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2008-01-23 2:49 PM
in reply to: #1172208

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Subject: RE: IF YOU OWN A HOME...
tupuppy - 2008-01-23 2:53 PM

Great.  Now, how many of those Refi’s included a DEBT FREEDOM plan?  Or, how many of them came with the education to make it the Last lone and not just the next one?



I don’t know. All clients have a financial plan created for them. This includes short term and long term financial goals and desires and how to attain them.

 

Again, Refi and free up money for a family.  Great.  They take that money, go get themselves into debt again, and refi again a few years later.  By doing that, the consumer barely gets any principle knocked off the load before refi’ing again and paying the lender interest upon interest.



Most people follow the guidance and grow financially. Others get in over their head and never pay principal down. I am sure all options are put on the table and the consumer decides what they want to do with their credit and money.

 

Congrats to your wife on that volume of loans.  But if some of those refi families are called back in the next 3-5 years to refi again because of rate rate rate, then I take a serious issue with keeping families debt and not educating them on the concept that it is possible to get and stay debt free.



Rate has a lot to do with it but in the end that is the business. If you are a lender you want to do as much volume as possible and create a revolving door of business and clients. The idea of owning a home outright is over in the USA. I completely agree with you about not keeping people in debt but I know of several people who are well equipped to purchase a home outright (one has won powerball) and their CPA’s all tell them to leverage their property.

 

Countywide DOWN, not to take out the rest or make them change their ways.

P.S. by successful do you mean, in order to reap the profits of making interest for a few years, refi-ing them and making more interest and keeping a consumer in that never ending loop?



I disagree with you here. Most people would not have the lifestyle they have without shorter interest only loans. Yes some people do not use them correctly or as they were intended when created. But in my experience and from conversations with others in the mortgage industry education AND communication is what makes most lenders sucessful.


Are you a mortgage lender? Or do you have a reverse mortgage? (J/K) The points you make are all great but they all seem negative towards the mortgage industry. I agree with education of the clients but as you know (if you are a lender) not all clients want to listen.

I am in the property and casualty insurance industry and 75%+ of my clients are all bottom line driven. Most times they skimp on coverage and I have to make them sign a waiver as proof I explained to them exactly what they were doing when they cut out certain coverage’s. All they want is the best deal each year.



2008-01-23 2:49 PM
in reply to: #1172301

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COURT JESTER
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Subject: RE: IF YOU OWN A HOME...

mr2tony - 2008-01-23 1:38 PM  Shouldn't it be up to the consumer to do his or her homework? I mean, if you buy a car from a secondary seller and it falls apart, then too bad for you. People should be smart enough to do their own research before taking the advice of a lender who's getting paid to offer these loans. I mean, really, when we bought our houses we did a TON of homework. The realtor said `Oh yeah, property values in this neighborhood or building are definitely rising.' Well it doesn't take much to figure out if that's true or not. I have a little debt -- more than I did a year ago because of credit cards, and I blame only myself. The credit card company didn't tell me to go spend money, I did it on my own. Just the same -- these lenders are making an offer to borrow, not forcing people to do it. That's why I get so angry when I hear those `Have $25,000 in credit card debt? It's not YOUR fault. The credit card companies are FORCING you into debt.' Bullsh*t.

 

Tony, you are correct.  If someone is in debt it is the sole responsibility of that person.  I agree with you 100%.

 

Now, try on these shoes.  You get a mortgage and are told it is a 5% fixed rate (note rate).  You are not shown (read:  Not Full Disclosure) that due to expenses and fees the Annual Percentage Rate is actually 6.5%.  Therefore without knowing it you are paying 6.5% on a loan instead of the 5% you thought you had and are bragging to your friends about.  On top of that, your payment is, saayyyy, $800 a month.  Yet you are not informed (not fully disclosed) that your loan is actually negative amortization where the actually payment need to cover the interest is $900 a month.  So you’re not even paying all the interest each month and that extra $100/month is being tacked onto the Principle and interest is being compounded on that added Principle every month.  Yet, you are happy because you have that fixed rate.  After, let us say, 5 years, you go to refi and the Principle amount on the loan is more than you started and more than the house is worth.

 

Tell me, how would you feel the person who gave you that loan? 

 

Legalized stealing isn’t it?

 

It is crap like that in the industry that ticks me off.  Like I said, Countrywide down and more to follow.

 

2008-01-23 2:53 PM
in reply to: #1172301

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Bluffton, SC
Subject: RE: IF YOU OWN A HOME...
mr2tony - 2008-01-23 3:38 PM


Shouldn't it be up to the consumer to do his or her homework? I mean, if you buy a car from a secondary seller and it falls apart, then too bad for you.

People should be smart enough to do their own research before taking the advice of a lender who's getting paid to offer these loans. I mean, really, when we bought our houses we did a TON of homework. The realtor said `Oh yeah, property values in this neighborhood or building are definitely rising.' Well it doesn't take much to figure out if that's true or not.

I have a little debt -- more than I did a year ago because of credit cards, and I blame only myself. The credit card company didn't tell me to go spend money, I did it on my own. Just the same -- these lenders are making an offer to borrow, not forcing people to do it. That's why I get so angry when I hear those `Have $25,000 in credit card debt? It's not YOUR fault. The credit card companies are FORCING you into debt.' Bullsh*t.


2X
2008-01-23 2:54 PM
in reply to: #1172326

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Subject: RE: IF YOU OWN A HOME...
tupuppy - 2008-01-23 2:49 PM

mr2tony - 2008-01-23 1:38 PM  Shouldn't it be up to the consumer to do his or her homework? I mean, if you buy a car from a secondary seller and it falls apart, then too bad for you. People should be smart enough to do their own research before taking the advice of a lender who's getting paid to offer these loans. I mean, really, when we bought our houses we did a TON of homework. The realtor said `Oh yeah, property values in this neighborhood or building are definitely rising.' Well it doesn't take much to figure out if that's true or not. I have a little debt -- more than I did a year ago because of credit cards, and I blame only myself. The credit card company didn't tell me to go spend money, I did it on my own. Just the same -- these lenders are making an offer to borrow, not forcing people to do it. That's why I get so angry when I hear those `Have $25,000 in credit card debt? It's not YOUR fault. The credit card companies are FORCING you into debt.' Bullsh*t.

 

Tony, you are correct.  If someone is in debt it is the sole responsibility of that person.  I agree with you 100%.

 

Now, try on these shoes.  You get a mortgage and are told it is a 5% fixed rate (note rate).  You are not shown (read:  Not Full Disclosure) that due to expenses and fees the Annual Percentage Rate is actually 6.5%.  Therefore without knowing it you are paying 6.5% on a loan instead of the 5% you thought you had and are bragging to your friends about.  On top of that, your payment is, saayyyy, $800 a month.  Yet you are not informed (not fully disclosed) that your loan is actually negative amortization where the actually payment need to cover the interest is $900 a month.  So you’re not even paying all the interest each month and that extra $100/month is being tacked onto the Principle and interest is being compounded on that added Principle every month.  Yet, you are happy because you have that fixed rate.  After, let us say, 5 years, you go to refi and the Principle amount on the loan is more than you started and more than the house is worth.

 

Tell me, how would you feel the person who gave you that loan? 

 

Legalized stealing isn’t it?

 

It is crap like that in the industry that ticks me off.  Like I said, Countrywide down and more to follow.

 



That's why I had a real estate lawyer look over everything to ensure it was on the up and up. I hope he knows what he was doing. He did save me like $1500 right off the bat when the seller tried to say they weren't going to pay for certain improvements that were required according to city code before selling.
2008-01-23 3:00 PM
in reply to: #1172326

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Bluffton, SC
Subject: RE: IF YOU OWN A HOME...
tupuppy - 2008-01-23 3:49 PM

<

 

Tony, you are correct.  If someone is in debt it is the sole responsibility of that person.  I agree with you 100%.

 

Now, try on these shoes.  You get a mortgage and are told it is a 5% fixed rate (note rate).  You are not shown (read:  Not Full Disclosure) that due to expenses and fees the Annual Percentage Rate is actually 6.5%.  Therefore without knowing it you are paying 6.5% on a loan instead of the 5% you thought you had and are bragging to your friends about.  On top of that, your payment is, saayyyy, $800 a month.  Yet you are not informed (not fully disclosed) that your loan is actually negative amortization where the actually payment need to cover the interest is $900 a month.  So you’re not even paying all the interest each month and that extra $100/month is being tacked onto the Principle and interest is being compounded on that added Principle every month.  Yet, you are happy because you have that fixed rate.  After, let us say, 5 years, you go to refi and the Principle amount on the loan is more than you started and more than the house is worth.

 

Tell me, how would you feel the person who gave you that loan? 

 

Legalized stealing isn’t it?

 

It is crap like that in the industry that ticks me off.  Like I said, Countrywide down and more to follow.

 



I agree with your example and in the end it is the lender who should be responsible for not explaining this to the client but again most clients who want this type of product are the ones who won’t listen.... They are highly complex loans that the client needs to be fully educated on.

Edit speeeeling

Edited by AUSQuest 2008-01-23 3:07 PM
2008-01-23 3:19 PM
in reply to: #1172214

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Elite
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Subject: RE: IF YOU OWN A HOME...
tupuppy - 2008-01-23 1:59 PM

Here is another lovely of the mortgage industry:  Yield Spread Premium

If a client qualifies at, for example, 5% and the mortgage broker gets that client to sign off on a 6% loan by obviously not telling the client about the 5% and letting them know they qualified at 6%, the mortgage broker is paid more for duping the client and selling a higher interest loan.

http://www.thetruthaboutmortgage.com/mortgage-dictionary/yield-spread-premium/

You trying to just stir the pot Ty?  I make a living on yield spread premium.  Banks make revenue on it too--but they don't have to disclose it like I do as a broker.  This is attention grabbing headline stuff.  If YSP goes away so do brokers and BOOM, banks are the only source for mortgages, and accordingly, there is less market competition and the consumer loses out.  Guess what lobby is pushing to eliminate YSP?  BANKS.

Just like any other business, the more you sell something for the more money you make.  My gross revenue is disclosed at the time of signing applications and again at closing.  How is this so bad?  For those of you who are curious, look at the HUD1 settlement statement from your last mortgage.  If you used a mortgage broker, line 808 will show what their gross revenue was.  If you used a bank, you won't see anything.  You won't see me making a ton of money on any one deal.  No home runs here, just lots of singles.  Not many other businesses disclose their revenue to the end user.

This can benefit the end user.   Just locked a few million in free refi's.  (I wish it was $21mm!!!).  How do I provide a free refi?  I use the yield spread premium to pay for the costs (appraisal, title insurance, etc.).  You take away YSP, and there goes the ability to provide tangible benefit to the consumer.

The refi's I'm doing today are dropping rates between .375% and 1%, every single one a 30 year fixed mortgage with no prepayment penalty.

No time to dig through and discuss the minutia this afternoon, gotta call some more people to save them money and make a little for myself too! 



2008-01-23 3:36 PM
in reply to: #1172420

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COURT JESTER
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ROCKFORD, IL
Subject: RE: IF YOU OWN A HOME...
PeterAK - 2008-01-23 2:19 PM
tupuppy - 2008-01-23 1:59 PM

Here is another lovely of the mortgage industry:  Yield Spread Premium

If a client qualifies at, for example, 5% and the mortgage broker gets that client to sign off on a 6% loan by obviously not telling the client about the 5% and letting them know they qualified at 6%, the mortgage broker is paid more for duping the client and selling a higher interest loan.

http://www.thetruthaboutmortgage.com/mortgage-dictionary/yield-spread-premium/

You trying to just stir the pot Ty?  I make a living on yield spread premium.  Banks make revenue on it too--but they don't have to disclose it like I do as a broker.  This is attention grabbing headline stuff.  If YSP goes away so do brokers and BOOM, banks are the only source for mortgages, and accordingly, there is less market competition and the consumer loses out.  Guess what lobby is pushing to eliminate YSP?  BANKS.

Just like any other business, the more you sell something for the more money you make.  My gross revenue is disclosed at the time of signing applications and again at closing.  How is this so bad?  For those of you who are curious, look at the HUD1 settlement statement from your last mortgage.  If you used a mortgage broker, line 808 will show what their gross revenue was.  If you used a bank, you won't see anything.  You won't see me making a ton of money on any one deal.  No home runs here, just lots of singles.  Not many other businesses disclose their revenue to the end user.

This can benefit the end user.   Just locked a few million in free refi's.  (I wish it was $21mm!!!).  How do I provide a free refi?  I use the yield spread premium to pay for the costs (appraisal, title insurance, etc.).  You take away YSP, and there goes the ability to provide tangible benefit to the consumer.

The refi's I'm doing today are dropping rates between .375% and 1%, every single one a 30 year fixed mortgage with no prepayment penalty.

No time to dig through and discuss the minutia this afternoon, gotta call some more people to save them money and make a little for myself too! 

No intention of stirring the pot.  Just making the effort to educate people that it is not all about rate.  There are other things to consider.  People should know about Simple vs Scheduled interest.  People should know their true cost of doing business, APR, and that it is most likely going to be higher than the rate they think they are paying.  People should know that when there is a line item change in the payment schedule that something in the mortgage contract has changed (for ours it was something as simple as the PMI was automatically dropped).    

 

I do take (and would take) issue at qualifying for a 5% loan, not being told so, and being sold a higher rate loan.  It’s money out of my pocket and money out of the consumer’s pocket.

 

I have no issue with someone making a profit off me or anyone else.  Just don’t lie to me or hide things from me to make it.

 

It’s the other things, like Negative Amortization, Pick A Payment, Interest Only stuff that people are sold, without being told what it actually is and instead just being told they payment is within their range and it’s a fixed rate….That gets me ticked off as I assume, as a professional in the industry, it ticks you off too.

 

2008-01-23 3:36 PM
in reply to: #1172056

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Subject: RE: IF YOU OWN A HOME...
If everybody's refinancing then that means in a couple weeks I should see more business as a result! Thanks for the encouragement!

And Tony; I think you were looking for the words "caveat emptor" - let the buyer beware.
2008-01-23 4:01 PM
in reply to: #1172226

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Subject: RE: IF YOU OWN A HOME...
ScottoNM - 2008-01-23 12:02 PM
madkat - 2008-01-23 12:36 PM

It's pretty low here right now. We're mainly looking in the Sonoma County, CA, area and it's really taken a hit over the last year and a half. The median house price around here has dropped over 100k in the last year, with houses sitting on the market for an average of 6 months.

 

The condo across the way from us was on the market for 2 years, and they finally sold it last week. We watched it drop from $450k to $375k, and I'll bet you the people in there paid even less than that. There are pre-foreclosure signs up all over around here, so I believe people who are in a bad way are very motivated to sell their property, even at a loss.

But... it can only go back up in the future. There will never be enough houses for all the people who want to live here, which is what has driven the real estate boom of the last 10 years.

Yes, it might go a bit lower over the next couple of months, but I think it's pretty close to the bottom.

Sounds like you guys are taking a smart apprach - google yielded an interesting recent article about the house market in Sonoma

http://www1.pressdemocrat.com/article/20080117/NEWS/801170374/0/BUSINESS01

Some unusually frank language from RE professionals in this article:

"Job growth isn't that strong. Job creation has a direct impact on housing demand and that feeds into prices," said David Berson, chief economist for PMI Mortgage Insurance, of Walnut Creek. "There's just an overall lack of housing demand. The inventories are just way too high."
...[His company predicts that:] Home prices face a 58 percent chance of falling in Sonoma County in two years, up from a 38 percent chance just three months ago.

"The ability to negotiate now is probably as good as I've ever seen it. You're not competing with everybody. You're not competing with a lot of investors, though I expect them to start coming back," he [Brian Connell, broker-manager for Frank Howard Allen Realtors in Santa Rosa] said. "But it's also possible that we may have another year of grinding through it and the market doesn't level out until 2009."

My thoughts: When a realtor accidentally slips and predicts two years until the bottom, that appears to me to be a sign to wait for the blood to flow for a while.

Sounds like you are in a great position being renters with cash in the bank. Best of luck to you.

 

We are in a very good place.  Or rather, E is.  I'm still paying off stupid debt, but should be done by the end of the year.  

Yeah, there isn't a lot of job growth here, but lots and lots and lots of people commute to San Francisco.  I was one of them until recently, and may have to be one of them again in the future.

We're in no hurry to buy.  We have a super fantastic unbelievably low rent right now.  Much lower than any mortgage we could get, even on this same place.  I think our landlord bought just before the housing boom, and his mortgage has to be super low to keep us at this amt per month.  Of course, I'm not going to let him know that other units in this same complex are renting out at nearly $1000 more a month. 

2008-01-23 4:46 PM
in reply to: #1172463

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Subject: RE: IF YOU OWN A HOME...
tupuppy - 2008-01-23 4:36 PM

  How do I provide a free refi?  I use the yield spread premium to pay for the costs (appraisal, title insurance, etc.).  You take away YSP, and there goes the ability to provide tangible benefit to the consumer.


No, You have enough volume and pay that yourself .... that how they do it. and yes they do refinance 30 year fixed also.
2008-01-23 6:15 PM
in reply to: #1172626

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Subject: RE: IF YOU OWN A HOME...

 

Huh?  I think you are suggesting that the lender pays the costs our of other revenue.  The only revenue mortgage brokers have is from either 1) yield spread premium or 2) points.  That's it!



Edited by PeterAK 2008-01-23 6:16 PM


2008-01-23 11:09 PM
in reply to: #1172056

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Master
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Flagstaff and Phoenix, AZ
Subject: RE: IF YOU OWN A HOME...
Bump. Can I ask for advice on a related question?

I'm in a comfy position with my house, 30-fixed (simple interest ) at 5.75% (but I'd have to look up the APR...), value of house doubled in the last 5 years, market is pretty flat here, not falling (yet) like in the rest of AZ. So, I have plenty of "safe" equity, even if the market does end up going down.

I inherited some money last year which is sitting in a CD right now but will need to be invested in a couple of months. I'm thinking about buying a second home (condo) down the hill in Phoenix/Scottsdale. I know it's not the best "investment" unless I rent it but I figure it's more fun than just more money in retirement accounts. I'm already saving plenty through work. (I don't have kids, live a pretty cheap lifestyle, and have no other debt to pay off.)

So, there are two options to buy the condo:

1. Inheritance plus matching amount from refinancing the house with cash out (which would still leave me with more than 20% equity in the house): I would owe more on the house but own the condo debt-free.

2. Inheritance plus a new 15-year loan on the condo (which I could handle just fine since my income is a higher now than when I financed the house and I have a very secure job): I would owe some on both places.

Option 2. made sense just a few weeks ago but now I'm wondering if 1. is getting better since I might even want to refinance the house as rates decrease. At what point would it make sense to do that? I.e. how low would rates have to be?

Taking the cash out whenever rates are really low and then being free to buy whenever I find the perfect place--rather than having to time the loan and the purchase--would also be convenient. Especially since I live 2 hours north and can't jump at any deal my agent might find. It takes me a few days to set up a trip to look at the places.

What would you do? Option 2 seems safer, option 1 a bit riskier but potentially a better deal. I plan on holding on to both places for many years, by the way.

And I haven't even thought about the tax deductions in both scenarios... I've been too preoccupied thinking about the winter tri-training opportunities in Phoenix (We have real winters up here in Flagstaff...)
2008-01-25 1:14 PM
in reply to: #1172056

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Subject: RE: IF YOU OWN A HOME...

This is a interesting thread.  I'm very curious how low rates are going...under 5 percent?  If so, I'll probably be refinancing but not at a 30-year but 15...fixed only!  Currently my 30-yr is at 5.375 with the APR just under 5.5%.  When I refinanced at that rate about 5-years ago I was working with a lender that was pushing an ARM, or 5-yr interest only.  I didn't have very much patience with him and found my own loan at the 5.375. 

I know that there are a lot of good, hardworking people in the loan business but I sure am skepticle of the industry (someone mentioned Countrywide).  The industry is always coming up with a creative way of financing and the majority of the borrorer's don't understand what they have commited to (imo).  I'm not smart enough to figure out all these different loan types, so I have to stay with a fixed (a lot less brain damage).  There are tons of financial calculators (yahoo, kiplingers, etc) that can help borrowers figure out hidden costs and determine the best loan for their situation. 

 

2008-01-25 2:40 PM
in reply to: #1172056

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2008-01-26 2:04 PM
in reply to: #1172056

Master
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Flagstaff and Phoenix, AZ
Subject: RE: IF YOU OWN A HOME...
Everyone talks about "informed" consumers. I've been trying for several days to figure out the question I posted above in this thread. This is what I did:

1. posted here
2. asked the "mortgageprofessor.com"
3. send my old broker a message asking for some rate quotes so I can compare
4. filled out a request on LendingTree.com

Not a single useful response! Is there anything wrong with my question??? I'm trying to inform myself and not just be "sold" on something.

Frustrated.
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