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2008-04-03 9:12 AM
in reply to: #1098972

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Subject: RE: Ridgelake's Group - Filled up with Fantastic Folks!
Hello Ridge and group,
I was wondering if you could clarify the appropriate use uf gels and gel type supplements. I hear some take them before and during a sprint length type race. Some take them every 30 minutes of longer races. Some say don't take them at all and you'll burn more fat and your body will adapt. Very cunfusing.

As I understand things your body burns carbs at first. When you have burned those up (about 2 or so hours later) your body switches gears and starts burning fat. With my reserves I should be able to go quite a long time before I run out of that fuel so by what I know I shouldn't really use them but they are still recommended to me. Very confusing.

Any thoughts or insight would be greatly appreciated.
Scott


2008-04-03 12:41 PM
in reply to: #1312858

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Subject: RE: Ridgelake's Group - Filled up with Fantastic Folks!
Hi Scott. Apologies in advance for the long posts. Hope they are helpful though...

This nutrition / when to eat / what to eat topic has been the most confusing one for me, and I have read a lot about this to date. I will sum up what I understand, and have found, but I am in no way an expert, and may not even be entirely correct, so anyone reading this, please feel free to correct me....

From what I have read, it seems that if you have 'fully recharged your body', ie: had sufficient carbs/protein/calories to meet what your body needs to maintain itself (your resting metabolic rate, which is usually somewhere around 1500 calories per day + calories burned with additional workouts, etc.), you body will maintain a store of energy of approximately 2000 calories. This store of energy equates to approximately 2 hours of exercise give or take...

Additionally, your body will start turning fat into energy as you workout and burn calories. The rate that this happens depends on your metabolism, and can be trained to work more effectively depending how you workout (through the slower type training as Ridge has been talking about)

Now the difficulty is that your body cannot switch fat to carbs quickly enough to sustain the level of energy required to go at a competative rate in a race. And for non-trained athletes, the rate can be very slow to a point of causing your muscles to have no energy, and you hit the 'wall'.

So, you will require some energy supplements to sustain high levels of exertion (upper levels of heartrate) . That is why you will see that if you are exercising over 2 hours, you should start to take gels. For heavy exertion (running at your upper heart rate levels) you will burn approximately 1000 calories per hour, and will need to make sure you are getting at least that amount to sustain that level of exertion. Now, one thing I have read is that even athletes most efficient at turning food->energy can only do a max of 60% of their total energy in the time required. (ie: if they burn 1000 calories per hour, they can only recharge with 600 calories per hour from food regardless of how many calories they consume). And too much in your stomach can cause cramping, etc. So there is a fine balance for each athlete.

With respect to workout nutrition: One thing that I read that I think is important to remember is that eating before/during normal workouts is not for that workout, but for the next workout... ie: when you workout, you are training your body / tearing muscles / with the intention of them repairing in a stonger and better way. If you are not getting proper nutrition pre, during and post workout then you are effectively damaging muscle, but not providing the energy for your body to repair it properly, meaning that it will take longer, or not be as effective, and thus will adversly affect your next workout.

This post is really long already... so I am going to continue in another posting with my actual results of trying some of this stuff.....

Brad
2008-04-03 12:54 PM
in reply to: #1312858

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Subject: RE: Ridgelake's Group - Filled up with Fantastic Folks!
Ok, so now some practicle things I have learned....

I was having a heck of a time maintaining energy during my workouts, and read a ton of stuff (thanks Ridge for the great links you provided, btw), and was confused by a lot of the seeming contradictory info as well.

Here is what I have found to work:

Most of my workouts are less than 2 hours, and so as per literature, I do not technically need extra calories to finish, but have found that I have had a hard time in the past repeating a 2 hour workout the next day.

What works great for me is this:

Approximately 2-2.5 hours prior to a long workout I will consume ~100-150 calories depending on how intensive I plan to work out. Generally this is in the form of something easily digestible (half of a Gatorade is typical). (Also, I have found that it is important for me not to eat anything hard to digest within the 2 hours prior to working out or I will have trouble with the workout.) I will work out for an hour, then consume the remaining half of the Gatorade. Post workout, I will have something to eat immediately afterwards containing protein and calories, usually around 300 calories or so. Also, I have found that if I do weights I seem to need more to eat post workout or I will feel energy depleted the next day...

I have found that by doing this, I can do the exact same workout day after day if I wanted to. (Although I generally mix up the 3 disciplines just to make it interesting, ie: Swim/Run one day, Bike/Run the next, or whatever.)

I find gatorade or any sort of fruit juice (or even a bowl of fresh fruit, yoghurt, etc.) works fine. I have never tried the sports gels, but I am sure they would probably work just as well, think they are really about the 'form factor' more than anything else... ie: less weight to carry while running a triathalon...

Hope this helps.
Brad
2008-04-03 6:02 PM
in reply to: #1098972

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Subject: RE: Ridgelake's Group - Filled up with Fantastic Folks!
This is all really good. Thank you. Most of my workouts are getting into the hour ot two range so I appreciate the advice. Something else you mentioned is nutrition in general. This is definately a weak point for me and something I need to work on.
Scott
2008-04-03 11:03 PM
in reply to: #1098972

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Subject: RE: Ridgelake's Group - Filled up with Fantastic Folks!
I have been digesting all of this and I was wondering if you could give me an example of proper use during a three hour race (of which I have 1 coming up) When do you start using the gels, how much etc since I will be well over the 2 hour threshold. Also 1 other question is that if I continue to lengthen my workouts will push out that 2 hour threshold or is it pretty well set?
2008-04-04 7:48 AM
in reply to: #1098972

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Subject: RE: Ridgelake's Group - Filled up with Fantastic Folks!

Fueling for workouts is definitely a hugely complex subject.  Its one that I know even coaches and elites discuss/debate over whats optimal.

Brad identified many of the important elements as I understand them.

The body preferentially uses fat as fuel as low intensities.  As intensity increases, it uses more and more carbs for fuel.  Shortly after passing the aerobic threshold (lactate threshold), the body uses almost entirely carbs for fuel.

Exercising vigourously burns between 500 to 800 calories per hour.  The body, if well fueled, can store about 2000 carb calories.   So we can go at fairly high intensities for maybe 3 hours.  This again assumes we are well fueled, which is no given.   Once the body burns up its available carbs, we face whats known as "bonking", or "hitting the wall".

So how do we fuel?  My understanding is that food takes a good couple of hours to digest, enter the blood stream, and get processed as useable fuel for exercise.  Thats why you hear the suggestion to eat 2-3 hours before an exercise session.  Going off memory, gel shots and gatorade take about an hour to get into the system.

One thing that complicates fueling during exercise is that bloodflow to the muscles is blood thats not available for digestion.  Or vice versa.  Ingesting food while exercising intensely will cause the food to just sit in the stomach.  This can cause cramping, bloating, and other problems.   Even liquid absorbsion can be compromised if exercising too intensely.    These topic leads to a lot of trial and error for people doing HIM and IM races.  Everyone is different.  It takes a lot of testing to figure out just how intensely an individual can exercise and still take in nutrition.  Usually on the bike.

Post exercise nutrition is an entirely different matter.  After working out, the body is especially receptive to taking in food and processing it.   Getting in a good balance of carbs and proteins within 30 to 60 minutes of working out is a huge help to recovering from that workout and getting the body ready to go again the next day. 

Earlier in this thread at the top of page 3, I posted a link to an article by Hammer Nutrition talking about nutrition and exercise.  It does have a lot of sales and marketing for their products, but the science behind it is pretty good.  Ignore the marketing BS and focus on the science.  Its a good read and talks about all of these subjects in a lot more detail.



Edited by Ridgelake 2008-04-04 7:49 AM


2008-04-04 8:32 AM
in reply to: #1098972

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Subject: RE: Ridgelake's Group - Filled up with Fantastic Folks!
Hello Folks! I am back from camping and ready to race on Sunday. I don't think that camping and hiking is the best thing to do the week before the race, but I hope it didn't hurt me too much. I plan to get in a short jog today, but I don't think that the weather will allow me to get in any riding before the DU.

Ridge, you asked what our goals are for April. My original plan (back in January) was to just go back to bike riding after my duathlon. I don't think that I will continue racing, but I do plan to continue running and biking. I will be traveling a lot in April, but some of my travels will include bike riding. I don't have any specific number of miles planned this month, but I would like to have more bike miles than last month, and at least the same number of jogging miles. I would like to build up some running miles to see if I continue to like it. After this month, I will decide if I want to keep running in my program just for balance, or if I want to pursue longer distances.

2008-04-05 11:32 AM
in reply to: #1098972

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Subject: RE: Ridgelake's Group - Filled up with Fantastic Folks!
Good luck tomorrow Cole!!! Have fun and smile big
2008-04-05 1:30 PM
in reply to: #1315133

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Subject: RE: Ridgelake's Group - Filled up with Fantastic Folks!
Have a great race Cole and husband! Enjoy every aspect of the day. Be sure to give us a report. We got all the snow your husband has been praying for
Joann
2008-04-05 4:32 PM
in reply to: #1098972

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Subject: RE: Ridgelake's Group - Filled up with Fantastic Folks!
Have fun tomorrow, Cole!!!
2008-04-06 10:16 AM
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Subject: RE: Ridgelake's Group - Filled up with Fantastic Folks!
Thank you so much for the encouragement! We did not get snow , and it stopped raining about 25 minutes before the race started. The transition area was the grass infield of a track. It was very difficult to get in and out of quickly, plus there was standing water and mud everywhere. We did not finish last! We thanked every volunteer we saw. I did not have to stop and walk (except once to tie my shoe). That was our main goal when we started training....to make it through the run without stopping. Overall, we felt our race was a success. Our youngest son came with us to cheer us on. Someone gave him a cow bell to ring, so everytime we came into transition he would ring the cow bell for us. That was kind of fun. One family competed as a relay team...the 9 year old ran the first leg, the mom rode the bike, and the 6 year old ran the last leg. The 9 year old got ahead of me, but I was able to beat the 6 year old at the end. I will post my times on my log when I get the final results.

Thanks again,
Cole


2008-04-06 4:20 PM
in reply to: #1318693

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Subject: RE: Ridgelake's Group - Filled up with Fantastic Folks!
WTG Cole!  Hope you guys had a wonderful time!!!!
2008-04-06 10:03 PM
in reply to: #1318693

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Subject: RE: Ridgelake's Group - Filled up with Fantastic Folks!
Great job on the race Cole. Way to beat that 6 year old!
Did your hubby like it?
J
2008-04-06 11:29 PM
in reply to: #1098972

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Subject: RE: Ridgelake's Group - Filled up with Fantastic Folks!
Sounds like you had a lot of fun Cole. Congrats!
2008-04-07 9:04 AM
in reply to: #1319894

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Subject: RE: Ridgelake's Group - Filled up with Fantastic Folks!
Jo, My husband and I had fun. He was really happy with the way they staggered the start so that you never felt like you were last or alone. There was only one other male who looked like they were carying any extra weight. The long course for this event (we did the super sprint) was a Regional Championship and a World Qualifying event. There were a lot of (understandably) uptight people around who wanted to WIN. With the staggered start, the guys started 3 minutes ahead of the women, so there were always people around him. I passed him, but he kept me in sight most of the time. He passed some people on the bike section. I had the volunteers relay messages to him, and that was fun. There weren't that many people who seemed to be having a good time. The family doing the relay were having the best time, and I enjoyed talking with their kids a lot. We enjoyed the training more than the event itself, but if we found another event that had a little lighter more fun atmosphere, we would certainly do it again. We are very glad that we went and participated.

BTW, my husband finished 60 out of 69 men. Considering that he is carrying about 25-30 extra pounds, and he had a heart attack 4 years ago, We were happy with that result.
2008-04-07 9:59 AM
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Subject: RE: Ridgelake's Group - Filled up with Fantastic Folks!
Way to have a good time. I don't ever want to be one of those people who don't smile or have fun with this sport. The kids do put a fun twist on it. Nice job Cole and hubby. Way to go & not be last!!!


2008-04-07 10:32 PM
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Subject: RE: Ridgelake's Group - Filled up with Fantastic Folks!
Hi Ridge and group.
I was just wondering...I think this group is supposed to end the end of march but I really dont want it too. It seems some people have faded away but I am really enjoying everyone. Is the group ending or do we just go until there is no one left?
Scott
2008-04-08 7:50 AM
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Subject: RE: Ridgelake's Group - Filled up with Fantastic Folks!
WTG Cole!
2008-04-08 7:53 AM
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Subject: RE: Ridgelake's Group - Filled up with Fantastic Folks!
Hi All,

My apologies for being away for a few weeks. Strep throat got the best of me for 2 weeks (I didn't work out a single day) and I'm pretty sure I had some sort of flu simultaneously. Once the strep was gone, I still had some serious stuffinesss.

My goals for April:

1. Get back on track with my training regiment. I've got 14 weeks to my first event so there should be plenty of time.
2. Hone the TI drills to the point that I can begin meaningful full stroke swimming in may, 10 weeks prior to my event.

Those are what I have!

BunnyT
2008-04-08 9:47 AM
in reply to: #1322578

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Subject: RE: Ridgelake's Group - Filled up with Fantastic Folks!

Scott, good question.

I justed looked through the guidelines posted by Ron.  His suggestion is to go through March/April.  I have no problem at all going through April and even beyond.  But even if this group technically ends, we still have the friendship and comraderie we've established.  Thats whats great about the friends list on the individual blogs.  We can easily keep in touch with one another that way.

2008-04-11 10:17 PM
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Subject: RE: Ridgelake's Group - Filled up with Fantastic Folks!
Hello group,
I wanted to share something I have been monkeying with on my bike that has made a huge difference in how I ride. I have been exploring gear ratios to see if I can find a good combination for my strength and weaknesses. I started out with a 39 small gear and a 51 big gear up front and a 12-25 cassette in back. The first change was to go from a 51 to a 53 up front. This seemed like a good change because it allowed me to push more on the slight grades and biggger hills for longer and go faster without "spinning out" I also like how it split the difference between the small and big gears. I feel like I have more of a high and low range of gears instead of two ratios that were pretty close. Then today I changed the rear cassette from a 12-25 to a 11-26. This will make the lower gears lower and the upper end higher. I haven't had sufficient time to try it out (tomorrow I will) but I am hoping that it will spread out the gears a little so that each one will have more of a range instead of changing gears and not being able to tell. We'll see but I wanted to share this with you as it has helped me learn a lot and might make a little difference in my ability to perform better. I also kept all of my old gearing in case something doesn't work out. Have a great weekend.
Scott


2008-04-13 11:14 PM
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Subject: RE: Ridgelake's Group - Filled up with Fantastic Folks!
Hello Ridge and group,
Well just another question. Since I have picked up training lately my appetite has gone through the roof. Any ideas? I am trying to eat higher protein etc and it doesn't seem to help. I did a brick yesterday and have been eating ever since and I am still hungry. Is this normal? Well any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Until Then I will be eating cheese sticks, almonds, milk etc
Scott
2008-04-14 7:45 AM
in reply to: #1335208

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Subject: RE: Ridgelake's Group - Filled up with Fantastic Folks!

Your experience is most definitely normal.  When the activity level picks up, so does teh appetite.  For me, it tends to happen when I pick up my biking miles.  But it can happen with any exercise.

Its basically your body's way of saying it wants more energy.  So give it to it!  Just try to make it quality foods.  Your fruits, veggies, lean meats, nuts, whole grains, etc.    The bottom line is to listen to your body.  It will tell you if it needs more energy.  Or not.

2008-04-14 11:52 AM
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Subject: RE: Ridgelake's Group - Filled up with Fantastic Folks!
Scott, my appetite definitely increases with my activity level. There are times in my training that I can't seem to stay full. The more miles I put in, the worse the hunger. I agree with Ridge, to listen to your body and make good food choices. I eat like a teenager (which is a lot ) when I'm putting in lots of miles, but my weight stays consistent. As long as you are only eating when you are hungry, you should be fine. Just be warned...the grocery bill will go up.
2008-04-14 6:12 PM
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Subject: RE: Ridgelake's Group - Filled up with Fantastic Folks!
Hey, all. I made it back alive from Vegas. About a month ago I was freaking out about doing an Olympic distance for my first full event ever, so I decide to do the sprint distance and that was probably the best decision I have ever made to date. I knew I would not get an open water swim before the event and I have a new wetsuit, both baaaad things especially in the first event of the season. I also was not super comfortable with a 6 mile run, so I did the sprint on from what every participant, seasoned and newbie said. That this was probably the hardes course I will ever do. The swim was on a windy ake in white caps. I made it the first buoy ok, but as soon as I drank a wave, I could not catch my breath in the 60 degree water. I did every stroke possible chanting "you cannot die in a wetsuit: you cannot die in a wetsuit....".
The bike is officially my favorite sport and I rocked 12 mile in 30 minutes.. oh yeah!!
The run was up hill from transition into the dusty desert with two huge hills, one of which I walked mostly because I was so dry. The wind and dust was choking and only one water station made it saaad . The last couple miles was okay but hard to keep a pace since it was on sidewalks. But, overall my run was what my run usually is.

Good race, really hard and I wish I could have kept my cool in the swim. There weren't enough porta potties at the start of the course, so I wasted alot of time during transition. But I met my goal of keeping my time in the 1:30 range (1:38) so overall tons of fun. Great experience and I did not die in my wetsuit!!
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