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Kicking vs. Running Speed
OptionResults
Good kicker, Good runner4 Votes - [6.35%]
Moderate kicker, Good runner5 Votes - [7.94%]
Horrible kicker, Good runner14 Votes - [22.22%]
Good kicker, Moderate runner5 Votes - [7.94%]
Moderate kicker, Moderate runner6 Votes - [9.52%]
Horrible kicker, Moderate runner13 Votes - [20.63%]
Good kicker, not-so-good runner6 Votes - [9.52%]
Moderate kicker, not-so-good runner6 Votes - [9.52%]
Horrible kicker, not-so-good runner4 Votes - [6.35%]

2007-10-20 2:34 PM

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Supersonicus Idioticus
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Subject: Kicking vs. Running Speed
I'm trying to do a rough correlation between kicking (in the pool) and running speed.

Please help me with your opinions.


2007-10-20 8:31 PM
in reply to: #1016986

Champion
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No excuses!
Subject: RE: Kicking vs. Running Speed
Horrific kicker in the pool, you might as well throw an anchor on top of me and send me to the bottom of the pool when I try kicking

OK runner, times are definately slower than before but that is a changing
2007-10-20 8:38 PM
in reply to: #1016986

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Extreme Veteran
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Subject: RE: Kicking vs. Running Speed
Well, kicking and running are two completely different activities. Swimming doesn't put the impact on your legs that running does, and running doesn't require your hips to overcome the viscosity of water. To be a good triathlete you should be a good kicker and a good runner.

Wait, are you talking about cadence?
2007-10-20 10:36 PM
in reply to: #1017220

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Pro
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Subject: RE: Kicking vs. Running Speed
Cheetah - 2007-10-20 8:38 PM

Well, kicking and running are two completely different activities. Swimming doesn't put the impact on your legs that running does, and running doesn't require your hips to overcome the viscosity of water. To be a good triathlete you should be a good kicker and a good runner.

Wait, are you talking about cadence?


Looks like he's just trying to get a feel for if there's a correlation between the two or if they're unrelated. I was reading in that NY Times article about running economy and it mentioned a lady who won a gold in the olympics in swimming and how her VO2 max was very low for olympic-caliber athletes and was average for average athletes, but her swimming efficiency used such little energy that it didn't matter.
2007-10-20 11:12 PM
in reply to: #1016986

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Master
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Flagstaff and Phoenix, AZ
Subject: RE: Kicking vs. Running Speed
I hardly kick at all during long-distance swims. I use a light kick more as a rudder than for propulsion. I'm too lazy to do kick drills too. They only tire my legs on my days off from run/bike training...

Am I alone with that attitude?

Now, I AM a lousy runner compared to swimming. Should I kick more to improve my running??? I've figured I might just run more to get better at it.

2007-10-21 6:27 AM
in reply to: #1017331

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Master
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Subject: RE: Kicking vs. Running Speed
SauseEnte - 2007-10-21 12:12 AM

I hardly kick at all during long-distance swims. I use a light kick more as a rudder than for propulsion. I'm too lazy to do kick drills too. They only tire my legs on my days off from run/bike training...

Am I alone with that attitude?

Now, I AM a lousy runner compared to swimming. Should I kick more to improve my running??? I've figured I might just run more to get better at it.



x2 (Sause, this may be the second time I've x2 you in the past week)

I don't kick much either, my feet flutter around but I normally save my legs for the rest of the race or other workouts as I don't find kicking to give me enough speed for the amount of energy it cost., and with the way I swim my legs stay up in the water anyways so it's not like there dangling down and creating drag.

I do tend to kick more within two to three hundred yards from the beach in a race to get the blood moving better in my legs, which seems to help when I get back on land, that or it's been my increased OWS this past year that's helped in that regard.

Edited by rottieguy 2007-10-21 6:28 AM


2007-10-21 12:29 PM
in reply to: #1016986

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Master
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Subject: RE: Kicking vs. Running Speed

During my initial TI learn-to-swim time, my coaches told us to save our legs for the rest of the tri so to kick minimally. Then, I had a coach who said that if I could learn to kick well and do hard/fast sets in the pool, then my kicking better will over the long swims will help me go faster.

It makes sense to me as I try to get faster in each discipline by improving my training in each discipline.

2007-10-21 2:01 PM
in reply to: #1016986

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Expert
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Alexandria, NH
Subject: RE: Kicking vs. Running Speed
I only kick enough to keep me level in the swim.
2007-10-21 2:07 PM
in reply to: #1017546

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Master
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Flagstaff and Phoenix, AZ
Subject: RE: Kicking vs. Running Speed
marina - 2007-10-21 10:29 AM

During my initial TI learn-to-swim time, my coaches told us to save our legs for the rest of the tri so to kick minimally. Then, I had a coach who said that if I could learn to kick well and do hard/fast sets in the pool, then my kicking better will over the long swims will help me go faster.

It makes sense to me as I try to get faster in each discipline by improving my training in each discipline.



Yes, but you can run!
2007-10-21 2:14 PM
in reply to: #1016986

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Extreme Veteran
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Subject: RE: Kicking vs. Running Speed
I don't think running and kicking correlate at all. I'm a decent runner (not great), but my kick is very strong. One of my friends is a state-level cross country runner (the kind who puts in about 500 miles over the summer...) and yet his kick is horrible in the pool.
Now the whip-kick and running, that makes alot more sense.
2007-10-21 2:58 PM
in reply to: #1016986

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Melon Presser
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Subject: RE: Kicking vs. Running Speed

Greg, I think the correlation as the poll/question is framed isn't possible. However, you might be going for what Cheetah pointed out: cadence.

I'm not sure how average cadences reflect on each other across the disciplines, but many articles I've read on race execution suggest that at the end of the swim, you put in a bit more kick to get your legs warmed up for the run to transition and the bike, and at the end of the bike, you begin spinning to set your legs up for a good run cadence (~90 rpm).

I'm pretty sure that my end-swim kick cadence, cycle cadence, and run cadence are very similar.



2007-10-21 8:50 PM
in reply to: #1016986

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Expert
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Subject: RE: Kicking vs. Running Speed
No kick, decent runner...

My legs twitch just enough to keep me afloat, but I wouldn't call it a kick.
2007-10-21 9:44 PM
in reply to: #1016986

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Supersonicus Idioticus
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Thunder Bay, ON
Subject: RE: Kicking vs. Running Speed
TriAya, I'm just trying to satisfy my distaste for kicking.

Especially how I took 10-15min off my 10k time one summer and did not improve my kick time by 1sec/50m.

I do a 200m kick in the olympic sized pool in 3min 40s... while others on my team can probably do it in 2:50.
2007-10-22 12:15 AM
in reply to: #1017966

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Melon Presser
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Subject: RE: Kicking vs. Running Speed

So Fresh So Clean - 2007-10-21 8:44 PM TriAya, I'm just trying to satisfy my distaste for kicking. Especially how I took 10-15min off my 10k time one summer and did not improve my kick time by 1sec/50m. I do a 200m kick in the olympic sized pool in 3min 40s... while others on my team can probably do it in 2:50.

Well, Greg (sorry for a bit of a hijack) ... given that you're an extraordinary swimmer and it looks like a pretty damned good runner too, may just be it's not worth your time to focus much on the kick, especially if you plan to do more multisport. If your legs keep you afloat, you're doing great.

2007-10-22 10:50 AM
in reply to: #1016986

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Expert
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Subject: RE: Kicking vs. Running Speed

No kick- Can't run

I have to talk myself into kicking while I swim.  It just doesn't feel natural.  I can swim though my strongest event. I suck on the run, but working on it.   It  would be great to just suck a little bit less on the run each year.

2007-10-22 11:49 AM
in reply to: #1016986

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Kicking vs. Running Speed
I put moderate kick, good run. I've also been running basically my entire life, swimming not so much. I think thats the correlation right there...


2007-10-22 12:08 PM
in reply to: #1016986

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Master
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Subject: RE: Kicking vs. Running Speed
Ryan Hall does some kick drills in a pool! :p
2007-10-22 3:19 PM
in reply to: #1016986

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Veteran
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Subject: RE: Kicking vs. Running Speed
I'm the slowest kicker in my masters group of about 18, but the second fastest swimmer. Even the people averaging 2:30/100m out kick me. I'm also the fastest runner of the group by far (18 min 5K, etc.) so for me there is absolutely no correlation between kicking and running...well, maybe an inverse correlation.
2007-10-22 3:54 PM
in reply to: #1016986

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Cycling Guru
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Subject: RE: Kicking vs. Running Speed
Beyond horrible kicker in the water.  Passable speed for a runner.
2007-10-22 4:04 PM
in reply to: #1016986

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Expert
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Subject: RE: Kicking vs. Running Speed

I put down horrible kicker and moderate runner.  I'm a self-taught swimmer trying to rectify the hitch in my swim giddy-up.  I have good flexible ankles/feet but body-position needs work - tend to compensate with flailing my foot out to take breaths.

I've run a 1:40 half and 3:47 full marathon and conjure-up a 6:30 mile.  Not a speed demon, but at about the front of the MOP on my runs.

2007-10-22 4:10 PM
in reply to: #1017966

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Expert
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Subject: RE: Kicking vs. Running Speed

So Fresh So Clean - 2007-10-21 10:44 PM TriAya, I'm just trying to satisfy my distaste for kicking. Especially how I took 10-15min off my 10k time one summer and did not improve my kick time by 1sec/50m. I do a 200m kick in the olympic sized pool in 3min 40s... while others on my team can probably do it in 2:50.

I don't think I've ever been able to complete 100m kicking.



2007-10-23 6:47 PM
in reply to: #1019201


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Subject: RE: Kicking vs. Running Speed
Hi, Folks.
One of the first things I teach triathletes is a 2 beat kick. You don't have to have a great kick to swim well, or fast. It mostly helps to have that good kick to use as a weapon when you need it - end of a race, go around a pack, etc. But with a 2 beat kick, you use it for timing & to facilitate core body rotation, if that's how you swim... Kicking is one of the most misunderstood elements of swimming. Everyone kicks, but understanding how the kick FITS in the whole stroke is lost on most teachers & coaches. Having said that, I can't remember anyone who couldn't learn to develop a "servicable" kick with a little patience & practice! That includes hard-core runners with inflexible ankles who go backward when they kick...
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