Cow Milk or Soy Milk? (Page 2)

""Also, by GI tract feels funky if I eat too much dairy.""

That's weird since your GI tract NEEDS the beenfical floura in dairy products to function properly especailly if you take a lot of antibiotics.

If I drink it, (which is rare) it's cow's milk. I pretty much just use it for cereal and baking. My husband loves it mixed with chocolate Ovaltine so I have to buy it by the gallon. I've tried soy and all forms of it make my stomach hurt: soy milk, soy nuts and edamame.

I am lactose intolerant and drink soy. My 1.5yo daughter drinks a TON of regular whole milk each week.

 

You don't NEED anything from cow's milk for your body to function properly. And all the nutrients in milk can be found in other foods, including calcium.

And I agree, I don't think it's superior to milk to have soy milk for health benefits.  I don't drink it all that often.  It's just the best substitute I've found for when I do want milk or for baking.   I don't eat soy cheese, instead I just cut cheese out of my diet.  Same with ice cream...I just don't eat it anymore.   Lactaid isn't half bad either. 

Edited by kimmitri408 2008-02-07 8:48 AM

Kimmitri - you have no idea what you are talking about. Where are you going to replensih the enzymes and bacteria in your GUT after you take antibiotics if not with dairy? Acidophillus pills? Because they contain cow organs? The fact of the metter is that we do need milk to live. We get out nutrition from it as infants and as we age we eat other foods but milk is a pure food. Humans don't eat a health ydiet for the most part and we are living nowadays a lot longer than we were intended to live. Ideally we'd have processed and mass produced human breast milk as opposed to cow milk but people think that's weird. But Soy causes low sperm count, cancer, etc. etc. etc. It is awful.

Edited by big john h 2008-02-07 10:24 AM

I just want to correct you and say that the milk humans get for nutritional purposes as infants is from HUMANS (their mother), not from cows. We are naturally weined after a couple of years. We do not need milk to live.



Edited by lisac957 2008-02-07 10:59 AM

Scientific response - soy contains an estrogenic compound, it actually does improve PMS/menstrual/menopausal 'symptoms'. Organic soy is very good for you (let the refutes begin).
Dairy does not work for everyone - it is very mucous-forming and horrible for anyone who has allergies or a tendancy to allergies (and I'm not just talking about the runny-nose sneezing type allergies).
And we do not NEED milk to survive. If we are eating a well-rounded diet with lots of fruit and veggies, some grains and a little lean meat - we're doing just fine.

Look at the links from this post.
This was from an old "chocolate milk vs. chocolate soy milk" thread. Not as much controversy though...

Ooh! Another use for whole milk: yogurt. Especially vanilla flavored whole milk yogurt filled crepes with just a bit of blackberry syrup. YUM!!!

 

Edited by Renee 2008-02-07 11:52 AM

""I just want to correct you and say that the milk humans get for nutritional purposes as infants is from HUMANS (their mother), not from cows. We are naturally weined after a couple of years. We do not need milk to live. ""

And I want to correct you that we are naturally weened. As we develop we desire and need more protein but in many places children breastfeed into their teens (yes I know it is gross) and many primates ween until their mother's die or can no longer produce milk. i agree that it would be better to drink mass produced breast milk - but like i said that is just a gross prospect.



""There's probably a way to discuss this without telling someone she has no idea what she is talking about...In any case, soy does no such thing. EXCESSIVE amounts of soy may contribute to such things, but in a reasonable amount, it does not cause cancer or reduce sperm counts. Otherwise Japan would be, like, extinct.""

You are right and I'm sorry Kimmitri. I didn't mean to be such an . But I didn't go to dietary school so people could make stuff up about dairy. There is even a debate as to whether lactose intolerant is a real and viable affliction. The actual # of medical cases of lactose intolerance are ridiculously small compared to the vegan on the street who tells you they get gas when they drink milk so they are self diagnosed lactose intolerant. And most diagnosed lactose intolerance can be fixed with other medicines where the sufferer is able to drink milk in the end.



""Also there are many societies in the world where milk is not consumed, mainly in Asia and Africa. And the people don't die. ""

African children nurse twice as long as North American children and as a whole they ARE very malnourished. One reason the AIDS epidemic is so awful is that the children in the poorer regions of the continent don't have good hygiene or dietary practices making them much more succeptible to infection - according to JAMA.



""In any case, soy does no such thing. EXCESSIVE amounts of soy may contribute to such things, but in a reasonable amount, it does not cause cancer or reduce sperm counts. Otherwise Japan would be, like, extinct.""

Soy HAS been shown to cause reduced sperm counts and elevated estrogen levels in HUMANS with just a very small dose. in higher dosages in lab animals it has shown to cause testicular cancer and even breast cancer in males - which is rare. I'm not going to argue semantics about excessive vs. normal but if eating 10 lbs of soy will give me cancer then i don't see why anyone would want to eat 1 oz of it. And Japan's high soy intake has been indirectly related to the abnormal amount of female babies born there. Please see below:

Changes in human sex ratio

Usually, the sex ratio (numbers of boys born divided by the numbers of girls born) is slightly greater than one. In fact, world-wide about 106 boys are born for every 100 girls. This number is also reported as the male proportion of total births, or 106/206 = 0.514 = 51.4%.

Several researchers, however, have reported apparent recent declines in the proportion of male births, in the US, Japan, Canada, Denmark and the Netherlands. These declines have been very small but statistically significant. Fewer boys are being born than would be expected on the basis of the recent historical worldwide average.

In addition to these general declines, several specific cases have been reported involving sharp alterations in the sex ratio of people because of industrial accident, occupational exposure, or even nutritional factors. For example, in Russia pesticide workers exposed to elevated dioxin and dioxin-like compounds are less likely to father boys. The entire country of Japan has seen male births decrease for the past quarter century because of the high concentration of the estrogen rich soybean in the national diet. A similar pattern is observed in men exposed to a mixture of PCBs in Taiwan. All three of these studies report no effect on the sex ratio of infants born to exposed women.



* Bottom Line - MEN who eat Soy are asking for trouble.









Edited by big john h 2008-02-07 1:51 PM

ALSO:

The core of their concerns rests with the chemical makeup of soy: soy contains a natural chemical that mimics estrogen, the female hormone. Some studies in animals show that this chemical can alter sexual development. And in fact, 2 glasses of soy milk/day, over the course of one month, contain enough of the chemical to change the timing of a woman’s menstrual cycle.

Soy critics point to the fact that soybeans, as provided by nature, are not suitable for human consumption. Only after fermentation for some time, or extensive processing, including chemical extractions and high temperatures, are the beans, or the soy protein isolate, suitable for digestion when eaten.

Soybeans also reportedly contain an anti-nutrient called "phytic acid", which all beans do. However, soybeans have higher levels of phytic acid than any other legume. Phytic acid may block the absorption of certain minerals, including magnesium, calcium, iron and zinc. Epidemiological studies have shown that people in 3rd World Countries who have high consumption of grains and soy also commonly have deficiencies in these minerals. It must also be noted that this may be of particular concern with regard to babies who are using soy-based infant formulas.





AND




The propaganda that has created the soy sales miracle is all the more remarkable because, only a few decades ago, the soybean was considered unfit to eat - even in Asia. During the Chou Dynasty (1134-246 BC) the soybean was designated one of the five sacred grains, along with barley, wheat, millet and rice. However, the pictograph for the soybean, which dates from earlier times, indicates that it was not first used as a food; for whereas the pictographs for the other four grains show the seed and stem structure of the plant, the pictograph for the soybean emphasizes the root structure. Agricultural literature of the period speaks frequently of the soybean and its use in crop rotation. Apparently the soy plant was initially used as a method of fixing nitrogen.13

The soybean did not serve as a food until the discovery of fermentation techniques, some time during the Chou Dynasty. The first soy foods were fermented products like tempeh, natto, miso and soy sauce. At a later date, possibly in the 2nd century BC, Chinese scientists discovered that a purée of cooked soybeans could be precipitated with calcium sulfate or magnesium sulfate (plaster of Paris or Epsom salts) to make a smooth, pale curd - tofu or bean curd. The use of fermented and precipitated soy products soon spread to other parts of the Orient, notably Japan and Indonesia. The Chinese did not eat unfermented soybeans as they did other legumes such as lentils because the soybean contains large quantities of natural toxins or "antinutrients". First among them are potent enzyme inhibitors that block the action of trypsin and other enzymes needed for protein digestion. These inhibitors are large, tightly folded proteins that are not completely deactivated during ordinary cooking. They can produce serious gastric distress, reduced protein digestion and chronic deficiencies in amino acid uptake. In test animals, diets high in trypsin inhibitors cause enlargement and pathological conditions of the pancreas, including cancer. 14

Soybeans also contain haemagglutinin, a clot-promoting substance that causes red blood cells to clump together.

Trypsin inhibitors and haemagglutinin are growth inhibitors. Weanling rats fed soy containing these antinutrients fail to grow normally. Growth-depressant compounds are deactivated during the process of fermentation, so once the Chinese discovered how to ferment the soybean, they began to incorporate soy foods into their diets. In precipitated products, enzyme inhibitors concentrate in the soaking liquid rather than in the curd. Thus, in tofu and bean curd, growth depressants are reduced in quantity but not completely eliminated.

Soy also contains goitrogens - substances that depress thyroid function.

Soybeans are high in phytic acid, present in the bran or hulls of all seeds. It's a substance that can block the uptake of essential minerals - calcium, magnesium, copper, iron and especially zinc - in the intestinal tract. Although not a household word, phytic acid has been extensively studied; there are literally hundreds of articles on the effects of phytic acid in the current scientific literature. Scientists are in general agreement that grain- and legume-based diets high in phytates contribute to widespread mineral deficiencies in third world countries.15 Analysis shows that calcium, magnesium, iron and zinc are present in the plant foods eaten in these areas, but the high phytate content of soy- and grain-based diets prevents their absorption.

The soybean has one of the highest phytate levels of any grain or legume that has been studied,16 and the phytates in soy are highly resistant to normal phytate-reducing techniques such as long, slow cooking.17 Only a long period of fermentation will significantly reduce the phytate content of soybeans. When precipitated soy products like tofu are consumed with meat, the mineral-blocking effects of the phytates are reduced. 18 The Japanese traditionally eat a small amount of tofu or miso as part of a mineral-rich fish broth, followed by a serving of meat or fish.

Vegetarians who consume tofu and bean curd as a substitute for meat and dairy products risk severe mineral deficiencies. The results of calcium, magnesium and iron deficiency are well known; those of zinc are less so.

Zinc is called the intelligence mineral because it is needed for optimal development and functioning of the brain and nervous system. It plays a role in protein synthesis and collagen formation; it is involved in the blood-sugar control mechanism and thus protects against diabetes; it is needed for a healthy reproductive system. Zinc is a key component in numerous vital enzymes and plays a role in the immune system. Phytates found in soy products interfere with zinc absorption more completely than with other minerals.19 Zinc deficiency can cause a "spacey" feeling that some vegetarians may mistake for the "high" of spiritual enlightenment.

Milk drinking is given as the reason why second-generation Japanese in America grow taller than their native ancestors. Some investigators postulate that the reduced phytate content of the American diet - whatever may be its other deficiencies - is the true explanation, pointing out that both Asian and Western children who do not get enough meat and fish products to counteract the effects of a high phytate diet, frequently suffer rickets, stunting and other growth problems.

The University of Loughborough (famous in the UK for being an excellent Sports Science university) just released a study to say that cow's milk is an even better hydrator than water.

 

But I think that there are many things in our lives that are not good if consumed in  large quantities. Jesus, even water will kill you if you drink too much of it.

 

I doubt that soy or cow milk is that dangerous in small quantities.

Edited by jetlag 2008-02-07 2:47 PM

""The University of Loughborough (famous in the UK for being an excellent Sports Science university) just released a study to say that cow's milk is an even better hydrator than water.""

Fascinating and eerily strange. I know it is nutritious but never thought about the hydration aspects.

oipolloi, you said "The handful of posts you've authored in the few weeks you've been on BT have been inappropriately inflammatory. "
- But I do not remember arguing really with anyone? I got a tri coach and have been having a blast here.

If I appear to be flaming I apologize to your good judgement but often times people who disagree with you just say "you are flaming". There are tons of studies showing low sperm count and high estrogen levels in soy drinkers/eaters - even those taking small amounts. And the posts I made from medical studies. I am sorry they don't jibe with your personal beleifs but they are true. I mean a non US study shows decreased male births in Japan is associated with soybean consumption and you act like I made it up?

Arguing about Soy and Dairy is like arguing Republican or Democrat it seems as you will never change the other's mind but I am not flaming. Was my statement that you need milk to live laughable - probably so admittedly - but as in most op-ed posts threads I was just trying to get my point across. I honestly have read and studied about soy and dairy. Soy is scary. Idon't think men should consume it at all.

I vote for neither... I prefer breastmilk

What a boob

nevermind....

Edited by oipolloi 2008-02-07 3:31 PM

Aeroboob?

Edited by crowny2 2008-02-07 3:34 PM