coach didn't do to many things that I wouldn't have done myself. Those things that he did do differently, I'll be incorporating into my training.

I'm basically in the same situation that you are. There are plenty of general improvements for me to make that I can effectively do on my own. I'm not convinced there will ever be a point where my limiters need the feedback of a dedicated coach because I believe I can identify and rectify those limiters myself. I base that opinion on my knowledge of myself. Your mileage may vary.

Edited by dgunthert 2006-12-21 9:56 AM
2006-12-21 10:12 AM
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Subject: RE: Mike R and other coaches- convince why I need a coach rather than a plan

xterratri - 2006-12-20 6:58 PM When I cracked in one of my A races for the year, it was 100% on me and my mental effort/equipment preparedness and not at all related to lack of fitness. The best coach in the world can't fix that sort of thing- only I can learn from the experience and take steps so it doesn't happen again.

I beg to differ on this point. A properly laid out race plan will help you avoid these pitfalls. You probably went out too fast and cracked. I see it happen all the time. I don't see it very often with the crew I coach, b/c most of know the drill by now and they know we race just like we train. Negative split as much as we can, everyday. Once I have someone acclimated to my way of racing/training, the cracking is few and far between.

2006-12-21 10:14 AM
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Subject: RE: Mike R and other coaches- convince why I need a coach rather than a plan

xterratri - 2006-12-20 6:58 PM  Choice A would be following a plan or plans again this upcoming season and picking up a set of race wheels or a power meter and renting race wheels for a few races and choice B would be paying for a coach and probably still rent race wheels for races. Opinions- Mike R., Joel, Jorge, etc?

If you have a twin and I am coaching him and you are investing in race wheels, when you race, I am betting on your twin. Sorry. :-)

Choice A is a good one, but if you don't know how to use the PM what good is it? IMO you still need the guidance.

2006-12-21 10:17 AM
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Subject: RE: Mike R and other coaches- convince why I need a coach rather than a plan

xterratri - 2006-12-20 7:20 PM Okay helpful answer but it springs more questions- How do I know when I've hit the level where it gets much tougher to eek out improvements? I don't think I'm there yet but... Second thing- I didn't bonk, I froze. Literally. Underdressed for the cold, wet and wind on the bike so started the run chilled. In spite of being able to run 9 minute miles, I couldn't mentally force myself to run more than one and then walk one and then eventually I was walking all of them. Tired, a little. Bonked- nope, not at all. Hindsight- I did the same thing to my body on the bike at Mooseman but by forcing myself to keep running no matter how slow, I warmed back up and what do you know- negative split the half mary by over a minute a mile the second lap. As I said, it was a learning experience and one would have thought that I would have learned it at LP 2003 or one of the three other races I did in the rain this year. Nope, it took cracking in an IM to get it to sink in. Maybe that's an arguement for a coach but on race day it's just me out there to succeed or fail.

I would have you eat more ice cream. I am serious, you need some fat on you! ;-)

More than anything, race day has to become a day like any other day- just another day that you go out and swim/bike/run.

2006-12-21 10:42 AM
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Subject: RE: Mike R and other coaches- convince why I need a coach rather than a plan
JohnnyKay - 2006-12-21 6:49 AM

This is coming from a self-coached athlete, but I'll echo the comments above. 

A good coach should provide the best return from your training.  And I'm not sure it's necessarily just deciding when you've plateued on your own (though that may be one reason).  A good coach should be able to help you make the most from your training time.  They won't just hand out workouts and send you on your way, but will listen for your feedback on the workouts (what went well, what didn't, etc.).  They should be able to adapt to your responses to different training loads and tailor the plan as you progress (perhaps pushing you harder or backing off as you need).  And ayou may still make mental/equipment mistakes, but a good coach should help you "get your head on straight" before a race and make sure you're as prepared as possible for whatever happens on race day.

Following a plan is a first step, as it provides a base progression that has worked for other athletes.  However, for a given individual it is very likely that they would benefit even more from modifications to this base plan, taking into account their personal background and training constraints.  The more you try to do this on your own, the more you risk losing some of the effects the plan is attempting to create--especially if you don't understand the rationale for how the plan is set up to begin with.

I've debated coaching for myself and so far have decided to invest in the training tools (HR monitor, power meter) and understanding some of the different training protocols (and using plans from coaches I respect).  If I had enough extra money to devote to the sport, I would definately hire a coach.  And of your options above, I would put race wheels at the bottom.  The coach, the plans and the power meter should all be more valuable to your training and racing.

As usual, JK has some great points. One thing I will add is that there are a lot of times I give a workout to an athlete and afterwards they will say to me: I wouldn't have never thought that up on my own, and there is no way I would have ever done it without knowing someone was there to see that it was completed. In D3-Land we call these Break Through days. ;-)



2006-12-21 10:47 AM
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Subject: RE: Mike R and other coaches- convince why I need a coach rather than a plan
Maybe a little more background is needed. I've been a triathlete for 10 years, doing my own thing up until last year when I finally got more serious. I had training plans for 2006 from the same coach that covered the time from January until IM Moo. I've got some things on my race resume that were obviously accomplished because I was dumb enough not to know better such as finishing IM LP in 2002 and 2003 based on an Xterra training base. Was age group nationally ranked in Xterra for a couple of years w/ no training plan or any method to my training.

I've done the reading- Going Long, the Power Meter book, understand HR training and definitely have the education considering my Master's is in exercise science so I have a higher than average understanding of physiology even prior to med school. So I can look at a plan and understand where it's coming from and make reasonably appropriate modifications to my goals and/or time constraints. But plans tend to be geared toward one specific race and I tend to be slightly more prolific racer so I'm wondering how that would work out.

Seems coaching comes at different price points and the good ones w/ the frequent contact that provide the extra value such as more customization seems to be expensive when living on a budget of a stipend plus 45 days a year as a 2LT. The decision seems like it will be easy when I'm drawing Captain's pay but for now I still need convincing.
2006-12-21 10:49 AM
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Subject: RE: Mike R and other coaches- convince why I need a coach rather than a plan
I guess I am always challenged by the idea of an online coach.

I would want a coach to SEE me cycling and give me pointers on how to improve. Or SEE me swim and tell me what I can do to my stroke to get faster. Or SEE me run... to tell me how I can improve my form... or just see how my breathing is labored, etc. at a certain speed.

To me, if a coach is only online, all they can do is give you workout plans that fit your schedule and stregths and weaknesses... but they are only going off what you tell them.

I would love to have the money for a coach for some IM training... but I'm challenged to want to spend $100+ a month on a coach who I'll never see in person.

2006-12-21 11:06 AM
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Subject: RE: Mike R and other coaches- convince why I need a coach rather than a plan

xterratri - 2006-12-21 10:47 AM Maybe a little more background is needed. I've been a triathlete for 10 years, doing my own thing up until last year when I finally got more serious. I had training plans for 2006 from the same coach that covered the time from January until IM Moo. I've got some things on my race resume that were obviously accomplished because I was dumb enough not to know better such as finishing IM LP in 2002 and 2003 based on an Xterra training base. Was age group nationally ranked in Xterra for a couple of years w/ no training plan or any method to my training. I've done the reading- Going Long, the Power Meter book, understand HR training and definitely have the education considering my Master's is in exercise science so I have a higher than average understanding of physiology even prior to med school. So I can look at a plan and understand where it's coming from and make reasonably appropriate modifications to my goals and/or time constraints. But plans tend to be geared toward one specific race and I tend to be slightly more prolific racer so I'm wondering how that would work out. Seems coaching comes at different price points and the good ones w/ the frequent contact that provide the extra value such as more customization seems to be expensive when living on a budget of a stipend plus 45 days a year as a 2LT. The decision seems like it will be easy when I'm drawing Captain's pay but for now I still need convincing.

Except for the budgetary constraint, you actually sound like a perfect candidate for coaching.  You've clearly got a lot of potential and your schedule does not fit well into the "cookie-cutter" plans.  A coach should be able to maximize that potential and help you manage your training and racing.  There is certainly a financial commmitment (but you're talking about getting a power meter and race wheels which aren't cheap either), but you should at least give it some serious consideration.

2006-12-21 12:06 PM
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Subject: RE: Mike R and other coaches- convince why I need a coach rather than a plan

KSH - 2006-12-21 8:49 AM I guess I am always challenged by the idea of an online coach. I would want a coach to SEE me cycling and give me pointers on how to improve. Or SEE me swim and tell me what I can do to my stroke to get faster. Or SEE me run... to tell me how I can improve my form... or just see how my breathing is labored, etc. at a certain speed. To me, if a coach is only online, all they can do is give you workout plans that fit your schedule and stregths and weaknesses... but they are only going off what you tell them. I would love to have the money for a coach for some IM training... but I'm challenged to want to spend $100+ a month on a coach who I'll never see in person.

And you can do those things with an online coach. We have used video taping to assess run and swim form very effectively, AND I make it a point to see all my athletes once a year to train with them. I fly to see them or they come to Boulder and see me. That's an absolute part of the deal. There are lots of ways around the distance issue.

2006-12-21 12:14 PM
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Subject: RE: Mike R and other coaches- convince why I need a coach rather than a plan
KSH - 2006-12-21 11:49 AM

I guess I am always challenged by the idea of an online coach.

I would want a coach to SEE me cycling and give me pointers on how to improve. Or SEE me swim and tell me what I can do to my stroke to get faster. Or SEE me run... to tell me how I can improve my form... or just see how my breathing is labored, etc. at a certain speed.

To me, if a coach is only online, all they can do is give you workout plans that fit your schedule and stregths and weaknesses... but they are only going off what you tell them.

I would love to have the money for a coach for some IM training... but I'm challenged to want to spend $100+ a month on a coach who I'll never see in person.



There are lots of coaches so if you want one that is in your area, you should be able to find one with little difficulty.

As far as the coach seeing you, with the technology available today, it is very easy to capture some video of yourself and send it to your coach - it may not be as immediate but it will probably be just as effective (or moreso).

I would love to be able to afford an online coach, so that they could analyze my training, goals and help provide me with a plan to get there based on my schedule and strengths and weaknesses.

Keep in mind the actual cost of coaching compared to what many athletes will spend for the IM distance - $450 entry, travel, housing, nutrition, shoes, clothing, etc. At $1200 a year or about $25/week it's fairly reasonable since you are probably paying $100+/hr to be on the race course.

Shane


2006-12-21 12:38 PM
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Subject: RE: Mike R and other coaches- convince why I need a coach rather than a plan

Like Mike has had happen, I have gone to my coach and said, I would have never that to do that.  And the expertise is there.

Here is my 2 cents (This was my first year with a coach and I PR'ed every race).  The workouts, the schedule and all that was great, but the MOST I appreciated from a coach was someone to look at the big picture for me.  Also, it took the pressure of coming up with my own workouts.  I used my coach like a personalized computer.  I put in personal variables and what I wanted to do and he pumped me out a schedule that adapted as I did.  I just had to do the workouts.  That was KEY for me.  I was working 40 hrs, training 15+ and spending time with the Nan.  Scheduling was key for me.

It sounds like you like to do your own research.  If you do all the research and the work, then you are self-coached.  I believe Faris Al Sutan is self-coached.  But I also bet he has less free time than the ones that are coached. 

2006-12-21 12:40 PM
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Subject: RE: Mike R and other coaches- convince why I need a coach rather than a plan
I know this post is directed to coaches, but I wanted to share what was one of the biggest convincing factors for me when I was considering using a coach. Coaches generally use a coach for their own training. Clearly, they've got the understanding to set up their own plans, but maybe not the perspective that an outside person (another coach) would have.
2006-12-21 12:46 PM
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Subject: RE: Mike R and other coaches- convince why I need a coach rather than a plan

danielle860 - 2006-12-21 10:40 AM I know this post is directed to coaches, but I wanted to share what was one of the biggest convincing factors for me when I was considering using a coach. Coaches generally use a coach for their own training. Clearly, they've got the understanding to set up their own plans, but maybe not the perspective that an outside person (another coach) would have.

GREAT POINT! I have used a coach on more than one occasion and I always bounce my plan off someone to get that perspective about the big picture. That is lost on lots of people. Like training 20-21 hours a week in December - never going to see me do that! Unless 7-10 of those hours are skiing or snowshoeing!

2006-12-21 1:15 PM
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Subject: RE: Mike R and other coaches- convince why I need a coach rather than a plan

I wanted to wait until some real coaches spoke up before I put in my 2 cents.  As JohnyK. mentioned you seem to be a good candidate for a coach because you are trying to juggle a lot with school and lots of racing and need an objective "observer" of your big picture of what's going on. 

My 2 cents is related to purchasing pre-packaged plans from an online coach with no coaching attached to it.  I did this with Rich Strauss at Crucible Fitness (Advanced IM plan).  I've talked several times on the phone/email with Rich about a more aggressive plan for tackling sub 10:30.  He said there are types of workouts he would NEVER put in a generic IM plan sold online because he had no idea if the average person off the streets could handle the workout.  In other words, he would need to know a lot about a specific athlete before he got more aggressive with a training plan. You can only get that through a formal coaching agreement (i.e. monthly coaching program).  I may contract with Rich to develop a more "elite master" training plan for IM WI but I can't afford a monthly program right now (translation...can't convince my wife I "need" it). Hope I'm making sense.  Good luck.

2006-12-21 1:19 PM
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Subject: RE: Mike R and other coaches- convince why I need a coach rather than a plan

I've had this discussion with a few friends, family, etc. because as a beginner (this past year was my first off of the COUCH) they don't understand necessarily why I choose to use a coach.  I think this is a very personal decision.  I think many factors go into whether or not a coach is a good idea for an individual.  Are you a self starter? Do you need to be pushed? Do you really have the knowledge about the sport to get this done on your own or will you push too hard out of the gate and get hurt or bonk?  Do you need the inspiration? What about the instruction?  Have you been swimming all of your life and never ever need to think about your stroke?  Did you run track and have 'perfect form?'

Like I said - I started off of the couch.  I hadn't done a thing in ten years and I simply wanted to finish a Triathlon.  I did start on my own...but I quickly realized it was too overwhelming.  How could I really teach myself to swim, learn how to ride efficiently and be STRONG on the bike - and WOW, I'm horrible at running - what do I do to get better without getting absolutely discouraged and throwing my hands up. 

With all of that being said - people say to me, with the money you spend on your coach (AND SHE'S WORTH EVERY PENNY!) you could buy a great bike - or get all of the tools you need.  RIGHT...but, I am in a place that requires work on the engine first.  I could have the lightest, nicest, fastest RED bike in the world and if my engine sucks - I'm not going to do a damn thing with that bike...I know this.  For me, working with a coach that sends my schedule to me weekly after getting feedback about the previous week - that meets me to work out - watches me swim, bike & run...meets me to lift - tells me what I should do in regards to nutrition....well, it's the right solution for me right now.  Will I always need or want a coach - I don't know.  I'm attempting a Half Ironman this spring & again in the fall.  I have a lot of work to do between now and May and I KNOW me...If I start too fast out of the gate - alone...I'll burn out.  

 If you have the time to invest in reading about plans - about nutrition - about how to alter your schedule based on what you're doing to your body depending on your goals...maybe you'll decide you don't want or don't think you'll need a coach.  But, all I'm saying is - sometimes time is money.  I'd personally rather have someone guide me along - help me figure things out, etc. that way my free time (after working full time and training - seemingly full time) can be spent with those that I love...Best wishes in the 2007 season...coach or no coach!!! 



2006-12-21 1:45 PM
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Subject: RE: Mike R and other coaches- convince why I need a coach rather than a plan
I have tried many times to look at a generic plan and fit it to my schedule but my head starts spinning after a few minutes becuase I can never figure out all the different combinations of swim/run, bike/run, and changing the order and days. I have used on line coaching and been very successful. There is something about having a plan sent to me that tells me what I should be doing each day. To me it is like having a training partner, I don't want to disappoint the coach by not keeping up with the schedule. A good coach will devise a plan based on your age, fitness and ability that should prevent you from getting hurt and prepare you for race day.
2006-12-21 1:57 PM
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Subject: RE: Mike R and other coaches- convince why I need a coach rather than a plan
I think one of the other things to keep in mind is how much you want to read/learn about training theory and physiology. Your coach (hopefully) is going to be very well read and understand the theories behind training as well as having experience working with a variety of athletes. This blend of theoretical and practical experience should allow them to constantly evaluate your training plan and progression.

As a self-coached athlete, even if you are extremely well read and can objectively review your training, you still are missing the benefit of having seen it all put together many times over.

Shane
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