Swim breathing frequency. (Page 2)

That I can agree with...especially for the distances you were talking about 500-1000m/yards

Taking a cue from this.... There is a well known coach - gordo?  KP?  - can't recall, that advocates every 3 for long course training.  Theory being every stroke allows you to go faster, but maybe faster than you should in a long course tri, resulting in problems on the bike/run.  Something like in a race breathe how you want, but you should be able to go 5 strokes without feeling like your lungs are going to explode.  Then you know your pacing is correct.

Apologies to any coach if i've misrepped the idea.

Completely disagree with this one. Breathing every 2 or 3 or 5 strokes isn't going to "control" your speed. Breathing more often will help you stay out of oxygen debt. When you're in a race you are going to be racing, there is no way of backing off to a leisurely pace to "save your legs" for the bike and run. If you're trained properly the swim shouldn't affect your bike and it's going to be the bike that will affect your run.

You don't pace yourself in the swim by how often you breathe. IMHO!

I breath when I need air...

I know that maybe over simplifies things, but it's true.  Many times I find that I'm in cruise mode and will breath on the 4th stroke, then on the second after that, then the 4th.  I feels comfortable to me.  I may also take breath on every other stroke just before or after a turn on the wall.

I do bilateral some days, every forth when swimming easy, etc.  I really don't worry about it and breath when it feels comfortable.

I wonder if people worry so much when they breath if running or biking or just do it naturally...

Wasn't advocating it, just relaying the message.

Graceful_dave did say he went faster breathing every two.  "going faster" on the swim may or may not be a wise thing to do if you go too fast for your training and gas yourself for the bike/run

Everyone's different I guess.  In all of my HIMs and my one IM i in fact backed off and swam, not at a "leisurely" pace, but I definitely holding back, and swimming at my near "all day" effort.  Conscious effort in my last 3 long races.  Precisely in order to pace for the bike and run.

Perhaps gordo will or can chime in.   I know for a fact, as written on this site, that he advocates 3 stroke breathing, at least in training, and that breathing every two strokes is causing us to work harder than we think we are.  This is for long course training

Again, not my theory.  I just swim laps

My question is this: How many of you dictate your breath according to how many steps you take running, or pedal strokes in cycling? So why would you in swimming?

When doing instruction, I advocate people trying to find a rhythm by counting for the exhale. The tendency of a beginner is to hold their breath, then all of sudden realize they need to breath, exhale short and forcefully and then gulp some air and start over, then they wonder why they get out of breath so soon. I have them count "IN, out, two, three, four, five <whatever>, IN, out, two...." (The in is emphasized since you do need to breath in in a quicker fashion than biking/running)

My pace dictates my breathing. If I'm just cruising, I'll go 6 or 7 strokes before I breath, and it doesn't matter if I need to breath left or right.  If I'm going medium speed it'll drop to 4 or 5, and the faster I go the more often I breath.

The best thing to do is become completely comfortable with the water and breathing, and just like running and biking, don't hold and gasp, but find a comfortable breathing rhythm for you.

John

My pace does as well.  And I'll go in reverse sometimes and figure out what my breathing is to tell me the RPE that I'm doing.

Especially in running.  For most runs if I'm breathing 3-2 I'm right where I want to be.  When I'm 2-2 it is something fast and if I'm even remotely close to 2-1 or 1-1 it is time to slow down!!

Swimming I'm usually 3 - 2 - 2 - 3 - 2 - 2 - 3 etc.  If I'm doing that I'm in a comfortable groove.  If I'm 2 - 2 - 2 then I know I'm moving out at a solid effort.

Uhm...yes, it is. Where did I suggest it wasn't? And no, I don't hold my breath, nor do I in swimming. I just try to settle into a sustainable rhythm and breathing pattern.

John 

I'm not sure how much I agree or disagree with the above study. There are just waaaay too many variables when it comes to pacing during a swim. Sleep, diet, previous days training or recovery are all factors that affect a 750 m (or 2.4 mi) swim. 

I am just speaking from my own experiences and understand that it is necessary to pace the swim. Obviously no one is going to swim a triathlon swim at 100%. My effort during the swim of a sprint race or an Ironman is around 75% and my AHR is usually in the 160's. When I get out of the water in a race I feel good and ready to ride. (I also have a strong 6-beat kick that I don't hold back on and it doesn't affect my ride or run, but that's a whole thread in itself. ) If I push the swim to a 90% effort I may gain 2 or 3 minutes in the swim but my HR would be in the upper 170's and it would take a long time to recover and would definitely affect the rest of my race.

When I said that the swim wouldn't affect the bike and run I did say that if you were properly trained. A race pace should be a pace that you are comfortable RACING at for the amount of training you have put in.

It still comes down to "In endurance sports, oxygen is your friend!" you need to breathe the get oxygen. Breathing more allows more oxygen in the body, the body likes that.

Now that I think about it Fred, perhaps the breathe every 7 stroke pattern would work out well for YOU at Eagleman.

As a 3 decade veteran in the pool and someone who's gone 49 min in kona, here's my 2 cents.

Breathing from an oxygen standpoint is obvious. Breathe when you need air. Don't fully discount the breathing discipline drills though (breathing every 5-7-9). Not to train hypoxica (the O2 content is still the same on each breath, so simulating altitude by simply holding your breath won't help), but to work lung capacity. Not a huge need in tri's but still can help in some tough spots like the start when you get dunked.

The importance of the alternating breath or breathing every 3 (B3) has everything to do with efficency. B3 will keep the stroke balanced in form but will also keep the strength of each side more equal. If you train every other and favor one side then you have a weak side.  Just like a weak leg in cycling, you will have problems eventually.

The other aspect of this is that the motion of breathing slows the stroke. Turning your head breaks the streamline and slows you down. So there is a give and take. Breathe a lot and you are strong but constantly slowing yourself down. Breathe too little and you are more efficient but you don't have enough air to keep the speed. In my workouts my B3 is only marginally slower than B2 b/c I lose the efficency. Someone mentioned the Olympics and the reasoning for when they breathe and when they don't. Sprinters don't breathe. If a 50 freestyler takes a breath, they screwed up their race. You will see almost no breathing in the final strokes to the wall for the same reason. They can go without oxygen for the final meters and be more efficient.  There are also some other key areas in a race that have shown to help (off the walls they don't normally breathe right away to maintain momentum from the push, etc).  So to compare breathing on bike or run isn't entirely accurate. It might be more accurate to compare getting a drink of water from a downtube waterbottle (you break your aero and your rhythm) too often.

So, I would say breathing every 3 in training is important on aerobic type swimming. As the sets get hard, get the air. In racing, your stroke should be balanced from your training, so get the air above anything else.

Regarding the Phelps comment, he is a freak of nature, so he can do what he wants, but still proves this point better than anyone off the walls and at the finish (kicking streamlined can actually be faster than swimming as he has proved).

By the way, I never thought I would see "Maglischo" on this site. I'm impressed.

As do I.  And why I breath every two strokes in practice and racing 99% of the time.  But a google search may reveal that there are other opinions out there.

out

I'm no biologist/pysiologist but I don't think your body can learn to live with reduced oxygen by swimming occasionally by B5-9... maybe if you lived in a reduced oxygen environment for weeks you could, although I could be wrong.  I think if your body does not have enough oxygen you slow down, pass out or die.