Transition from bike to run

What you experience it typical.  Just train with bricks.

I don't think you want to slow down to give the legs a rest - it is a race, but it has been suggested to get into a smaller gear and increase your cadence and spin faster to get a little more blood flow into the legs.

That's the approach I take and it seems to help.  I also realize that even though my legs feel like jelly, they still operate about the same, so I push at the pace I know I can run at and the "jellyness" goes away after about 10 minutes.

BTW - same thing is suggested for the swim to bike transition.  Increase your kick for the last couple hundred yards to start the transfer of blood to the legs.

That is all the answer you need.

Slow down on the bike.  You are simply going too hard too early.  The recipe for a bad run is to push beyong your abilities on the bike.  And not that you couldn't put up a good bike split with your fitness and such, but people do not hold back when they should and it destroys their legs.

It is a 3 sport race, not one.  Just relax and slow down some.  You'll be amazed at the difference in your run.

Nope.

Doesn't make one bit of diffference if the OP is overcooking the bike.  You can practice it until you are blue in the face and have it down to a :30 transition and have your legs underneath you easily.  But if you went too hard, all that doesn't mean squat diddly.

Slow down some on the bike overall as was stated, and make sure you give it some spinning to help with any LA buildup.  Make sure your run cadence off the bike is not to slow either, some helpful hints here.

To put is in perspective, 2 min slower on the bike is roughly 0.5 mph slower speedwise, 4 min ~ 1.0.  Run-walking on the 10k run can add a lot more time than this if you blow up your legs on the bike!

"nope?".  So if he is NOT cooked on the bike, training bricks wouldn't help?

I would agree 100% if he is cooked from the bike - I don't see that in the post.

I assumed he wasn't wasted from the bike, and gave my answer.

You assumed he was wasted from the bike, and gave yours.

It's not as simple as "trian with bricks" or "nope" without all the facts....

I've heard it said that easing up a little at the end of the bike leg and spinning in a higher cadence to get more blood flow will help, but it doesn't work for me.

I might slow my RPE up just a little (no more than 1/2km and mentally prepare to unclip prior to an oft-too fast-approaching dismount line and visualize my transition) but since my running cadence is mush slower than my cycling cadence (cycling 90+, running 70ish) I like to gear up so that the final few km I am doing a little more mashing, so to speak, keeping my cadence down to closer to 70 to match my running cadence while still maintainign close to my target speed/RPE. I find this makes the transition to running much easier.

Knowing how hard you can go on the bike before letting everything loose on the run takes practice and experience and bricks are valuable in this regard.

THAT, I would say, is 95% of the equation - knowing how hard to go out on the bike is still something I fight with...  any other "trick" (like cadence) makes up the other 5% IMO.

I agree with your point.  I am really good on the bike too, and bomb the runs (relative terms but the contrast is certainly strong).  I do hold back on the bike, and that is certainly needed, but I still am two different people in my races (fast biker and slow runner).  Bricks should help, and certainly won't hurt.  The OP may find that he needs to back off on the bike more, but even still, some of the odd feeling should be improved by bricks.  (that is the prevailing theory anyway and I believe I've noticed that it has helped me).

Is there anything in particular you find different about the run during the event rather than in training?  Cramps, pain anywhere, breathing, etc?  This will help us understand what might be a more detailed issue.

 The only thing I can add that has not been said yet:

1.  If your bike fit right for you?  This can make a big difference and can make the run much more difficult.

2.  You can stretch on the bike (practice this first).  If you have particular muscles that are tight when you start running work on stretching them out on the bike (before T2). 

Michael

ok, alot of good discussion going on that i want to comment on.

first, i have been fitted and refitted a couple occasions for my bike.   got aerobars on a month ago and got the fit adjusted again to make sure it's correct.   i'm comfortable with the fit and have no concern about that.

also, the issue i run into is mostly with my HR during the run.   within a mile or so i'm already at a very high HR for me.   my legs are jelly yes, but my issue seems to be more with my HR than my leg strength.

as far as if i'm "cooked" after the ride....not really.   

for example, i went out and rode for 25 miles this morning at what i anticipate my race pace to be.   i finished fairly comfortable at 1 hour and 17 minutes.    i felt good after the ride and my HR was only 135.   for me, i don't start feeling winded or tired on the bike until my HR is significantly higher.   i felt good and confident after the ride.  

now, i had thought about jumping off and doing a short brick afterwards, but i honestly didn't want to ruin my confidence by suffering through a couple miles.   i called it a day and came home.

my plan is to do about an hour or so hard on my trainer tomorrow morning and then a 3 or 4 mile run afterwards.    i might repeat that early next week as a last hard workout before the Tri next weekend.

so i'm curious about trying to take it abit more easier on the bike.   i understand the reason, but being a competitive person that sounds tough to go easier when i feel good and know i can go harder.

hmmmm

Do bricks as part of your training.  Do a few a week.

A competitive person such as yourself would then certainly entertain a training and racing methodology that provided you the best results, correct?

Would it make it more palatable knowing you could "go easier" (a little) on the bike if it resulted in being able to "go harder" on the run? I still think it's something that, just like building a good endurance base in a single discipline, takes time, practice and experience.

As for your elevated HR when starting the run just off the bike - I think that's pretty normal. It takes a while for your heart rate to get into check, just like getting the feeling back into your legs so I wouldn't worry about that aspect so much. 

You brought up a good point about not wanting to ruin your confidence, however how much better to build the self esteem during training than have your confidence fail during a race.

I'm a feshman triathlete too, so take this advice from a total stranger with however many grains of salt you need.  What worked for me to get over the whole brick thing was just to do it alot (1-2x week).  Even if it is just 5 minute run after the bike just so I get the feel.  I do hill bricks, recovery bricks, interval bricks, r-b-r bricks, etc.  I am no longer really bothered by the transition that much.

I am not fast but I usually red line the for all parts of the sprint tri and go as hard as I can for the swim and bike and still run the 5K in 26-27 min (which is respectable for me since my stand alone 5K time is between 24:30-25:30).  Good luck. 

Cramping is sort of a different subject IMO.  Conditioning is a major factor in cramping (as well as running off the bike), but it also has to do with fluids and nutrition...

I used to get some NASTY leg cramps.  More time training, and paying attention to nutrition while working out help a lot to rid me of them.

One other tip I thought about during my lunch run.  This works for me, so I don't have any scientific proof to back me up.

I have found if I speed up my cadence and take smaller steps for the first mile or so, it helps a lot.  I sort of want to use the work "shuffle", but it's not really that.  It keep my speed up, but I don't need the leg strength I feel like I need when I take longer strides.  When I get more into the run, my stride get longer again.

The could be because I have long legs and a long stride.  I tend to have a heel/toe foot strike.  But I'm trying to learn how to land flat and shorten my stride.

X2

That works for me too and I'm a midfoot striker and somewhat shorter. Shorten the stride, increase the cadence until my legs start feeling like running normally. HR is whatever it is. In a race this short I don't worry about HR.

There is no evidence out there that training with bricks does anything other than extend your workout time and give you a psychological understanding of what it feels like.  There is no way you can "train" your body to get used to going from one muscle group to another slightly different one.  Mentally yes, but not physically.

I don't care what level an athlete is, they will always experience some issues in transitioning from one excercise to another.  But if your pace is right, and you come off the bike smart, there is no reason you cannot run a decent run.

I'm pretty okay on the bike as well, but all the disastrous runs I've had can be directed right back to going to hard on the bike.

There have been numerous discussions on bricks on the site over the last month or so, try to search a few of them and see how it goes.

again, thanks for all the discussion, tips, and advice.

here is what i plan to do in the limited time i have before my Oly Tri in 10 days.

#1.   Tomorrow morning i'm planning on an hour trainer ride with moderate effort.   I'm gonna then head out immediately after for a couple mile run.

#2.  Next Monday i'm going to do one last longer ride (25-30 miles) at a slightly slower pace.   I might or might not run a couple miles afterwards.

For the runs that follow the biking, i'm going to try the shorter strides for the first mile and see if that helps.

Question though, how exactely does one stretch on the bike and what muscles should i be concentrating on?   This totally makes sense to me and i'd like to try it a couple times as i think it might benefit me.   Some good pointers and tips for stretching would be great.

Thanks again for all the responses.

Extend a leg, drop your heel down and that will stretch out your calf and achilles.

Stand up with pedals level, lean over.  Flip pedals to opposite foot position (different foot forward), repeat.

Edit: And use the BT logs.  They are a great resource!!