General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Need help w/ gel/hydration needed for marathon/mary trng Rss Feed  
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2007-08-26 10:37 AM

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Master
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Salisbury, North Carolina
Subject: Need help w/ gel/hydration needed for marathon/mary trng
Starting to get further into marathon trng and wodering if I'm gelling/drinking too little or too much.

Had a 14 miler this morning and consumed the following:

4 Powergels X 110 cal + 100 sport beans + 240 Powerade + 48 oz h2o.

Total cals = 780.
Total h2o/Powerade = 80 oz.

Outside temp 78
Run was 14 miles/2:36/ 11:14 min per mile
avg heart rate 151
43 yr old male
weight = 182.
felt pretty good at the end

Pardon the honesty here, pee is medium yellow.... probably should be lighter.

My gut feeling is I had plenty of calories but maybe could have had a little more h2o.

Any input would be appreciated.( yes, I know everyone is different and if you feel ok you're probably ok )

Don't want to leave a lot to chance for trng and a race this long.


Edited by tri42 2007-08-26 10:53 AM


2007-08-31 9:18 AM
in reply to: #940553

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Need help w/ gel/hydration needed for marathon/mary trng
I would think that would be more than enough fuel for the full mary on that plan. Maybe, like you said, a little more water but not much. I think that is something you will play by ear when your running past an aid station during the race

Your plan appears to be gel or fuel every 30min and you were fueling on average every 31:27 (just used gel and sport beans not powerade, 11.233*14=157.262min/5=31.452).

If you eat before hand you should have more than enough fuel in to cary you through the full race.

Edited by JChristoff 2007-08-31 9:20 AM
2007-09-02 9:23 AM
in reply to: #940553

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Subject: RE: Need help w/ gel/hydration needed for marathon/mary trng
IMHO, you are overdoing what you take in. That is a without all the facts.
You list your weight, but not height. If you are somewhat overweight AND you have a goal of losing some LBS, this is one of the first places to start. I know many runners that talk about how they cannot lose weight and do similar things to what you do. This might not be the case with you. If you are happy at your weight and this amount of food and liquid does not have a negative efect on you (it would make me puke or walk a ton), then more power to you.

Bottom line is that you just do not need that type of calorie intake for 2 hours of working out. Many would do that without anything but water. I am not sure that is ideal either, but just making a point.
The marketing side of sports nutrition companies have changed the landscape. Now all kinds of causal fitness folks think they NEED a gatorade during or after a 30 minute run in 60 degree weather.

Hammer Nutrition recommends like 250-280 calories per hour, 2-3 electrolyte caps per hour and 20-25 oz fluid per hour. Keep in mind that they sell this stuff, so it is logical to think they might be on the high side of the best recommendations. Other fall close to these recommendations. Hammer and others say nothing but water if under 1 hour. Their point of view is that your body just cannot process or use any more than that and it just causes issues. You body turns off or slows down some functions during long sports and its ability to take in food is one of them.

Based on those numbers, you are a a little high in calories and quite a bit high in hydration. The color of your pee after a 2+ hour race is not exactly what is meant by the color test. The color guides are for day to day hydration. You are going to be darker after a long run no matter what you do . . . as I said your body stops doing things in the same way.

I would try to cut back to their recommendations and see how you do. I have a gut feeling you would speed up a hair. If I ate and drank that much I know it would slow me down . . . just too much in me.
2007-09-02 12:07 PM
in reply to: #940553

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Subject: RE: Need help w/ gel/hydration needed for marathon/mary trng
I know there are some very knowledable people on this site, and hopefully they'll chime in. I would suggest seeking out the opinion and advice of veterans, people that have experienced it all. I spend way too much time in my local running shop just sitting talking to the staff (they are comprised of men and women who have finished multiple Ironmans, a pro triathlete who was the 7th woman across the line at IMLP, Boston qualifiers) all around knowledgable people. Seek out local people like that, they're usually willing to share their experience and insight. Tell them you're goal and training regiment and i'm sure they can help you dial in nutrition.
And, yes I agree that some sports nutrition companies make it seem like you can train or race without their product, or if you dont take it post workout you wont be ableto move in the morning. Plenty of people get by on natural foods and not scientifically created super foods.
2007-09-02 4:32 PM
in reply to: #940553

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Subject: RE: Need help w/ gel/hydration needed for marathon/mary trng
Everybody is different in their overall needs, so the way you feel during and after a 14 mile run can tell you a lot. The general rule of thumb is 0.5g (2 calories) per pound of body weight per hour carbs. Your ability to digest that will also depend on how hard you're running, so experimenting with your tolerance at different heart rates (effort levels) will tell you what works best for you. Most people will need about 700-800 mg total sodium per hour, but that varies wildly from one person to the next. For example, I have to take in 1000 per hour when I'm at my max sweat rate and some people I know need up to 2000 per hour. I use Thermalytes to supplement, but there are lots of products on the market, some with much greater sodium content per cap so that you don't have to take so darned many pills if your sodium needs are high. Just add up the sodium you took in today from the gels, sports drink, etc. and gauge whether that was effective. You'll know if it's not right because you'll start feeling your muscles become less responsive to your mental commands and at worst, you'll start cramping up. The only way to know what your hydration needs are is to test it out at different effort levels, temperature and humidity conditions. If you keep a good log of your sweat rate as you train, you'll know what you need from one day to the next. For example, in the heat and humidity of the Austin summer, I'll need about 34-40 ounces water per hour. When I'm running or riding in the cooler winter months, that drops down to closer to 24 ounces per hour and sodium needs drop somewhat proportionately as well. Here's an article that tells you how to calculate your sweat rate:

http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,7120,s6-242-302--10084-0,00.h...
2007-09-04 9:43 PM
in reply to: #940553

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Subject: RE: Need help w/ gel/hydration needed for marathon/mary trng

Definitely agree with what everyone else on here has said.

My thoughts are that I was very surprised by the amount of gelling you did on this run, but that is because when I do my long training runs, I tend to only take a couple of gels.  I usually try to run at least 9 miles before my first gel and then add another gel every 5 miles or so.  The most number of gels I've ever taken on a training run was 3.

Every now and then I'll leave my gels at home for a really long run just to force myself to push through the tiredness.   I figure if I can run a solid pace w/o gels in training runs, just think how much better I can do in a race with the aid of gels or other race nutrition.

I've come to this training regiment for me through a lot of trial and error in training for the 4 Half Marathons, last year's Disney Marathon and my current training for the Marine Corp. Marathon.

Have you ever tried to run longer distances w/o gels?  You may want to at least establish a "baseline" and then you can tell when a gel will provide you benefit compared with the "guidelines" on the outside of the package. 

Plus, I always remain skeptical about how much a manufacturer tells us to use their product as they have a vested interest in you taking more gels then you need as they'll sell more of their product to you. 

My 2 cents is that the answer lies somewhere in trial and error and the expert advice of people much more experienced then myself.  Good luck. 



2007-09-05 12:27 PM
in reply to: #940553

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Subject: RE: Need help w/ gel/hydration needed for marathon/mary trng
Here is another point of view or thought. I hope it does not come off insulting, it is not meant to be.

I have been a group leader for a big half marathon training program in the past. This is an organized program (costs money) that attracts more than 100 people every Wednesday night. There are groups for all paces.

I have lead or filled in lead for anywhere from 7:30 min/mile pace to 11 and have paid attention to all the groups.

The slower (and often less experienced) the group, the more they take and use sports fuels during the run.

I see 11 minute folks loading up with gels and drinks for a 90-120 minute run. I almost never see a 7 or 8 minute runner taking anything for a run of similar time length. They setup the schedule so that most runners are out for the same amount of time . . . faster groups do more miles.

To me, that has to say something. Possibly that experienced folks have run enough to know what works or that n00bs are very influenced by marketing.
2007-09-10 8:20 PM
in reply to: #952758

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Master
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Subject: RE: Need help w/ gel/hydration needed for marathon/mary trng
indygreg - 2007-09-05 1:27 PM
Here is another point of view or thought. I hope it does not come off insulting, it is not meant to be.


Absolutely not taken that way at all. Thanks a million for all this input ! I am new to this longer distance running thing and I want to learn as much as possible the easier way, instead of the hard way, which has been my m.o. before.

I'll post some feedback as I have a 17 miler coming up this week.

Plan on cutting back on gel and hydration/experimenting some.

Oh, I'm 5'8" and honestly have no business not being 170-172 lbs. right now, so yes I want to and actually need to drop a little weight.... 7-10 lbs.
2007-09-10 8:54 PM
in reply to: #940553

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Subject: RE: Need help w/ gel/hydration needed for marathon/mary trng
I have found that losing weight and doing endurance type stuff is very hard combination.
You do not want to totally cut sports nutrition out, it just has to be part of the overall strategy.

#1 priority to me is recovery fuel. I think that is the area that lives up to the hype.
The key is to make sure to account for these calories. An endurox or choc milk can drop 300 calories in your system in about 10 seconds. That is good, just remember there are no free calories.

I would see if you could do a bit less in the during fuel, but make sure to take care of hydration and electrolytes. It will be a mental crutch at first, but see if you can work through it. Try to really evaluate how you feel the next 2 days compared to before. If you are really flat, then keep the higher amount of fuel in your run, just watch dinner that night, etc.

I say all of this as someone who lost about 40lbs then started distance running and then later tris' . . . and have struggled getting the last 15-20 lbs off.
For me, I have found I do better with watching during run fuel, but never skipping the recovery drink when the workout is over 1 hour or especially hard (intervals).
2007-09-10 9:43 PM
in reply to: #940553

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Subject: RE: Need help w/ gel/hydration needed for marathon/mary trng

Have you done a sweat test?

I'd recommend doing that to make sure you are hydrating properly. Then do the math of how much you need to drink and the calories you are consuming to drink. The starting point most folks aim for is 270 cal/hour but that is tough for most folks running. Average sweat has 500 mg sodium in 16 oz of sweat.

I do the math after each of my long runs to make sure  hydrate properly, take in the right amount of calories and the right amount of sodium. Unless you know how much you sweat you won't know if you are doing a good job.

I sweat a lot and aim to drink 48 oz/hour..and have learned to do so..then I take Lava Salts as an electrolyte  every 30' and gels 1 every 30'. I add Nuuns to my water which add more electrolytes.  My goal is to drink about 48 oz an hour, take in just over 1000 mg of sodium and as close to 270 calories an hour I can....but that is what works for me. I do all my long runs like that as I'm practicing my HIM nutrition.

From my quick look; it appears you are taking in 312 cal/hour which is a little high which potentially your carb concentration % to high in your stomach which in time can effect stomach emptying and give you problems.



Edited by KathyG 2007-09-10 9:44 PM
2007-09-16 5:17 PM
in reply to: #959285

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Master
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Salisbury, North Carolina
Subject: RE: Need help w/ gel/hydration needed for marathon/mary trng
1) Yep, need to do a sweat test.

2) How about this; I cut back on calories for this 16 miler:

2 hrs 55 min/ 16 miles
temp = 58 deg
calories taken in: 3 gels X 110 = 330 + 1 NV granola bar 180 = 510 calories total
h2o = 48 oz.

No breakfast before hand. Had Powerade about 20 mins after.

Felt ok at the end... very slow LSD run.... avg'd around 10:45/mile w/ 8 min run/2 min walk format.

So I ended up w/ 3 gels and total cals of 170/hr + 48 oz H2O.

Would appreciate some feedback on this run too. Thanks again !


Edited by tri42 2007-09-16 5:21 PM


2007-09-18 11:54 AM
in reply to: #966809

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Master
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Subject: RE: Need help w/ gel/hydration needed for marathon/mary trng
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