login
IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL (Page 2)
-
No new posts
|
 2009-05-27 1:16 PM in reply to: #2175921 |
 Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFLWarning: Don't believe everything you read on the 'net. A waiver properly written to cover negligence (i'll be a week's salary that NAS'/ WTC's does) will in fact cover ordinary negligence. Will no cover gross negligence. Missing glass on a sweep? I argue ordinary negligence. and you always demand a jury trial, in some jurisdictions you might waive it if you don't ask for it. Means nothing at this point as to their strategy/intent Edited by ChrisM 2009-05-27 1:17 PM |
| 2009-05-27 1:17 PM in reply to: #2175921 |
Member  360   Denver, CO | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL I believe that mass swim starts with hundreds of participants is inherently dangerous. I'm not an attorney but I believe that it is possible to call mass swim starts "negligent." I couldn't say that it would rise to the level of gross negligence - but I think that may be the issue here. |
| 2009-05-27 1:18 PM in reply to: #2176089 |
Alpharetta, Georgia Bronze member | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL tkd.teacher - 2009-05-27 1:13 PM I did a little googling, and on a message board called Topix, there was a statement from the MD that supposedly did the mouth to mouth and intubation. She was a SPECTATOR, not on staff, there to watch her husband compete. If that is true, I am astonished that she wasn't named as well. I'd also be interested whether or not she was a Florida resident, as there are licensing issues if she wasn't. Why would she be named in the lawsuit if she was trying to save his life? There are licensing issues for someone trying to save another's life? Interesting. Cause if she stood by and did nothing, that would be violating her oath, no? Why weren't the medical staff on hand doing this? THAT is the real question, and I'm no lawyer, but that seems to be a basis for negligence. Edited by lisac957 2009-05-27 1:20 PM |
| 2009-05-27 1:21 PM in reply to: #2176102 |
Pro 5169 Burbs | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL lisac957 - 2009-05-27 2:18 PM tkd.teacher - 2009-05-27 1:13 PM I did a little googling, and on a message board called Topix, there was a statement from the MD that supposedly did the mouth to mouth and intubation. She was a SPECTATOR, not on staff, there to watch her husband compete. If that is true, I am astonished that she wasn't named as well. I'd also be interested whether or not she was a Florida resident, as there are licensing issues if she wasn't. Why would she be named in the lawsuit if she was trying to save his life? There are licensing issues for someone trying to save another's life? Interesting. Why weren't the medical staff on hand doing this? THAT is the real question, and I'm no lawyer, but that seems to be a basis for negligence. It's been quite a few years since I took Torts I and Torts II, but there are laws governing 'good samaritans.' If, for example, someone has a heart attack and I attempt to render mouth to mouth, but I'm not certified, or do it improperly [gross negligent] I can still be sued. |
| 2009-05-27 1:22 PM in reply to: #2175921 |
| Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL BTW, as pointed out on that other board, accdg to the article http://www.newsherald.com/news/rice-74284-triathlon-lawsuit.html the case is set for trial and NAS et al have already tried to get the case dismissed on the grounds that the risks he encountered were "inherent" in the sport. Apparently the plaintiff had enough evidence, altho the article does not say what it is, to get over Florida's assumption of the risk (waiver) rules. So it will not be thrown out at this point and, absent settlement, a jury will decide. |
| 2009-05-27 1:22 PM in reply to: #2175921 |
Elite 2706  Hurst, Texas | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL I'm with ChrisM on this one. As a lawyer who has worked on both the plaintiffs' and defense side, I can see some potential viable theories for the plaintiffs in this case, as well as several potential defenses for NAS/WTC, etc. The bottom line is, there is nowhere NEAR enough information available at this point to determine whether this is a frivolous lawsuit. |
| 2009-05-27 1:26 PM in reply to: #2176086 |
Expert 1207 Liberty Lake, WA | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL Slidell4life - 2009-05-27 10:12 AM If an athlete trains for 6 months with full intention of participating in a mass start, how can WTC be faulted for hosting a mass start? In 2002 IM Utah hosted a mass start with 3' lake swells and 40mph winds. End result, one dead and the rescuers had to be rescued. It would suck to train 6 mounths and then have the swim cancelled. It would not feel like a real IM without all 3 events. Given the choise between swimming in rough water or taking a DNS most people will swim. Even those that should not. Maybe the best compermise solution is what they did at IMCDA in 2007. They had strong winds and whitecaps. IMNA gave everyone the choice to swim or convert their race into a bike/run event. They also said you could start the swim and then change your mind if you wanted. Most chose to swim, a few did not get in the water, and some bailed after the first lap. By doing this the choice was really in the hands of the individual athletes. |
| 2009-05-27 1:31 PM in reply to: #2176102 |
Elite 3683 Whispering Pines, North Carolina | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL lisac957 - 2009-05-27 2:18 PM tkd.teacher - 2009-05-27 1:13 PM I did a little googling, and on a message board called Topix, there was a statement from the MD that supposedly did the mouth to mouth and intubation. She was a SPECTATOR, not on staff, there to watch her husband compete. If that is true, I am astonished that she wasn't named as well. I'd also be interested whether or not she was a Florida resident, as there are licensing issues if she wasn't. Why would she be named in the lawsuit if she was trying to save his life? There are licensing issues for someone trying to save another's life? Interesting. Cause if she stood by and did nothing, that would be violating her oath, no? Why weren't the medical staff on hand doing this? THAT is the real question, and I'm no lawyer, but that seems to be a basis for negligence. lisa, he was just making an observation as for other factors, we don't know all the details. maybe he had just arrived on the beach and the staff were 300 feet away (in a tent, on their way to meet him). who knows? i just don't see a mass start as negligent. maybe b/c i choose to be a part of it. ? |
| 2009-05-27 1:34 PM in reply to: #2176097 |
Expert 1207 Liberty Lake, WA | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL csibona - 2009-05-27 10:17 AM I believe that mass swim starts with hundreds of participants is inherently dangerous. I'm not an attorney but I believe that it is possible to call mass swim starts "negligent." I couldn't say that it would rise to the level of gross negligence - but I think that may be the issue here. For a weak swimmer which is more dangerous, a mass swim start where you get beat up for the first little bit (unless you start at the back), or a wave start where you get swam over multiple times by multiple waves? |
 2009-05-27 1:36 PM in reply to: #2175921 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2009-05-27 1:38 PM in reply to: #2176167 |
| Champion 10471 Dallas, TX | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL PennState - 2009-05-27 1:36 PM Typical breakdown in responses... most horrified at the suit, some wanting more info. Again, the question *I* have is... does anyone expect more swims to be cancelled due to fear of litigation? Does anyone think their race entry fees will go up? YES to both! Obviously they will start to be more cautious with letting the swim start... and the fees will go up if they need to employ more people on the swim. |
| 2009-05-27 1:39 PM in reply to: #2176151 |
| Alpharetta, Georgia Bronze member | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL tri_d00d - 2009-05-27 1:31 PM lisac957 - 2009-05-27 2:18 PM tkd.teacher - 2009-05-27 1:13 PM I did a little googling, and on a message board called Topix, there was a statement from the MD that supposedly did the mouth to mouth and intubation. She was a SPECTATOR, not on staff, there to watch her husband compete. If that is true, I am astonished that she wasn't named as well. I'd also be interested whether or not she was a Florida resident, as there are licensing issues if she wasn't. Why would she be named in the lawsuit if she was trying to save his life? There are licensing issues for someone trying to save another's life? Interesting. Cause if she stood by and did nothing, that would be violating her oath, no? Why weren't the medical staff on hand doing this? THAT is the real question, and I'm no lawyer, but that seems to be a basis for negligence. lisa, he was just making an observation as for other factors, we don't know all the details. maybe he had just arrived on the beach and the staff were 300 feet away (in a tent, on their way to meet him). who knows? i just don't see a mass start as negligent. maybe b/c i choose to be a part of it. ? Right, and I was just asking a question about his observation. My main question still remains... why did a spectator have to administer CPR and where were the medical staff? And did that have an impact on the eventual outcome? And I wholeheartedly agree that you enter at your own risk, yadda yadda. But you should also be able to assume that the lifeguards and medical staff will be able to administer help in a timely mannor. |
| 2009-05-27 1:43 PM in reply to: #2175921 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2009-05-27 1:55 PM in reply to: #2176167 |
| Extreme Veteran 3177 | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL PennState - 2009-05-27 11:36 AM Typical breakdown in responses... most horrified at the suit, some wanting more info. Again, the question *I* have is... does anyone expect more swims to be cancelled due to fear of litigation? Does anyone think their race entry fees will go up? I think it is possible. I hope it does not happen as I am already having trouble making sure I can budget for a HIM next year and an IM in 2011. (I like toys so it is hard to save money  ) The only other thing is do you think this will make it so a requirement is created for proof of ability prior to the event (say at check in a day or two before the race). Have some sort of proof that you completed a long distance swim (1.2 miles or greater) a long bike and at least a half marathon sometime in the recent past. If you can't prove it they don't let you race. I fear this might end up happening to prevent negligence on the part of the race organizers from letting swimmers/runners/bikers who are "weak" to not participate and thus preventing that one other factor from causing a lawsuit. The logistics seem a little Crazy so I hope not but it is sitting in my mind as an option or result of this... |
| 2009-05-27 2:01 PM in reply to: #2176200 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. Edited by PennState 2009-05-27 2:02 PM |
| 2009-05-27 2:07 PM in reply to: #2175921 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2009-05-27 2:15 PM in reply to: #2175921 |
| Champion 6962 Atlanta, Ga | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL Regarding Mass starts: You only get beat up if you want to get beat up. Nothing says you can't wait a minute or two and wait for the washing machine to pass by. It's your choice to seed yourself improperly and go at it toe to toe (wetsuit to wetsuit) with 2000+ of your best friends. Case in point, at IM MOO the 'start line' extended all the way to the shore. Start on the shore if you're worried. |
| 2009-05-27 2:17 PM in reply to: #2176269 |
| Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL PennState - 2009-05-27 12:07 PM Just one more thought... does a suit like this make you want to be a race director? I doubt they make a lot of money for their efforts, just makes it seem less enticing to me. No? Knowing a RD, I didn't want to be a RD before this. But this one lawsuit -- out of how many IM participants in 2006? no, would not have a bearing. Legal matters are a cost of doing business |
| 2009-05-27 2:20 PM in reply to: #2176305 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2009-05-27 2:44 PM in reply to: #2176076 |
| Expert 2547 The Woodlands, TX | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL jsklarz - 2009-05-27 1:08 PM KSH - 2009-05-27 1:31 PM..... Finally... I would like to see better swim starts for IM's. The mass swim start w/2,000+ people is just dangerous and lends to people being hurt and possibly killed. If people are spread out more, they have more a chance of getting away from a crowd and not being beaten silly while trying to swim. First, any death like this is tragic and none of us should judge why the family is suing. Second, we can look at the merits of the case and the methodology for analyzing the case. In this regard, I'll make 2 lawyer comments (if nothing else to play devil's advocate) and then shut up: the above statement is true and may be a valid reason for finiding negligence (which is a violation of a reasonable standard of care). Thus, the judge (and perhaps a jury) will need to determine whether the start method is reasonable under the circumstances (i.e. why no wave starts, etc.). Also, the doctrine of "assumption of the risk" has largely been replaced with a doctrine called "comparative negligence" whereby the victim's wrongful conduct is weighed against the perpetrator's (tortfeasor) conduct. In Connecticut if one's one misconduct is more than 50%, you don't recover. Sorry to be lawyer guy, but there is a case here: mass starts with thousands of people are dangerous and known to be so. Wave starts reduce the risk and there is a substantial question as to why wave starts are not done in large events like these. Fire away. I keep seeing this on this thread. Where is the proof? Is it scary? Most would say yes, but known to be more dangerous? Nah, Prove it. All the deaths I've read about don't happen at the start. They happen well into the swim or towards the end due to heart attack or fatigue. The Utah death was a freak storm and had nothing to due with the start. In fact I could argue that wave starts pose a greater problem as you constantly have swimmers whose abilities vary greatly clash in the water when waves overlap. The mass start sorts those of like ability right from the start thus eliminating people swimming over each other after the first minute or so. Can't say that about waves. tj Edited by tjfry 2009-05-27 2:45 PM |
| 2009-05-27 2:54 PM in reply to: #2176161 |
| Member 360 Denver, CO | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL T in Liberty Lake - 2009-05-27 12:34 PM csibona - 2009-05-27 10:17 AM I believe that mass swim starts with hundreds of participants is inherently dangerous. I'm not an attorney but I believe that it is possible to call mass swim starts "negligent." I couldn't say that it would rise to the level of gross negligence - but I think that may be the issue here. For a weak swimmer which is more dangerous, a mass swim start where you get beat up for the first little bit (unless you start at the back), or a wave start where you get swam over multiple times by multiple waves? For me, a moderate swimmer who can get caught by multiple waves (almost always one if not two), I think I would prefer the wave start. I have not been a part of a mass start so any comparison is a thought experiment for me. When I have been caught by other waves the swimmers do not appear to approach en masse but with less density that the original wave contingent. I have also raced in time trial starts and find those easier than the wave starts. |
| 2009-05-27 2:55 PM in reply to: #2175921 |
| Master 2447 Marietta, Ga | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL Another sign of the total wussification of our society. Pretty soon, thanks to the bottom-feeding-pond-scum sucking attorneys who file these speculative lawsuits (and the greedy families who are looking to make a quick buck) we won't be able to tie our shoes without first signing a waiver of liability. I absolutely loathe this kind of thing. Brian Moore, you should be embarrassed for brining this suit. I'm sure your good friend, the late Mr. Barney Rice, is turning in his grave thanks to your actions. I sure hope my family has more grace and honor when I'm dead and gone. |
| 2009-05-27 3:33 PM in reply to: #2176258 |
| Regular 104 | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL PennState - 2009-05-27 2:01 PM bachorb - 2009-05-27 2:43 PM The lawsuit does seem silly but if it ultimately results in improved safety at events and more lives being saved then I can't really say I'm against it. If I have to pay $20 extra for a race entry fee in order to save someone's life, so be it. I'll live. I am not saying we don't all take a risk in doing this sport, but it's a shared risk on the part of the participants and the organizers. I mean, fees would be really cheap if they just had NO lifeguards or divers and only let elite swimmers participate in tris. But who wants that? I cringe at all the people on here trying to pontificate about "personal responsibility" - who on here hasn't done something stupid, made a mistake or taken an unnecessary risk? Driving is incredibly dangerous and I know it, but every time I do it I am still thankful that I had to pay a few extra bucks for seatbelts and airbags. Would you accept $1,000 for an IM? $1,500? What would be the limit. If (and that's a big IF) the plaintiffs were to win a large settlement or jury award, it could make it difficult for the race to obtain insurance. What would be the limit you would accept? I would accept race organizers doing a better job to ensure the safety of the athletes. If that means $2500, it means $2500. |
| 2009-05-27 3:38 PM in reply to: #2176183 |
| Elite 4048 Gilbert, Az. | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL lisac957 - 2009-05-27 11:39 AM Right, and I was just asking a question about his observation. My main question still remains... why did a spectator have to administer CPR and where were the medical staff? And did that have an impact on the eventual outcome? And I wholeheartedly agree that you enter at your own risk, yadda yadda. But you should also be able to assume that the lifeguards and medical staff will be able to administer help in a timely mannor. Lisa- The governing principle is called the Good Samaritan act. It's designed to protect medical people from lawsuits as long as they act (and this is a quote) "as a reasonable and prudent person would with similar training in similar circumstances". The medical staff on site can relinquish control to a higher medical authority, in this case it was probably paramedics on site, who heard her say "I'm a doctor, etc etc". They had the patient, were probably starting care, when the bystander MD arrived. (Although I don't know why the doc would be doing mouth to mouth, they should be directing the care, not necessarily performing it.) Intubation (putting a tube in the throat to breathe, for those unfamiliar) is considered an advanced, invasive technique. Basic EMT's are not taught this, paramedics are. (There was an EMT-I, intermediate EMT that could do it, but last I knew that cert was being phased out). Paramedics still cannot do these techniques without communication with their governing medical staff, usually an MD at an ER, since there are certain requirements for life support once some of these techniques are used (Such as intubation). They include a certain amount of time away from a hospital, other things like that. So, even if a paramedic in his civilian car has all the stuff to do an IV, he can't stop at a car accident and hang an IV bag, because he doesn't have contact with his governing body, and he can be hung out to dry in a bad way if something goes wrong. The visiting MD, while certified to do the technique, may or may not be authorized to do it, or licensed in the state. (Intubation is an advanced lifesaving skill {ALS}, and all doctors are not necessarily currently certified in it. It's a good bet your average doc in a family clinic is probably not ALS certified) I'm not saying the doctor was wrong in any way, nor am I implying anything that the paramedics did was wrong. Generally in a lawsuit, they name everybody that they can. If I was the executor/lawyer that brought the suit, and I knew that a bystander MD was the one that put the tube in, I'd be damned sure to name them just in case. (Although IIRC from reading, I think the last section was a blanket kind of thing naming "unknown persons"). John |
| 2009-05-27 3:38 PM in reply to: #2176542 |
| Champion 10471 Dallas, TX | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL BrianK - 2009-05-27 3:33 PM PennState - 2009-05-27 2:01 PM bachorb - 2009-05-27 2:43 PM The lawsuit does seem silly but if it ultimately results in improved safety at events and more lives being saved then I can't really say I'm against it. If I have to pay $20 extra for a race entry fee in order to save someone's life, so be it. I'll live. I am not saying we don't all take a risk in doing this sport, but it's a shared risk on the part of the participants and the organizers. I mean, fees would be really cheap if they just had NO lifeguards or divers and only let elite swimmers participate in tris. But who wants that? I cringe at all the people on here trying to pontificate about "personal responsibility" - who on here hasn't done something stupid, made a mistake or taken an unnecessary risk? Driving is incredibly dangerous and I know it, but every time I do it I am still thankful that I had to pay a few extra bucks for seatbelts and airbags. Would you accept $1,000 for an IM? $1,500? What would be the limit. If (and that's a big IF) the plaintiffs were to win a large settlement or jury award, it could make it difficult for the race to obtain insurance. What would be the limit you would accept? I would accept race organizers doing a better job to ensure the safety of the athletes. If that means $2500, it means $2500. Let's face it though, they provided adequate support for the race. I mean, there can't be a lifeguard for each and every racer. Not to mention, when there are that many people swimming together... it would be hard for someone to even see someone drown. At least in FL the water is clear and divers can watch from below. But in places like Kentucky.. if you go under... no one is going to see it and your body won't be found for days. The issue is not that the race was unsafe... it was. The issue is that someone died... and their family is pissed off and laying blame and trying to get some cash. ONE person died. It's a horrible tragedy... but just one out of thousands. Otherwise... the issue with the mass swim start is a non-issue in this case. I was just speaking in general terms. |
|
|
|
|
View profile
Add to friends
Go to training log
Go to race log
Send a message
View album
CONNECT WITH FACEBOOK