login
ADHD Spinoff
-
No new posts
|
 2009-05-14 3:44 PM |
Champion  7347     SRQ, FL |  Subject: ADHD SpinoffI'm probably going to regret starting this thread but it seemed like there were quite a few differing opinions in Jim's thread. So Aces... answer me this.. What are the medical symptoms that would cause a child to be diagnosed with ADHD and not say fetal alcohol syndrome, or fetal drug syndrome or a thyroid or glandular issue? What medical/psychological test can be run to distinguish 100 "ADHD" kids from 100 kids who do not have ADHD but have had a lack of parenting and discipline (or one of the issues listed above)? As far as I know there is no definitive test that can be run to determine this. So how can you diagnoses something that cannot be tested? I am not dismissing that there are children with mental and emotional issues that may be labeled as "ADHD" but it seems like a lot of kids (and some adults) who act up now have "ADHD" and use it as an excuse. BTW I'm heading out in about 30 mins and probably won't be back to this thread in a while... ------------------------------------------------------------------------- For some background this is a spinoff from this thread. Might want to read it first. http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=159049&start=1 Edited by TriRSquared 2009-05-14 3:50 PM |
| 2009-05-14 3:53 PM in reply to: #2151510 |
Veteran 1097 Elizabethtown, KY | Subject: RE: ADHD Spinoff Thanks for the additional context, but for the purposes of this thread here's what you originally said. TriRSquared - 2009-05-14 12:22 PM Yeah that's out of line... I would agree with.... "You know what autism ADHD is? I'll tell you what autism ADHD is. In 99 percent of the cases, it's a brat who hasn't been told to cut the act out. That's what autism ADHD is." ....however I think we can all agree that parenting environment is a significant factor in how our children develop. I will also admit that I was formerly in the camp that believed the vast majority of attention and behavior "disorders" were figments of people's imagination and could be controlled by better parenting. Well, your opinion tends to change when you have kids, and particularly when you have two kids with which you are raising by the same standards but that developing along different paths. My oldest has been diagnosed with ADD. His younger (by two years) brother has not and will not. They have been raised in a two-parent household with the right combination of tenderness and discipline. However, at this point in their lives, it is blatantly obvious that there are issues one faces with regards to the ability to focus that the other does not. The older has a hard time focusing on homework and we sometimes have to micromanage him. The younger attacks his homework with vigor. I coach my oldest's soccer team. I often see him disengaged from the activity on the field, and it's clearly in a manner that he can't control very well. Our youngest, on the other hand, doesn't have the same issue. I'm not foolish enough to believe that my wife and fall into a 1% minority. As many teachers must experience, I see on my soccer team a wide range of emotional maturity behavior. Sure there are some misdiagnosed ADHD kids, but I firmly believe they are the minority.
|
| 2009-05-14 3:59 PM in reply to: #2151510 |
Champion 8936 | Subject: RE: ADHD Spinoff I don't really want to be involved in this debate, but I do have to add one thing. There are lots of medical and psychiatric conditions that are diagnosed based on symptoms and not definitive testing. That is not a litmus test as to whether or not something is real. |
| 2009-05-14 4:00 PM in reply to: #2151510 |
Champion 14571 the alamo city, Texas | Subject: RE: ADHD Spinoff maybe tri-r's observation is that people are just SAYING their kids have ADHD. like people that are sad go on WebMD and say they are depressed, people that struggle to breathe once or twice google it and decide they have asthma, people have over energetic brats and think they have ADHD. i agree that ADHD is a REAL disease. and i'd guess that the amount of kids actually clinically diagnosed as such are legit, but would love to see numbers on how many actually have it, cause i know LOTS of little rambunctious kids and none with ADHD. |
| 2009-05-14 4:02 PM in reply to: #2151510 |
Champion 7347 SRQ, FL | Subject: RE: ADHD Spinoff I have two children. One is an infant so we'll dismiss her for now. The other is an 8 year old boy. He is like most children, he fidgets, cannot focus at times, gets distracted and overly excited. That's part of being a child. If we had ADHD back when I was a kid I would have been "diagnosed". However I turned out to be a competent fully functioning adult. I have no focus problems and am not hyperactive. When I edited that quote I changed one word in it. I'm not say scientifically that only 1% truly have ADHD. What I am saying is that I feel that ADHD is used with a lot of children as an excuse for lack of parenting (or for other medical issues as stated above). I've seen several kids on drugs to combat "ADHD". They are zombies. There is no way a kid should be sedated to that level. I also believe that there are many parents who coax their doctors into diagnosing ADHD when they simply want to be lazy and not actually parent. I do not know your kids or your situation so please do not assume I'm attacking you. What really frustrates me is the ADULTS (Paris Hilton for example) who say they have ADHA when most have probably never been to a doctor in the first place. |
| 2009-05-14 4:03 PM in reply to: #2151555 |
Champion 7347 SRQ, FL | Subject: RE: ADHD Spinoff DerekL - 2009-05-14 4:59 PM I don't really want to be involved in this debate, but I do have to add one thing. There are lots of medical and psychiatric conditions that are diagnosed based on symptoms and not definitive testing. That is not a litmus test as to whether or not something is real. OK fair enough. I'll take your word for it. But how would you diagnose problem A from problem B when the symptoms are the same? |
| 2009-05-14 4:03 PM in reply to: #2151558 |
| Subject: RE: ADHD Spinoff meherczeg - 2009-05-14 5:00 PM maybe tri-r's observation is that people are just SAYING their kids have ADHD. like people that are sad go on WebMD and say they are depressed, people that struggle to breathe once or twice google it and decide they have asthma, people have over energetic brats and think they have ADHD. i agree that ADHD is a REAL disease. and i'd guess that the amount of kids actually clinically diagnosed as such are legit, but would love to see numbers on how many actually have it, cause i know LOTS of little rambunctious kids and none with ADHD. x2. I'm sure it's real. But I'm NOT sure that 2/3 of the kids at the school where my mom works have it, though they claim. I've nannied for kids who supposedly have ADD/ADHD. And oddly, they seemed well-behaved when I was there, told them "no", disciplined them...AND I've nannied for kids who DO have something wrong, and there's a difference. |
| 2009-05-14 4:08 PM in reply to: #2151568 |
Champion 8936 | Subject: RE: ADHD Spinoff TriRSquared - 2009-05-14 4:03 PM DerekL - 2009-05-14 4:59 PM I don't really want to be involved in this debate, but I do have to add one thing. There are lots of medical and psychiatric conditions that are diagnosed based on symptoms and not definitive testing. That is not a litmus test as to whether or not something is real. OK fair enough. I'll take your word for it. But how would you diagnose problem A from problem B when the symptoms are the same? I'm not a psychiatrist, but I would imagine that there are certain criteria that would have to be met for a diagnosis to be made. Two sets won't be the same though they may include similar elements. FWIW, I agree that it's probably overdiagnosed. |
| 2009-05-14 4:14 PM in reply to: #2151510 |
Expert 810 | Subject: RE: ADHD Spinoff Please dont take this personally as its not meant to be but I am sure theres no way it wont be. The problem is all of the "problems" you mentioned could just be explained by a difference in personalities couldnt they? One attacks homework and one doesnt. One seems distracted and one doesnt. The sudden jump with medicating our children into submission is disturbing. That is not to say that some children wont benefit and that there arent children that have issues but far to often I have seen parents taking their children to the doctor for help when it is very obvious that the issue is a lack of something in the home ( this is not directed at you but rather families from my own life) My ex wife is a perfect example. My daughter is the child most parents would want. Her brother and sister from my exs second marriage could walk into some doctors offices and EASILY be diagnosed with ADHD but you know what, its how she raises them. She has talked to me about it quite a bit and it just comes down to her parenting skills and a lack of consistant discipline. My daughter has rules and consequences and they are enforced.Her brother and sister dont. Also another sad trend is a"kid being a kid". I have talked to far to many young parents who freak out when their kids are being kids and state " OMG I cant control this kid. I think he has ADHD" Sadly there are doctors who will medicate them instead of suggesting that the child is fine and the parent needs the help. Now obviously as I said there are legit cases and who knows what the percentage is but I do feel that some healthcare profesionals are far to quick to medicate.My mother spent 30 years working for the local school district and while there were children who were diagnosed and were helped there was a definite jump in the amount of cases that the childrens teachers didnt agree with. The children suffered That being said I have a friend who was diagnosed and it changed his life. You can still tell that he is someone who it would have benefited after being around him for a few days. This is atouchy subject and hopefully no one took it as an attack on them or their children because I was speaking of people that I actually know. Edited by Imjin 2009-05-14 4:18 PM |
| 2009-05-14 4:16 PM in reply to: #2151538 |
Extreme Veteran 464 Louisville, KY | Subject: RE: ADHD Spinoff Well, your opinion tends to change when you have kids,
100% agreed!! I have an ADHD child. He's a great kid. Until I was faced with this, I never really understood it either. It is very much real, and his attention issues are not something that is a result of bad parenting or him being a brat. It is something that he can't help. He's 12 now, so he understands a little more about it, and we keep things pretty structured to help him out. |
| 2009-05-14 4:53 PM in reply to: #2151510 |
Expert 1456 Central New Jersey | Subject: RE: ADHD Spinoff I don't even know where to start. 1) YUP ADHD/ADD is WAY over diagnosed 2) Parents or lack of parenting is an issue in some cases (my son's friend is a prime example) 3) Getting the diagnosis for the child sometimes gets extra help at school so parents may have to do less (face it most of our society is lazy) 4) Kids don't get to be kids 5) My son has Asperger's syndrome (I am a VERY strict parent, and he does do kid stuff) It took my son developing some pretty severe anxiety (panic attacks) and OCD to finally take him to a doctor for treatment. We were very much of the "kids fidget" "he's bored in school because he's smart" camp. Getting him on some prozac has turned him into a different child. He is not a zombie, he is happy, enjoying life, and still fidgets. He had some pretty extensive testing done (3 hours) watching him follow simple instructions, repeat parts of story, draw diagrams, etc. to see that he did indeed need some help. Of course the school won't give him any assistance because he isn't failing any classes (supposedly he needs to fail in order to get help in our district) so we help him at home as much as we can to not forget things! |
| 2009-05-14 5:31 PM in reply to: #2151510 |
Master 1610 Kirkland, WA | Subject: RE: ADHD Spinoff i didn't read much of this. . but all i know is that my brother has/had 'ADHD' and he was super hyper active and crazy when he was a kid. . and my parents had a heck of a time with him. . now he is really relaxed and calm. . pretty odd! i think it can be 'over perscribed' and some doctors may be to quick to give drugs. . but i think it does exist. . |
| 2009-05-14 6:23 PM in reply to: #2151592 |
Pro 4909 Hailey, ID | Subject: RE: ADHD Spinoff M-shell - 2009-05-14 3:16 PM Well, your opinion tends to change when you have kids,  100% agreed!!   I have an ADHD child. He's a great kid. Until I was faced with this, I never really understood it either. It is very much real, and his attention issues are not something that is a result of bad parenting or him being a brat.  It is something that he can't help. He's 12 now, so he understands a little more about it, and we keep things pretty structured to help him out. To both sides, neither side knows which is right and don't forget everyone here is just stating their opinions. Keep up the calm discussion  Edited by bradword 2009-05-14 6:23 PM |
| 2009-05-14 6:25 PM in reply to: #2151568 |
Pro 4353 Wallingford, PA | Subject: RE: ADHD Spinoff TriRSquared - 2009-05-14 5:03 PM DerekL - 2009-05-14 4:59 PM I don't really want to be involved in this debate, but I do have to add one thing.  There are lots of medical and psychiatric conditions that are diagnosed based on symptoms and not definitive testing.  That is not a litmus test as to whether or not something is real. OK fair enough. I'll take your word for it. But how would you diagnose problem A from problem B when the symptoms are the same? FYI... Here are the diagnostic crieteria for ADHD. I'm not a psychologist, but I AM a parent of a child who CLEARLY has attention/focus issues (and not an ounce of hyperactivity, by the way.... ), and two children who do not. My understanding is that part of the criteria for diagnosing the disorder is that there is "CLEAR EVIDENCE OF CLINICALLY SIGNIFICANT IMPAIRMENT IN SOCIAL, ACADEMIC, OR OCCUPATIONAL FUNCTIONING." Diagnosis is made through a series of tests. Some psycological testing is done, but parents and teachers also fill out Rating Scales that help document whether or not inattention/hyperactivity are impairing the child's social or academic functioning. |
| 2009-05-14 7:12 PM in reply to: #2151510 |
Pro 6767 the Alabama part of Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: ADHD Spinoff Some clinical and statistical information is clearly called for, especially when people are making claims like "ADHD isn't real" or "ADHD is overdiagnosed" or "Kids are being medicated into zombies". I will try to be brief, and not to get myself sucked too far into this thread. ADHD affects, on average 3-6% of kids in a general population; call it 1 in 20 for the sake of argument. That also means that the average classroom has 1-2 kids with ADHD. If there are significantly more than that, unless the school has deliberately grouped the kids together, then maybe there is an epidemic of overdiagnosis. ADHD is a diagnosis made by history. Symptoms need to be present in a variety of settings and from an early age. It is not unreasonable for a mother to report a higher level of activity in utero (though that is not typically an age at which is diagnosed or treated). Multiple reporters are needed, including school and home typically. Hyperactivity is not the hallmark symptom. Symptoms related to attentional regulation are key - initiating attention, sustaining attention to task completion, shifting attention when needed, freedom from distractibility, etc. There are very specific brain regions involved, that can be identified with PET scans, though it is not a reliable sort of test. There is also a higher need for novelty seeking. Which means that rewards lose effectiveness more quickly than in non-ADHD people. (This is a somewhat newer finding, which parents have long noted when they would tell me and my fellow kiddie shrinks "nothing works" when we would talk about using positive reinforcement. Because the novelty wears off more quickly, and finding a reward is a constant struggle. Who knew?) People can learn to modulate their symptoms. Brains develop typically though people's mid-20's, which means some people with minor symptoms may truly outgrow symptoms; and other people can learn coping skills, and that some people (up to as many as 50%) still have symptoms needing treatment in adulthood. Symptoms are things which interfere with daily functioning. Kids with ADHD have about 50% chance of a parent with ADHD. Which means when you blame the parenting, you may in fact be dealing with the parent's symptoms relating to routines. Stimulant medications improve focus and concentration. Too much medicine results in a a phenomena known clinically as "over-focusing". But known to parents/teachers as "doped up zombie". So meds do not automatically cause kids to be zombies. Oversensitivity to meds or too high a dose does. Kids under 6 or 7 have unpredictable responses to medicine. Fortunately relatively few kids this age are candidates for meds as diagnosis is less clear. Sometimes a few more years of symptoms in additional settings are needed to be certain of the diagnosis. Untreated ADHD kids have higher rates of drug abuse in adolescence, higher rates of teen pregnancy, drop outs, academic problems, minor MVA's, and legal problems. They also have higher rates of Oppositional Defiant Disorder (what I like to call the "You're Not The Boss Of Me" disorder). And on a personal note, despite my years of experience diagnosing and treating ADHD, the thing that MOST brought home to me the impact of this on kids and their daily functioning (school, peers, etc) was the year I ran a troop of girl scouts (10-12 year olds). One girl had untreated ADHD. It was a nightmare for me as the leader, she alienated other girls to the point that one of them who later befriended my daughter years later was STILL talking about her negatively. She was a big reason that I only did this ONE year, and I am really, really, really glad I am not a teacher having to deal with this everyday without the ability to point it out to parents. |
| 2009-05-14 7:15 PM in reply to: #2151747 |
Master 1675 Suwanee, Ga. | Subject: RE: ADHD Spinoff I could do about 6 pages on this...if I could stay on task long enough...oh look, a kitty! but there are just a few things I want to throw out there; 2....The problem is not totally, that someone can't pay attention, it is that they can't focus on just one thing. They seem to think it goes back to the Hunter/Gatherer thing where if you didn't pay attention to about 10 things at once you would would wind up being some animals supper instead of coming home with some supper. People with ADD can keep track with many things at once. True...they are not a "focused" on the given task as a "normal" person but can usually get most of it and still tell you what is going on outside the window or in the next office over. |
| 2009-05-14 7:19 PM in reply to: #2151899 |
Master 1675 Suwanee, Ga. | Subject: RE: ADHD Spinoff gearboy - 2009-05-14 8:12 PM Some clinical and statistical information is clearly called for, especially when people are making claims like "ADHD isn't real" or "ADHD is overdiagnosed" or "Kids are being medicated into zombies". I will try to be brief, and not to get myself sucked too far into this thread. ADHD affects, on average 3-6% of kids in a general population; call it 1 in 20 for the sake of argument. That also means that the average classroom has 1-2 kids with ADHD. If there are significantly more than that, unless the school has deliberately grouped the kids together, then maybe there is an epidemic of overdiagnosis. ADHD is a diagnosis made by history. Symptoms need to be present in a variety of settings and from an early age. It is not unreasonable for a mother to report a higher level of activity in utero (though that is not typically an age at which is diagnosed or treated). Multiple reporters are needed, including school and home typically. Hyperactivity is not the hallmark symptom. Symptoms related to attentional regulation are key - initiating attention, sustaining attention to task completion, shifting attention when needed, freedom from distractibility, etc. There are very specific brain regions involved, that can be identified with PET scans, though it is not a reliable sort of test. There is also a higher need for novelty seeking. Which means that rewards lose effectiveness more quickly than in non-ADHD people. (This is a somewhat newer finding, which parents have long noted when they would tell me and my fellow kiddie shrinks "nothing works" when we would talk about using positive reinforcement. Because the novelty wears off more quickly, and finding a reward is a constant struggle. Who knew?) People can learn to modulate their symptoms. Brains develop typically though people's mid-20's, which means some people with minor symptoms may truly outgrow symptoms; and other people can learn coping skills, and that some people (up to as many as 50%) still have symptoms needing treatment in adulthood. Symptoms are things which interfere with daily functioning. Kids with ADHD have about 50% chance of a parent with ADHD. Which means when you blame the parenting, you may in fact be dealing with the parent's symptoms relating to routines. Stimulant medications improve focus and concentration. Too much medicine results in a a phenomena known clinically as "over-focusing". But known to parents/teachers as "doped up zombie". So meds do not automatically cause kids to be zombies. Oversensitivity to meds or too high a dose does. Kids under 6 or 7 have unpredictable responses to medicine. Fortunately relatively few kids this age are candidates for meds as diagnosis is less clear. Sometimes a few more years of symptoms in additional settings are needed to be certain of the diagnosis. Untreated ADHD kids have higher rates of drug abuse in adolescence, higher rates of teen pregnancy, drop outs, academic problems, minor MVA's, and legal problems. They also have higher rates of Oppositional Defiant Disorder (what I like to call the "You're Not The Boss Of Me" disorder). And on a personal note, despite my years of experience diagnosing and treating ADHD, the thing that MOST brought home to me the impact of this on kids and their daily functioning (school, peers, etc) was the year I ran a troop of girl scouts (10-12 year olds). One girl had untreated ADHD. It was a nightmare for me as the leader, she alienated other girls to the point that one of them who later befriended my daughter years later was STILL talking about her negatively. She was a big reason that I only did this ONE year, and I am really, really, really glad I am not a teacher having to deal with this everyday without the ability to point it out to parents. I was hoping you would weigh in on this....very well said, very informative and from my experience RIGHT ON THE MONEY. Thank you Steve |
| 2009-05-14 8:17 PM in reply to: #2151563 |
Arch-Bishop of BT 10278 Pittsburgh | Subject: RE: ADHD Spinoff If we had ADHD back when I was a kid I would have been "diagnosed". However I turned out to be a competent fully functioning adult. I have no focus problems and am not hyperactive. Aren't you self diagnosing here? In the same way that you criticize others? You use it to tear others down, and yet use it to shore up your argument. But as has been said, since brains are in development until the 20's, you might actually have had it and grown out of it...
|
| 2009-05-15 12:27 AM in reply to: #2151902 |
Master 2665 The Whites, New Hampshire | Subject: RE: ADHD Spinoff They seem to think it goes back to the Hunter/Gatherer thing Too funny that you say this - I used to work at the Hunter School, so named because it caters to the hunters - that is, it is a school for kids with ADD/ADHD as their primary diagnosis who are not functioning mainstream. Yes, ladies and gents, I lived in a house full of ADHD middle school boys. I think *I* need medication! So I've seen a whole bunch of the more extreme cases all grouped together. One thing that really jumps out in that situation - ADD/ADHD does not present the same in every kid. We had the kid who would hyper-focus on reading to the point where he couldn't focus on anything else, including getting up off the couch to use the bathroom. We had the kid who had to make it through three pages of a very simple book in twenty minutes in order to be able to play (that could sound awful, but I promise you it was done as part of a whole learning-to-focus plan). We had the kid who, in the middle of a horrible violent release would scream everything from hating his mother to loving his mother to missing his mother to never wanting to see his mother to playing paintball in the woods to shooting us with his paintball gun to telling his uncle to come after us to running away so his family couldn't find him to...well, you get the point. Let's just say he was one with more than one problem. Point is, behavioral problems are not easy, are rarely found in isolation, and the comorbidity can be so overwhelming that the diagnosis are just guesses until something finally works for longer than a month. As to diagnoses and tests, I am currently in the middle of being diagnosed for a neuro condition that, as a stated condition for diagnosis, everything else must be ruled out. There is no conclusive test, there is only the idea that eventually you rule everything else out and that's what you are left with. This is a disease that is very definitely real, lots of big fundraisers, national Society, obvious symptoms in some phases, etc. So the idea of no definitive physical test meaning anything doesn't work. |
| 2009-05-15 12:27 AM in reply to: #2151510 |
Master 2665 The Whites, New Hampshire | Subject: RE: ADHD Spinoff And from my days at the Hunter School: Q: How many ADHD kids does it take to change a light bulb? A: Wanna go ride bikes? |
| 2009-05-15 6:40 AM in reply to: #2151964 |
Champion 7347 SRQ, FL | Subject: RE: ADHD Spinoff akustix - 2009-05-14 9:17 PM If we had ADHD back when I was a kid I would have been "diagnosed". However I turned out to be a competent fully functioning adult. I have no focus problems and am not hyperactive. Aren't you self diagnosing here? In the same way that you criticize others? You use it to tear others down, and yet use it to shore up your argument. But as has been said, since brains are in development until the 20's, you might actually have had it and grown out of it... What I meant was that I probably showed symptoms and signs that now days some Drs would have diagnosed as ADD/ADHD. My point is that I was never treated, was never given meds, never had my behaviors altered in any way (other than a good smack up side the head when I deserved it) and I turned out fine. My point is that I DID NOT have ADD/ADHD... I'm saying (in my opinion) that a lot of ADD/ADHD cases are not ADD/ADHD. They are other issues that are mistaken for ADD/ADHd.
|
| 2009-05-15 6:45 AM in reply to: #2151899 |
Champion 7347 SRQ, FL | Subject: RE: ADHD Spinoff jsnowash - 2009-05-14 7:25 PM FYI... Here are the diagnostic crieteria for ADHD. OK fair enough. I'll take your word for it. But how would you diagnose problem A from problem B when the symptoms are the same? This is not the first time I've had this discussion and I've done my research on the subject. This is one persons criteria for ADHD. I have yet to find any generally accepted and agreed upon medical and/or psychological criteria for ADHD diagnosis. A lot of the things in this list can also be explained by other factors. Again, I'm not saying it does not exist. I'm just saying that I think it's WAY WAY too overused as a diagnosis. gearboy - 2009-05-14 8:12 PM Some clinical and statistical information is clearly called for, especially when people are making claims like "ADHD isn't real" or "ADHD is overdiagnosed" or "Kids are being medicated into zombies". I will try to be brief, and not to get myself sucked too far into this thread. {{lots and lots on info snipped}}} A lot of good info there gearboy. Can I ask for the source? The reason I ask is that I've found numerous other sources that refute much of this. For example: ADHD drugs abuse rates no higher than normal http://focus.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/1/2/196 I'm not trying to argue each point but simply pointing out that there is a lot of disagreement on the topic. I'm just curious where you got your info so I can educate myself further. Edited by TriRSquared 2009-05-15 6:49 AM |
| 2009-05-15 7:07 AM in reply to: #2152366 |
Pro 6767 the Alabama part of Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: ADHD Spinoff TriRSquared - 2009-05-15 7:45 AM gearboy - 2009-05-14 8:12 PM Some clinical and statistical information is clearly called for, especially when people are making claims like "ADHD isn't real" or "ADHD is overdiagnosed" or "Kids are being medicated into zombies". I will try to be brief, and not to get myself sucked too far into this thread. {{lots and lots on info snipped}}} A lot of good info there gearboy. Can I ask for the source? The reason I ask is that I've found numerous other sources that refute much of this. For example: ADHD drugs abuse rates no higher than normal http://focus.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/1/2/196 I'm not trying to argue each point but simply pointing out that there is a lot of disagreement on the topic. I'm just curious where you got your info so I can educate myself further. In general - my information was from the numerous books, articles, and conferences I have either read, attended, or presented at over the past 20 years as a child psychiatrist. I can't off the top of my head give you the exact citing for each, but the specific article you cite is by the same group (Biederman's group at the Mass Gen, which does a ton of work on ADHD and more controversially on childhood bipolar disorder) that presented and published the information on drug abuse. Your link is just to the abstract, so I can't speak to it's details. But the higher rates of drug abuse occurs in UNTREATED ADHD (offhand, I think it was either 3x or 5x the rate of non-ADHD kids); and the rates for TREATED ADHD was the same as non-ADHD. So the devil is likely in the details. It's a little like articles that cite the abuse risk for Ritalin. Ritalin absolutely can be abused and I have also treated people who were addicted. But I have also read an article in JAMA that stated it is not abusable because the rate of absorption is too slow. Which is true if you take it as directed (i.e. orally); but not when you either inject or snort it, the way addicts will. And misuse (taking your college roommate's meds to study for a test, for example) is a whole 'nother issue. Also now that I pulled up the text of the study, I found this: "Another limitation of our design is that we did not control for treatment. Since ours was a clinical sample, many of our subjects were receiving some form of treatment during the follow-up period". (emphasis added by me) Although he speculates in this article that treatment will not make a difference, I know for a fact that they later did the actual research that contradicted that expectation. Again, I can't recall the exact year, but I know it was more recently than 2003. So, not to challenge you back, but ADHD is so frought with emotionally laden controversy, and the interwebs tubes are so clogged with poor quality data, I have to ask where you get your information that refutes my overview? |
| 2009-05-15 7:13 AM in reply to: #2152414 |
Champion 7347 SRQ, FL | Subject: RE: ADHD Spinoff gearboy - 2009-05-15 8:07 AM I have either read, attended, or presented at over the past 20 years as a child psychiatrist. I did not know that this was your area of study. This does mean a lot. I did miss the part about "untreated" ADHD. My apologies. gearboy - 2009-05-15 8:07 AM So, not to challenge you back, but ADHD is so frought with emotionally laden controversy, and the interwebs tubes are so clogged with poor quality data, I have to ask where you get your information that refutes my overview? I have been "interested" in this subject for many years and my information comes from years of reading as well. I'm an engineer so I do require information to be sited and backed up so I do not "believe everything" I read on the Internet. What I find most interesting is your statement that 3-6% of children have it. That's pretty low in my opinion. It's not too far off the quote I edited to make my initial point. It's pretty small. So in your opinion is it overly diagnosed by doctors and parents? Edited by TriRSquared 2009-05-15 7:15 AM |
| 2009-05-15 7:17 AM in reply to: #2152366 |
Giver 18427 | Subject: RE: ADHD Spinoff TriRSquared - 2009-05-15 7:45 AM jsnowash - 2009-05-14 7:25 PM FYI... Here are the diagnostic crieteria for ADHD. OK fair enough. I'll take your word for it. But how would you diagnose problem A from problem B when the symptoms are the same? This is one persons criteria for ADHD. I have yet to find any generally accepted and agreed upon medical and/or psychological criteria for ADHD diagnosis. The DSM-IV is more than "one person's" criteria, right? And I'm definitley wading into unfamiliar waters here, but aren't most psychological disorders (and lots of classically "medical" disorders, for that matter) diagnosed by the prescence or abscense of a complex of symptoms? So while individual symptoms may be attributable to many different diagnoses, it's the body of symptoms from which a Dx is made, right? Kind of like multiple sclerosis, right? |
|
|
|
|
View profile
Add to friends
Go to training log
Go to race log
Send a message
View album
CONNECT WITH FACEBOOK