Veggies! (Page 2)

Hi there, Cap'n!

You're right -- or at least partially right.  I personally have not mentioned dairy products as a source of protein because I think they are far inferior to plant-sourced proteins and, as such, eschew them entirely.  Because animal proteins, milk proteins included, have been shown to cause weaker bones and promote early-stage cancer cell growth, I simply can't bring myself to eat them in any form.  I choose instead to rely 100% on plant proteins (and plant carbohydrates and plant fats for that matter) for my cholesterol-free nutrition.  Being a non-dairy eater, I don't really feel qualified to comment on the "best" dairy products to eat, so I usually just avoid the topic entirely.

Ditto!!!

Hey, Stitch.  Thanks for joining in the discussion.  We are all entitled to our own opinions, of course, and your perspective is no doubt a valuable one. 

You may be surprised to learn that my outlook is very similar to yours; it's probably due to my own education and career in health science (call it a bias, if you will) that I'm right there with you in my reliance on evidence-based decision making.  As such, I am pleased to share with you some of the results of my recent Pubmed search below, which should provide some insight for you about the real differences between plant and animal proteins.  Being a "person of science," I'm sure you are very familiar with Pubmed so I will spare you its description. 

Please note that, though I tried my best to find information about vegan diets being "too low" in cholesterol, there seems to be a dearth of research supporting that assertion.  Most people well-versed in human physiology are aware that the body produces its own cholesterol and does not require any cholesterol through dietary intake.  In fact, if you do a little research, what you'll find is that the only literature linking cholesterol intake to degenerative diseases focuses on HIGH cholesterol.  I'll omit those search results because, though they are plentiful, they are also common sensical.

On plant vs. animal protein and osteoporosis:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?itool=abstractplus&db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=abstractplus&list_uids=11124760 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?itool=abstractplus&db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=abstractplus&list_uids=16088096

On the inefficacy of dairy product consumption in combatting osteoporosis:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?itool=abstractplus&db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=abstractplus&list_uids=12540414

On the effect of milk protein on cancer cell growth:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=9362383&query_hl=29&itool=pubmed_docsum

As there is an abundance of nutritional misinformation being shouted from North American rooftops, it's really up to each of us to assume responsibility for our own health and well-being.  In my humble OPINION, published scientific literature is a great place to start.  I hope that we can continue to have conversations like these where we discuss our research, our opinions, and our own life experiences with the simple goal of sharing information.  When the tone of our discourse becomes defensive and we start scolding one another, I worry that we are discouraging the very open and honest dialogue that many of us often enjoy here. 

Happy reading!

1) That science that supports your opinion being?

2) That was only the number 1 major finding of the largest study ever done on human nutrition that found over 8000 statistically significant links between diet and disease. A study lead by Dr. Colin Campbell who has written over 300 peer reviewed journal article and lead over 75 years of grant funded research on the links between cancer and nutrition. But really a man with that much experience who was chosen to lead such a huge study on nutrition isn't all that credible. Please define to me what you would consider credible.

The China Study has nothing to do with Peta.  He references over 700 independant studies in his book to prove his point.  He is not an animal rights guy.  He strictly deals with nutrition and what is optimum for humans.  PETA may latch on to his findings because they support their point of view.

He doesn't even say that you have to be 100% vegan.  He concedes in his book that small amount of animal protein will not harm you. 

Hey VeganMan! 

I think this is a great post, because it really reminds us to "consider the source" when looking at so-called "scientific" information.  Anyone can self-publish a book these days, claiming to be the latest expert on any topic under the sun.  I think we should be especially wary of information that comes from people whose bottom line benefits from our acceptance. (And really, what is science anyway if not dogma in its own right?)

Personally, I feel that TC Campbell's body of published literature makes a far stronger case for plant-based diets than PETA ever could.  As pervasive as it seems to be, I don't think that Ingrid Newkirk's sphere of influence extends to the American Journal of Medicine, the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, and the many other peer-reviewed journals where this type of research has been published.  As well, much of Campbell's lifelong research has been done on animals, a practice that PETA staunchly opposes.  PETA does employ some pretty sneaky methodology, but I think you're giving them far too much credit in this case.

Now I'll climb off my high horse and into a cage to protest these pro-vegan animal research projects...

Hi again Stitch,

I'm sorry you didn't find any of those articles helpful, and I'm surprised to see that you haven't offered any resources yourself.  I certainly agree that, when piping up to answer questions like those in the OP, we should be providing information to allow people to make informed decisions.  As I mentioned before, I whole-heartedly support taking responsibility for one's own health outcomes.

My comments regarding dairy products were a direct response to Cap'n's post.  I see now that you may have interpreted them as a personal attack, as you were the one that originally mentioned dairy products as a "good" vegetarian source of protein.  Please try to understand that, though I personally feel that dairy products are unfit for human consumption and as such choose not to consume them, I am not passing judgement on you or anyone else for choosing otherwise.  I am not here to argue or debate or create a combative environment where people feel the need to defend themselves, and I apologize if it seemed that way to you.

As an aside, I would like to gently point out that I too have interpreted your last few posts as defensive and pugnacious in tone, though it seems this was not your intention.  Though I do not want to further hijack this post, I do think it's important that we vegetable enthusiasts be aware of the somewhat militant reputation that precedes us and be extra careful to avoid coming off as such, as this attitude tends to leave prospective vegetarians feeling cold.

Very best of luck to you in your journey!

We have really digressed here --  I think it's time for me to graciously bow out of this thread.  Surely someone else has tips, advice, or personal experience to share with the OP!?

Edited to remove accidental double post -- oopsie! ;)

How does the new USDA pyramid disagree with any of your goals?  It has "meat and beans" instead of a meat group and for milk, it specifically says that if you don't drink milk, choose other calcium sources.  It's not like they encourage people to eat processed foods; they encourage whole grains and avoiding fats, oils, and excess sugar.  What about that is obsolete? 

I would say that it is obsolete because there is now a lot of research that is showing diets containing an amount greater then 10% animal protein increase the risk of heart disease, diabetes (type 2) and cancer significantly.

Dr. Dean Ornish has been able to reverse heart disease in all but 1 person that he has treated and been put on his strict low fat vegan diet.

Dr. Furhman has been able to take the majority of his patents with diabetes (type 2) off of their medication completely within a month of them following his vegan diet plans.

Dr. TC Campbell has been able to show in animal testing that he could not only control cancer growth by changing diet, but he could turn cancer growth on and off simply based on what he feed the animals. He could even give the rats on the low animal protein and veggie protein diets as much cancer causing chemicals as he could and not one of them would develop cancer while the group with greater then 10% animal protein were either dead or at a very late stage of cancer growth with low does of cancer causing agents.

He then had the chance leading the China Study (the largest study on human nutrition to date) to see if these results were consistent with his findings among human populations. He was able to find 8000 statistical significant links between diet and disease (greater the 90% probability). Even if half of those are wrong (which is statistically nearly impossible) he has for certain discovered over 4000 links between diet and disease which back up his studies on how harmful animal protein can be. He doesn't say that you have to be vegan, but that your consumption of animal protein should be quite small.

As per the findings of these 3 people listed above the pyramid is so far from optimum human nutrition that it is pretty much a joke. I mean they consider a glass of OJ a serving of fruit. The evidence that these people have in terms of current patients, and in research is absolutely astounding. Read The China Study. And as much as people think it is a big "be a vegan" book, Dr. Campbell even found in his studies that small amounts of animal protein made no difference, but the amount had to be small.

It should be said as well that you can eat a pretty crappy diet as a vegan. I know that I eat a lot of crap from time to time, so it's not like I'm saying become a vegan and you will feel amazing, you still have to eat a clean thoughtful diet.

Being vegan is the last thing that I wanted for my life. So much inconvenience on a daily level about what I eat and where I can eat and I was so far from being vegan when I changed my diet you have no idea. However given what I have read I cannot bring myself to eat meat or dairy or eggs when I know there is such strong evidence that suggests that if I eat that way it is not really if I get cancer but when.

1) To clarify I didn't say that being vegan was necessarily more healthy.  What has been put into context in the studies is a definition of what moderation is in regards to animal products and it is much less then people want to believe.  It is a very small amount of over all calorie intake and protein consumption.

2) All other Carnivorous species are very different from us.  One of the HUGE differences is the length of the intestinal tract.  In carnivores it is very short in order to get the meat in, process it and get it out ASAP before it starts to rot in their gut.  We are the only species that eat meat regularly that has such a long intestinal tract.

3) Humans are the only species on earth that consumes milk past infancy.  I don't think that there have been any studies on adults and breast milk that I know about so I have no idea what the long term health effects of human brest milk on humans would be.  However we drink the milk of another species of animal who's milk has a very specific purpose.  To make a CALF gain 400 pounds in a very short period of time and provide proper nutrition for a CALF.  No other animal drinks the milk of another species unless unusual circumstances are present.  Studies on how cow milk affect the body have shown to it promote cancer, leach calcium from your bones (top 5 dairy consuming countries have the 5 highest rates of osteoporosis) and drinking milk causes your body to have an immune response!  Your immune system does not like you drink milk and sees it as enough of a threat to have an immune response.  There are lots of other things about milk as well but I don't have the time to go into all of them right now.

4) OJ is pretty much just the sugar of the fruit.  You miss out on most of the fiber and vitamin C that an orange provides when you juice it.  When you juice it you take away so much of what makes it a good thing to eat and are left with a little bit of nutrients and sugar.  To call that the same as eating a fruit is ignorant on the part of who ever it is that makes these food guides. 

I would defiantly recommend that you read The China Study.  That book single handedly blew my mind.  It is so far from what people accept as common knowledge that it is hard to accept.  It actually made me so frustrated that this information exists and I really had to search to find it.  I really get the feeling that in life in general people don't want to accept truths that go against the status quo.  We constantly as a population try to manufacture information that fits our current lifestyle so we can feel better doing what we have always done.  Kinda like the guy at work who tells be the running is bad for my knees while he smokes.  People will try to find a reason not matter how small to resist change.  Not talking about you in particular, more just a generalization of what I see every day.