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2007-01-21 7:42 AM

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molto veloce mama
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Subject: method behind negative splits
i always start out too fast...and telling myself 'start out slower and then speed up' isn't enough. how do you achieve negative splits? is this something easily practiced on a treadmill where you can punch in the speed you want? (will have access to dreadmills fairly soon - lucky me).


2007-01-21 8:16 AM
in reply to: #662144

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Coach
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Subject: RE: method behind negative splits

When fit, I'll usually run the last 5-10% of a long run at either Tempo or FT and this had helped me to develop a good kick for races. You can also practice on interval sesssion by starting a 'x' pace and switching to higerh intensity towards the end. What's your goal, to leanr how to pace your efforts evenly?

2007-01-21 8:24 AM
in reply to: #662161

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molto veloce mama
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Subject: RE: method behind negative splits
yea. i always seem to have enough for a good kick at the end...and maybe i could have spread that energy out of the last half of the time for a better overall time. in training though, i always seem to start out too fast. recently managed negative splits on a run, not on purpose, and i felt great at the end. just wondering how you structure the run to achieve negative splits. start out at LSD pace, after 1-2 miles, ramp up to tempo or race pace from there?

i can pace pretty evenly...




but want to have a plan in training so that i can towards being able to up the effort at the end...not JUST for the kick. here is my one negative split run:



Edited by autumn 2007-01-21 8:27 AM
2007-01-21 8:40 AM
in reply to: #662144


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Subject: RE: method behind negative splits
Treadmills do the pacing for you, which can be very effective for getting efficient workouts, but which prevents you from developing your own pacing skills. Do some workouts, especially tempo runs, on a track or trail with half-mile markers so that you learn subjectively what X pace and Y pace feel like. We need objectove feedback to calibrate our subjective feelings of perceived exertion and speed.

Another thing that many athletes don't take into account is that X pace will feel harder and harder through the race. If you even-split a race, the effort is harder every mile than the last mile. So for even splits, you need to start at a pace that feels much easier than you could maintain for the full distance. If you "even-split" your effort, your speed will fall off dramatically over the course of the race.

Ken
2007-01-21 8:44 AM
in reply to: #662144

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Coach
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Subject: RE: method behind negative splits

For that you need to do Goal Pace (GP) runs. regardles of your distance goal determine what is and achievable goal for you to shoot for. I use the VDOT calculator by Daniels to learn at what paces to train at and then just structure my plan. Once I am done with my base training my running structure will look like this : 5x runs a week - 1 recovery run, 1 easy run, 1 long run (easy - marathon pace), 1 goal pace run (for me half marathon pace), 1 Functional Threahold (FT) run.

To learn how to evenly pace my races at Tris I usually do 'some' of my transition runs (bricks) at GP. i.e. since my goal is going to be the 70.3 series, then after a 2-3 hr ride I'll do a 20-40 min transition run as 20 min ez/20 min GP or 15 min GP/25 min ez, or 30 min GP or race rehearsals as 1-1-5 hrs at GP riding ans 30-50 min ar GP running.

2007-01-21 9:14 AM
in reply to: #662144

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Cycling Guru
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Subject: RE: method behind negative splits

It's better to do even splits than it is to negative split ......... If you negative split it typically means you went too easily in the beginning.

At least that's what Pfitzinger-Douglas say ......

(With that said I'll try to do the same as Jorge though and push the last few miles of a long run to use everything in the tank and force myself to maintain a faster pace).



2007-01-21 10:26 AM
in reply to: #662144

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Champion
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Subject: RE: method behind negative splits

My long runs are different this year in an effort to train so I can run faster when tired and also negative split. I'm training somewhat like I want to be able to race.

Yesterday's long run was 7.5 miles with first 3.4 aerobic zone then last 4.1 miles I try to run with my 5K HR. Yesterday I didn't do as good as I had a hard time focusing and my HR kept dropping as I wasn't working hard enough at end. I did keep my pace even through the whole run other than the mile that is all uphill....but keeping even pace gets harder and harder.  Two weeks ago, I did it better....started out with 9:45 miles, when I picked it up averaged 9:30 for two miles, then 9:23 and finished with a 9:08 mile.

My coach varies the length of my long runs but the last 4 miles are always at a harder pace.

It took a few times of doing the workout to even somewhat pace oaky and it hard work..I know where my miles. I'm cautiously optimistic this will help me race faster next summer.



Edited by KathyG 2007-01-21 10:27 AM
2007-01-21 10:44 AM
in reply to: #662144

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Extreme Veteran
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Subject: RE: method behind negative splits

On a related note:  what's the *goal* of a negative split anyway? Is the common wisdom that if you use a run strategy that results in a negative split then your overall time is likely to be better?  If so, that makes sense to me.  But if the expected result is the same overall time, but with the pacing distributed so that the last half is faster than the first I don't understand why the concept gets so much attention.

Thanks for the feedback - I've always felt like I was missing something here... 

2007-01-21 11:09 AM
in reply to: #662220

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Subject: RE: method behind negative splits
KathyG - 2007-01-21 9:26 AM

My coach varies the length of my long runs but the last 4 miles are always at a harder pace.

what does your coach say about it?  I mean you are paying him for this kind of advice after all.

Personally, I look more at HR then I do pace.  I shoot to keep my HR in a specific zone off the line and I have a plan of when and how much to bump it up.  For shorter (5k) races, that means high zone 3 until mile 2, then LT for the final mile.  Longer races, I shift down lower, depending on how long the race is.  The thing is, most times, I have a pacing stradegy besides start easy, finish hard.  If I know there is a section of long flat or downhill and a uphill at the end, I will push harder on the flats and downhill, because I know for the added effort, I will gain more ground over the flats and downhill then I would running up hill.  That would be a race that I positive split the time, but the overall time still would come out faster then if I negative split it.

2007-01-21 1:09 PM
in reply to: #662144

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Coach
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Subject: RE: method behind negative splits

IMO negative splits are just another way to vary training and practice certain things. During training negative split is a way to get an athlete out of the comfort zone to push a bit harder. (i.e. like running 4 intervals of 1 mile starting the first 2 at tempo and the next two at FT) Like Kathy mentioned, to do so at the end of long runs teaches you to push harder on tire legs. On swimming you hear the term descending with means swim the next set faster or negative split. I personally don't believe in negative splits for racing. I think that with proper training you should be able to go as hard as you can from the get go for the particular distance of the race and evenly pace your efforts (maybe slightly positive)

2007-01-21 1:12 PM
in reply to: #662252

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Cycling Guru
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Subject: RE: method behind negative splits

Ummmm, anything shorter than a 15k should all be above LT the entire race ....... sorry to tell you!

A half mary will be right above LT and a full mary should be run right at or below LT.  At least if you want to run to the best that your body can in a race.

It is a misconception that negative splitting is good.  Unless the course has a tailwind or is downhill there is no reason that you should have a negative split.  Once again, on a normal course, if you negative split it means you did not live up to your potential in the race and could have gone faster overall.



2007-01-21 1:18 PM
in reply to: #662252

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Coach
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Subject: RE: method behind negative splits
vortmax - 2007-01-21 11:09 AM
KathyG - 2007-01-21 9:26 AM

My coach varies the length of my long runs but the last 4 miles are always at a harder pace.

what does your coach say about it?  I mean you are paying him for this kind of advice after all.

Personally, I look more at HR then I do pace.  I shoot to keep my HR in a specific zone off the line and I have a plan of when and how much to bump it up.  For shorter (5k) races, that means high zone 3 until mile 2, then LT for the final mile.  Longer races, I shift down lower, depending on how long the race is.  The thing is, most times, I have a pacing stradegy besides start easy, finish hard.  If I know there is a section of long flat or downhill and a uphill at the end, I will push harder on the flats and downhill, because I know for the added effort, I will gain more ground over the flats and downhill then I would running up hill.  That would be a race that I positive split the time, but the overall time still would come out faster then if I negative split it.

Since HR can sometimes act funny for different reasons in particular when working at harder intensities for my own training and the guys I help I suggest when training easy or steady to gauge the effort by HR/RPE primarily and pace secondarily, but when training at tempo or FT I advice the opposite, to gauge effort by pace/RPE primarily and HR secondarily. Why? Well I think that when going slow the HR/RPE is a better way to keep us from pushing hard and when going fast using if we us pace/RPE allows us to push harder…
2007-01-21 3:00 PM
in reply to: #662252

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Champion
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Subject: RE: method behind negative splits
vortmax - 2007-01-21 12:09 PM
KathyG - 2007-01-21 9:26 AM

My coach varies the length of my long runs but the last 4 miles are always at a harder pace.

what does your coach say about it?  I mean you are paying him for this kind of advice after all.>>

Last season I didn't do great at keeping my run pace close to my stand alone 5K or 10K pace. So this season with another year of training, I'm doing different training in an effort to run faster in tris. I'm not sure about your question.

I'm learning to run faster when I'm tired which is more similar to tris than just going long and slow. I go by HR I used the word pace but my workout is to run by HR and for me normally higher HR means I run faster.  My HR can be whacky so I go by both HR and RPE as I can also tell a lot about my effort level by my breathing.

2007-01-22 9:43 AM
in reply to: #662144

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Subject: RE: method behind negative splits
I always negative split when I race. It's a small difference though, only a matter of seconds each mile. At a max, maybe 15 sec difference between first vs last mile pace in a long race. My body naturally loosens up during races (and yes I warm up, but without killing myself in warm up I could never get my body as loose as it gets during the race) and so I find a quicker pace is actually easier later in the race. Rather than burn myself out in the first mile or 2 trying to hit a pace my body isn't ready for, I let myself increase my speed a bit as I get going. For a long race I tend to neg split for the first couple of miles, then sit at my intended race pace in the middle, then speed up again for the last couple miles. Not only does this method work with your body as it gets into its rhythm, but the satisfaction you get from passing your competitors who started out too fast and are now slowing down gives you a huge mental boost to help you with that strong finish.

While I'm sure neg splitting doesn't work for everyone, if are going to try it just make sure you're not starting out too easy since you don't want to end up slower than if you do even splits. Make sure you practice what this feels like during training. And like Jorge said, even if you dont' want to race this way neg split WOs are great for getting you to go faster than you're used to and if you do enough a little faster, that will eventually become your new pace.

That said, my two favorite negative split workouts are:
1. Run a 5 miler - evenly drop your pace by 5 or 10 seconds each mile. We usually do this so that the last two miles are at goal pace then 10 secs faster, or 3rd at GP with last 2 miles faster than goal pace depending on current goals/distance training for/etc.
2. Intervals where each interval is a little faster than the previous one.
2007-01-22 9:55 AM
in reply to: #662345

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Giver
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Subject: RE: method behind negative splits
Daremo - 2007-01-21 2:12 PM

Ummmm, anything shorter than a 15k should all be above LT the entire race ....... sorry to tell you!

A half mary will be right above LT and a full mary should be run right at or below LT.  At least if you want to run to the best that your body can in a race.

It is a misconception that negative splitting is good.  Unless the course has a tailwind or is downhill there is no reason that you should have a negative split.  Once again, on a normal course, if you negative split it means you did not live up to your potential in the race and could have gone faster overall.

The world's best marathoners run 5-10 beats below LT, and they're only doing that for a bit over 2 hours. LT is a pace that you can sustain for about an hour.

2007-01-22 3:21 PM
in reply to: #663140

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Subject: RE: method behind negative splits
run4yrlif - 2007-01-22 9:55 AM

Daremo - 2007-01-21 2:12 PM

Ummmm, anything shorter than a 15k should all be above LT the entire race ....... sorry to tell you!

The world's best marathoners run 5-10 beats below LT, and they're only doing that for a bit over 2 hours. LT is a pace that you can sustain for about an hour.




Well if what Run4 your life says is true then I would not run a 10k at LT since my 10k time is greater than 1 hour. Distances you run at or near LT also depends on your pace if 1 hour rule is true.

I would think even splits would be more effecicent and therefore better for an edurance event.


2007-01-22 7:18 PM
in reply to: #662144

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Subject: RE: method behind negative splits

In my "best" running races (the ones which I did better than I expected and basically felt everything went about as well as expected) except for perhaps the last mile (I tend to have a strong kick at the end) was where the general trend was for me to have positive splits if anything.  I use the split after the mile (and I really do try to hold back though of course I'm not always good at that though that's not my biggest issue pacing-wise) as sort of a guide as to what I'd like the rest of them to roughly be.  Until I've run that first mile in the race, I don't feel that I personally have enough feel for how I'm feeling that day.  I then try to hold onto it unless it's far too fast for me.  I'll usually have some decline in the middle and then in what I consider a well-run race for me personally, I leave it all out there the last mile of the course, once I know I can finish and then I'm just going for the PR if it's in reach. 

When I train, I generally pick up the pace, if not in the last 10 minutes or earlier, then certainly the last 30 seconds or so as I want my body to understand that when I see the finish line, it's time to go as hard as possible (and I hate getting beaten at the end and love picking people off in the last .1 miles when many tend to give up).

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