Gearing Debate...you decide!
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2007-06-12 9:42 AM |
Member 347 | Subject: Gearing Debate...you decide! Ok, I went for a ride today with another Triathlete on a 20 mile 18 mph average ride. Here is the debate. The other rider kept his gearing in the middle sprocket in the front (he had a triple) and a higher gear(smaller sprocket/gear) in the rear. I was riding with the largest gear in the front and a lower gear (larger sprocket/gear) in the rear. We we both riding at the same speed, I was not drafting. His cadence was higher. He is samller then me 5'9" @ 180 lbs, and I'm 6'2" @ 250 lbs. So here is the question. In the world of TRIATHLONS, not cycling, which is the more efficient set-up and prepares you for the run portion of a race. Just interested in everyone's opinion. Any input will be greatly appreciated. |
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2007-06-12 9:48 AM in reply to: #840518 |
Resident Curmudgeon 25290 The Road Back | Subject: RE: Gearing Debate...you decide! Everyone is different, but generally speaking the higher cadence will fatigue your legs less. Within reason, of course, with the 85-95RPM often thrown out there as the most efficient range. |
2007-06-12 9:52 AM in reply to: #840518 |
Master 1718 Loughborough, England | Subject: RE: Gearing Debate...you decide! What Bear said - but everyone is different. Why not experiment yourself - do an hours ride at a low cadence followed by a short run, then at a high cadence (same speed) followed by a short run. See which feels better for you. |
2007-06-12 10:03 AM in reply to: #840518 |
Extreme Veteran 790 Rocklin | Subject: Experiment I have been riding 2 years pretty steadily and ride with several "lifers," including several high level amateurs. Every single one of them stresses cadence as the key to solid cycling. They seem to ride effortlessly up hills and the cadence barely changes. Try this if you have some hills near you -- ride your course full speed, really push it and then ride one "smooth" (by smooth I mean solid cadence that stays the same using the gears to adjust to the changing terrain). I have done this many times and more often than not the smooth cadence is almost exactly the same or faster than the balls out approach. I'm hoping this practice really helps on the run (this is my third tri and first since becoming a avid cyclist). I'm 6'2/225, and we have a lot more weight to drag up the hills than little guys...gotta be efficient. Good luck, after 2 years I'm still learning on every ride. |
2007-06-12 10:09 AM in reply to: #840518 |
Pro 6582 Melbourne FL | Subject: RE: Gearing Debate...you decide! ajotto - 2007-06-12 10:42 AM Ok, I went for a ride today with another Triathlete on a 20 mile 18 mph average ride. Here is the debate. The other rider kept his gearing in the middle sprocket in the front (he had a triple) and a higher gear(smaller sprocket/gear) in the rear. I was riding with the largest gear in the front and a lower gear (larger sprocket/gear) in the rear. We we both riding at the same speed, I was not drafting. His cadence was higher. He is samller then me 5'9" @ 180 lbs, and I'm 6'2" @ 250 lbs. So here is the question. In the world of TRIATHLONS, not cycling, which is the more efficient set-up and prepares you for the run portion of a race. Just interested in everyone's opinion. Any input will be greatly appreciated. In the past year my average cadence after warm up has slowly increased to where I'm now comfortable at 95-100 rpms. Any idea what your cadence was? What about your co-rider's? Cadence function on a cyclometer is invaluable when starting out on the bike. For the longest time I was counting but when I got the tri-bike I made sure I had the function and it really has helped me. Here, read these articles too, knowing pedal cadence, how to start the run, and also run cadence help tie it all together:
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2007-06-12 10:17 AM in reply to: #840518 |
Member 347 | Subject: RE: Gearing Debate...you decide! Great input so far everyone. Really appreciate the insight and i will try all suggestions. Thanks again, AJ |
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2007-06-12 10:49 AM in reply to: #840518 |
Elite 4344 | Subject: RE: Gearing Debate...you decide! I think you said you were riding big gear in front to nearly biggest gear in back. If I read that correctly, then you have cross chained your gears. You might want to select a gear combo that keeps the chain straighter. A straighter chain is a little more efficient pedaling and causes less chain wear. Many of the gear combinations are nearly the same on a 2x10 bike. Picking the one that is straighter from front to back is the better choice. The other question is about cadence. Let's have a brief physics lesson. At a given speed the power to the bike is a constant. The power is equal to product of torque on the pedal (force of your feet at the end of the crank) and cadence. So if you pick a low cadence, your torque (force) has to go up. In general, the higher the force the more fast twitch muscle fibers are engaged. The fast twitch fibers fatique more quickly and are less efficient as well. So the usual suggestion for the run of the mill masher is to up the cadence (pick a lower gear) and pedal faster at lower force. Of course, there is an upper limit on cadence. The muscles have to switch on and off as you pedal. When you pedal too fast, some fibers are still tense when they should let off. Hence your muscles begin to work against themselves. You can improve on your pedaling coordination so that you can increase the cadence at which this happens but the genetics of your nervous system eventually limits you. Some of us are just not born to be sprinters. The moral to the story is pay attention to your effort level. Keep the cadence in the fast/comfortable range. If you have a cadence meter, this is going to be in the 85-90 range for most people. Try a couple of 20 mile rides with different gear combinations and see which is faster/more comfortable for you.
TW |
2007-06-12 12:04 PM in reply to: #840518 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: Gearing Debate...you decide! Great points, geezer. While I could never outwit you in physics, I want to point out that at a given speed for the same rider under the same conditions power is constant. Two riders of different weights and frontal surface area at the same speed will (likley) be producing different power outputs. (right? I hope) So you nned to focus on what is best for you and experiment as the others have said. Learn to express your gear ration as number of teeth in front chainring x rear cog (e.g. 53x17), that will let you compare your gear selection to others. While your buddies gear selection was different, it's possible the ratio ended up being the same...somebody else can jump in at this point. |
2007-06-12 1:21 PM in reply to: #840924 |
Resident Curmudgeon 25290 The Road Back | Subject: RE: Gearing Debate...you decide! AdventureBear - 2007-06-12 12:04 PM Learn to express your gear ration as number of teeth in front chainring x rear cog (e.g. 53x17), that will let you compare your gear selection to others. Gear ratio is normally expressed as the teeth in front chainring ÷ (not x) those in the rear cog. In your example, the 53-17 combination results in a gear ratio of 53÷17=3.12, which (I think) means for every revolution of the pedals you turn the rear wheel 3.12 times. Gear ratio is seldom used in bicycling discussions, usually the diameter of the wheel is factored in to arrive at a measurement called gear inches, or in metric countries, meters development. Others factor in the crankarm length to calculate a gain ratio. Here's Sheldon Brown to explain it all: |
2007-06-12 2:29 PM in reply to: #840518 |
Elite 2608 Denver, Colorado | Subject: RE: Gearing Debate...you decide! I'm your buddy's height but closer to your weight at 220-225. I tend to be a masher because I have fairly strong legs. But what TechGeezer said is right - mashing uses the fast twitch fibers which fatigue quickly. I've been able to break myself of the mashing habit by, as Bear likes to say, riding lots (or at least lots more than I have been) because at 20 miles and beyond, the fast twitch fibers will have been spent and you'll need to rely on your slow twitch fibers. My cadence is around 85, which is still on the low end of the efficient range. I don't have a cadence meter; I just count how many times my leg comes up in 10 seconds, then multiply by 6. I still like to mash up hills, though. Edited by MikeTheBear 2007-06-12 2:30 PM |
2007-06-12 3:18 PM in reply to: #840518 |
Member 70 | Subject: RE: Gearing Debate...you decide! So... If you've trained for 1500 miles at a 70-75 cadense, then you go out and try to do the same avg speed at 90-95 cadence, I suspect it'll kill ya. I've heard an argument for mixing it up on training rides. Sometimes, push a gear ratio that is way too big for comfort, and sometimes way too fast for comfort. The theory is that the rest of the time you will start building to your fasted plus biggest gear ratio. |
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2007-06-14 8:50 AM in reply to: #840518 |
Member 347 | Subject: RE: Gearing Debate...you decide! Really appreciate all of the input. I tried monitoring my cadence and i was surprised to find it pretty stable in the high 80's to low 90's. For me, I seemed to be more comfortable in the larger ring up front and a lower gear in the rear. I tried a few variations. Is there any advantage to pedaling in the larger ring vs. the middle ring (I ride a triple). I am going to start training with more of an effort on higher cadence. The opinons posted were knowledgeable and is part of the reason why this site is so valuable. Thanks again... |
2007-06-14 9:06 AM in reply to: #840518 |
Cycling Guru 15134 Fulton, MD | Subject: RE: Gearing Debate...you decide! This is a bit of a generalization but in most cases it is the scenario ..... New riders = low cadence/too high of a gear Experienced rdiers = higher cadence/lower gearing I'm personally a spinner. I've always had a high cadence. In my race this past weekend I was always well over 100 rpms which makes it seem almost effortless to me. When I start to fatigue I go down a gear. As Bear mentioned it is also a matter of the gearing available. I tend to run close ratio gearing (11-21 on my race wheels) so each shift is only a small adjustment. If you are running a more spaced cassette (like an 11 - 25 or 27) then some shifts will jump two or three teeth in difference as opposed to the one tooth difference in the "tighter" cassette. This will have a bigger effect on your ability to hold the higher cadence. |
2007-06-14 10:12 AM in reply to: #843924 |
Pro 6582 Melbourne FL | Subject: RE: Gearing Debate...you decide! When I had a triple RB I rode mostly in the middle ring unless the speed went high enough. On the Tri-bike I ride evenly between the small ring & big ring to prevent excessive chain crossover. Daremo has a great point, know your gears! Being I'm in FL (FL stands for FLat where I'm at) I ride a 12-23 10-spd cassette. One gear change between the 12 & 19 tooth cogs for me is ~ 5-7 rpms. Below is something I had in Excel when I was trying to figure out which cassette I should change to when I first had the triple RB with 8spd, it came with the 12-25 and I changed to a 12-21, having consecutive 12-17 really helped me out.
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2007-06-14 11:45 AM in reply to: #844094 |
Resident Curmudgeon 25290 The Road Back | Subject: RE: Gearing Debate...you decide! Donto - 2007-06-14 10:12 AM When I had a triple RB I rode mostly in the middle ring unless the speed went high enough. On the Tri-bike I ride evenly between the small ring & big ring to prevent excessive chain crossover. Daremo has a great point, know your gears! Being I'm in FL (FL stands for FLat where I'm at) I ride a 12-23 10-spd cassette. One gear change between the 12 & 19 tooth cogs for me is ~ 5-7 rpms. Below is something I had in Excel when I was trying to figure out which cassette I should change to when I first had the triple RB with 8spd, it came with the 12-25 and I changed to a 12-21, having consecutive 12-17 really helped me out. Having your chart might be a good opportunity to point out a couple things about shift patterns to the newbies out there.
What you end up with is a crossover system, where you stay on one chainring through a speed range, and shift to the next chainring (and a higher speed range) only when you reach the top of that initial range. Using Don's chart with his 12-21 cassette, I've eliminated the "impractical" gears so that you can see his 24-speed bike really only has 17 practical speeds:
I've also added (per Sheldon Brown) the speeds you will be travelling while pedalling 90rpm. So, generally speaking, on Don's bike he will remain on the middle chainring at speeds between 15.6 and 22.7 mph, which is where most of us spend the bulk of our training time, especially on relatively flat courses. |
2007-06-14 12:11 PM in reply to: #844323 |
Extreme Veteran 732 Omaha, USA | Subject: RE: Gearing Debate...you decide! the bear - 2007-06-14 11:45 AM Having your chart might be a good opportunity to point out a couple things about shift patterns to the newbies out there.
What you end up with is a crossover system, where you stay on one chainring through a speed range, and shift to the next chainring (and a higher speed range) only when you reach the top of that initial range. Using Don's chart with his 12-21 cassette, I've eliminated the "impractical" gears so that you can see his 24-speed bike really only has 17 practical speeds: (per Sheldon Brown) the speeds you will be travelling while pedalling 90rpm. So, generally speaking, on Don's bike he will remain on the middle chainring at speeds between 15.6 and 22.7 mph, which is where most of us spend the bulk of our training time, especially on relatively flat courses. How do you calculate gear drive and what does it mean? |
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2007-06-14 1:04 PM in reply to: #844385 |
Resident Curmudgeon 25290 The Road Back | Subject: RE: Gearing Debate...you decide! VeganMan - 2007-06-14 12:11 PM How do you calculate gear drive and what does it mean? Not sure where Don got the term "gear drive" but it's actually "gear ratio," ot the number of teeth on the chainring divided by the number of teeth on the rear cog. |
2007-06-14 1:53 PM in reply to: #844500 |
Pro 6582 Melbourne FL | Subject: RE: Gearing Debate...you decide! the bear - 2007-06-14 2:04 PM VeganMan - 2007-06-14 12:11 PM How do you calculate gear drive and what does it mean? Not sure where Don got the term "gear drive" but it's actually "gear ratio," ot the number of teeth on the chainring divided by the number of teeth on the rear cog. I made it up so I sound like I know what I'm talking about If I turn the crank once, I drive the rear gear x. |