Swimming fast - probably a lot more than just technique

I don't know. I used to be competitive when I was 13-14. I didn't swim in 10-11 years, i'm 3 workouts into the intermediate sprint plan program (hadn't train in 10-11 years). I can now do 1:30/100 metres without much effort for 400+. I am pretty much fit, but not swim fit, take from it what you will, but technique means alot in swimming.


Edited by ex-buzz 2009-08-01 9:50 PM

Congratulations on your swim form!  That's 1/2 the battle. 

The other 1/2....

You get faster in all 3 sports by doing, by training.  How far are you swimming? 

I agree to some extent that it is more than technique.  My coach is now trying to get me used to that feeling pushed feeling more often (that is what it takes for me to be at 1:30/100).  .

I would say the big difference for me is that I hold my technique better now as I get tired ergo I am expending less energy....

Stay tuned... I'll post tomorrrow, after the room stops spinning.

i've never had a real swim lesson since i was about 6.

as i swam more, i paid attention to what my body was doing in the water, what changes effected it in what way, and watched swimmers better than me.
and i swam more, and harder, and then repeated.
tech came with the swimming.

a few things i have noticed.

-you do need to be doing it right, but thats a pretty small part of hte deal
-good swimmers in triathlon and swimming all swim a bit diff, you need the basics down though
-i have seen some swimmers that looked perfect, and were slow as snot, and some that looked downright fugly (john kenny comes to mind) that are fast of balls in open water.
-you need to swim HARD, a lot, to get fast.

I do at least 1km of sprint sets 3-4 times per week in my swim squad that last 3-4km.

If I was doing any less than 3 of them each week, I'd be getting slower at swimming...

My swim coach growing up always used to say 'if you want to swim fast, you gotta swim fast.'  I believe it.  I tend to settle into a slower pace way too easily.  For instance, i can not think and swim 1:30/100 pace for awhile.  Or i can really try and hold a 1:24/100 pace, but even though i *can* hold the 1:24/100 pace, I have to consciously be trying to swim faster to hit it.  Eventually that faster pace does not require as much effort and focus, but it takes conscious & consistent effort swimming at faster paces for that to happen.

agreed.

after you spend a bit of time hitting htose faster paces, it doesnt take as much effort to maintain and stay there, but you need to put in the work to get it first.

over hte past two weeks i have been out of hte pool a bit more than normal trying to get my run under control, and when i get back in even after the time off the swim has not really dropped off at all. a bit of the very high end speed, but thats it. all that work over the winter is paying off;-)

My math is clearly better than my swimming.  It's 35.73% technique and 64.27% just doing lap after lap.

Seriously though, 4 months ago I could not do 25 yards without gassing out.  I just started doing drills (with no outside input on technique) and got to 2:30/100 sustainable for 400+ yards.  Then just last week someone pointed out a problem with my body position and and like that I cut :15  off my 100 time with the same effort.  But as I read the boards/race reports here (and still get passed in the pool) it seems 1:30-1:50/100 range is kind of a sweet spot.  So to get speed I'm guessing there is still room for technique improvement but absolutely no avoiding time in the pool.

So I totally agree with agarose2000.

Thanks to all for the large number of swimming posts I spend alot of time reading them and they are very helpful.

I don't swim at all anymore and I was never any good, so I feel weird posting this but yes, I agree with you. I had the exact same experience -- took several private lessons and was told repeatedly that my form looked good. Sure, there were some tweaks I could work on, but that was it. And yet I was still *painfully* slow. My average pace for a long swim was 2:20-2:30. In fact, I had one coach tell me my form looked great, and when I told him just how slow I was he was shocked and couldn't figure out why that was. He even made me swim a 100 so he could time me and was stunned when all I could manage was a 2:15 or so. He finally just shrugged sadly and said I'd just have to keep swimming a lot and hope I got faster. Another coach (who also said my form was good) told me I should work on my core and build strength.

I noticed the same thing once in a race. I was BOP as usual, and as I was nearing the end I looked up while sighting and saw that all of the other BOPers around me were really struggling -- floating on their backs, dog-paddling, doing God-knows-what kind of stroke. I was literally the only person doing a regular crawl and looking like I wasn't about to drown.

I think that's one thing that gets lost with the swim advice here. Some people are just naturally slow swimmers, just like some people are naturally slow runners or bikers. I worked my butt off trying to get faster with hard intervals, swimming at least three times a week, and I did get faster, but only a very little bit. But hey, if you're going to suck at one part of triathlon, swimming's the way to go! I'm always a BOP swimmer but I'm a very MOP finisher. (I even won my AG once because it was a super-mini tri with a 100y swim. Ha!)

yes technique + swimming lots will make a you a better/faster swimmer. In fact sometimes you just have to swim and swim and swim and certain technique aspects get fixed that way as the more time you spend in the pool you get more 'aha' moments. I personally don't buy the whole "if you swim with poor form you'll only learn how to swim poorly"; if you are swimming 3K+ 5x week trust me many of your issues will improve. Yes if you are someone swimming slower than 1:30ish x 100yds on avg you will gain more speed by improving your technique but also triathletes don't swim enough to begin with to improve.

Practice some technique drills while warming up/cooling down, do long sets, do hard/fast sets and do some long swims (4-5K +) and you will improve your speed. If you can get under water video for analysis you can work more specifically on your technique flaws...

both.

do some sets that make you hurt a little.  do some sets that hurt a lot and make your lungs scream for air.  do some sets that are drills.

I think 10-15% drills is a good number to shoot for.

I agree with your coach....swimming harder and faster will make you faster.

some do say just jupming in the pool and doing laps and drills is fine, so I understand the information issue we face as new simmers....sounds like you got yourself a good coach.

A very timely topic for me. I was lamenting my lack of swim speed the other day. I too just can't seem to get faster. I haven't been to a coach lately, but I think I'm making great strides with my technique, and am a real student of the stroke. TI, youtube of Hackett, Phelps, etc.

I look around the pool and see people who based on their body type, look like they should be going much slower then me. I would get frustrated and work harder with diminishing returns it seemed. It was a rather arrogant assumption, and I was forgetting a couple of things.

1. Regardless of "body type", the person effortlessly banging out fast laps may have been a champion swimmer at one time, or has been putting in the effort for years. In particular I often see this big guy in the pool who is packing a couple of extra pounds, but man can he swim, and fast!

2. I'm a beginner!! What happened to me was I did a couple of sprints this year in which I made the podium both times. When I looked at my splits, I kicked butt on the bike and run, but found that my swim was horrendous. So being the competitive person I suspect most of us are, I felt I should be making faster gains in the element that I only really started this year!! Most of us are from the generation who wants results, and we want them now dammit!!

What I decided to do was slow it down. Go back to the easy pace. Find my balance and good form in the water again. Yep, I'm slow, but I feel good in the water, and the speed WILL come eventually. Probably not before my next and last race this year (oly) but maybe by next year. I have the bike and run to make up for my swim.

Sure, I still do hard sets in the pool, but it is relative to my form. I accept that I am a work in progress and will base my results on my own pb, and not how fast I think I should be going to keep up with the swimmer in the next lane. I needed to remember that when I started in January, I couldn't 50m without turning the lap tank into a jacuzzi with all the wasted arm and leg thrashing.

Sorry about the length, but to sum it up, for me the technique is paramount. Once I have the muscle memory for good technique I will start trying to get faster. I get an occasional taste of it where I feel I have tremendous speed. I can actually feel the water slipping over me like some kind of ships hull. It feels awesome...and then I lose it.

First you get good, and then you get fast!



Edited by jellyman 2009-08-02 9:46 AM

How many yards per week were you putting in?  It may not have been enough to see improvements.  Even when I was 10 years old, I was swimming 20,000 yds/week.  High school, in the 25,000-35,000/wk range.  A lot of triathletes swim 3x/week for 2000-3000 yds per session.  Swimming is no different than the other two sports in that if you want to get faster, you have to put in the time.  I am a slow runner & slow cyclist and I know it's going to take years of consistency, and more consistency than 3x/week if I really want to see speed gains.  The question for most triathletes is since minimal time is spent in the swim in a race, if their time is better spent improving their bike or run vs. spending the time in the pool.

Is your technique "holding up" when you get fatigued???   I know when I'm getting tired it's harder to maintain good form and I slow down.  

Great technique only will not make you fast.. you do need to push yourself...

also are those times you listed OWS or pool swims,, there is a bit of difference if you are not swimming straight

Plus those little fine tunings can make a big difference

Edited by Gaarryy 2009-08-02 10:32 AM

I'm with you jellyman.  I think the advice given throughout this thread is relative to the differing points at which each person is in the process. 

IMO, a beginner (like myself) should be focused on safety and form/efficiency.  Practice form and establishing an ability to handle the distance in order to assure they can safely complete the swim portion at a reasonable pace. Sure, it may be slow but getting there is better than burning out half way and panicking. Unlike the bike and run, there is not coasting or walking. 

I believe that if a beginner jumps too quickly into worrying about speed, they can remove focus on their form and get into sloppy flailing too quickly.  I believe that it may be best to continue to focus on a gradual increase in speed while reinforcing form to establish the muscle memory.  I'll admit I'm slow now. I've been working on form for weeks and my first mile took 49 min. LOL; but I felt great when I was done and it was a confidence builder that completion was a non-issue and my form was solid.  I did another mile less than a week later and it dropped to 40 min. My goal is to finish between 30-35 min and right now, with 5 weeks before taper, I feel confident that will happen.

It's just my personal thought but I saw the fastest swimmers beat the slowest swimmers by as much as 15 min. I noticed that the spread in the bike and run was 30 min. each.  That tells me that for the beginner, focus on efficiency in the pool first.  There is an hour to be saved in the other two events. Once you are there, then worry about that other 15 min in the swim.

So this thread is started by one person who after one lesson believes that the collective wisdom around here that technique is the most important thing, is wrong.  After this one lesson it is believed that hard work and training is understated when it comes to swimming.  Okay.

  Personally, I think hard work on this forum is a given, and that the group is right, technique is the most important thing in swimming.  Water is simply too dense for it not to be.  Think about how much faster you can go on the same wattage by being in a good aero position on the bike, through the air.  Through the water, technique absolutely critical. 

Look at the guy a few posts ahead of me.  Hasn't been swimming in years and is Way faster than you and me.  Why?  He has great technique.  Now here is where we agree.  He got that great technique by swimming A LOT as a kid.  So yes, you do have to swim a lot to get that good technique, you can't just read some books, take some lessons, etc, you have to put in the time to make the proper technique part of you and yes you will build up strength and endurance and speed from that as well.



Edited by dscottmd 2009-08-02 11:00 AM

Agreed...Swim training regardless of age is largely focused on technique...I remember doing tonnes when I was 10 and tonnes when I was 20...

The reason I can just hop back in the water after taking 3yrs off and still be able to maintain a fast pace 1:30/100m is because of my technique...I can sure tell you its NOT how good of shape I am...I gained a significant amount of weight and really wasn't doing a whole lot of aerobic activity outside of the pool. Sure, I probably have a crazy "bank" of aerobic fitness to pull on, even three years after the fact, but there is no way I would be able to just get in the water and hold that pace if I didn't have such good technique....

Sure technique is only part of the picture...but its a pretty large part...and you have to put time in the water with GOOD technique to get faster and be able to get to the front of the pack in the swim...

Edited by mndymond 2009-08-02 12:13 PM

i think this is being over complicated for the most part.

you need to have good/decent form in order to not hurt yourself, and to be moving in the right direction,

but after that, you need to swim more, and swim harder.

tech will only get you so far, and you can work on BOTH at the same time.

personally, i think a good idea is to after your warm up, include a few 100yrds of drills, and maybe a few more at the end of the main set.

do the hard work, but put a bit of time into the drills/form work within the workout.

You beat me to it. This is similar to the other thread we had last week regarding just swimming long and slow. Form and technique are the foundation for swimming. Once the basics have been established and learned, they should always be considered and tweaked. Swimming fast incorporates technique and form as well as endurance and just plain swimming hard. That's why I recommend to people who want to become faster over short and long distances to train with a lot of variable workouts which includes swimming long and easy, swimming short and fast and some swimming working on form. They are all mutually inclusive. When I swim fast, I still think and work on form.

Could not disagree more.

I was a good competitive swimmer from age 5-12. Then I swam seriously at my last go at triathon for about six years including some stroke analysis/coaching. After that, I didn't swim one yard for 15 years. In my return to triathlon, my first workout was 400 yards total in a hotel pool in Vegas. On my second workout (I think it was the 2nd), To get myself a baseline, I swam a 300 yard time trial at 1:33/100y pace (at 9600' altitude). Zero swim fitness, all technique. Anecdotal sure, but I know lots of old fat out-of-shape ex-high school swimmers who can swim < 1:30/100y easily with zero fitness. Sure, me (and the others) tire quickly but gaining fitness to maintain that pace is just a simple matter of swimming some workouts. (It comes back fast).

IMO, one's technique dictates how fast they can swim with zero fitness. For me, that's about 1:30/100y at sea level. To get faster from there, (like everyone) I need to swim a bunch of yards and hone my technique a bit. Someone who has better technique, say a college level swimmer, may be able to knock off 1:15/100y with zero fitness.

IMO, one's technique also dictates their potential. If you are pushing water down causing your legs to sink, I don't care how many yards you swim, you are not going to improve much. Maybe you'll luck out and figure out what you're doing (unlikely), but a quality instructor should be able to see the flaw in about five seconds, and then most importantly tell you when you're not doing it anymore. People's stroke flaws feel correct to them and thus they'll always revert back to those flaws unless told otherwise (just like skiing).

In your case, you mention that your instructor said you just need to "tweak" your stroke a little (paraphrased). IMO, the part that you're missing is that those "tweaks" are incredibly important to swimming efficiency considering the density of water. He also said you need yards. IMO, if you have a quality instructor then those yards are going to really help you because you should be practicing good technique, building it into your muscle memory, and of course getting more fit.

However, my problem with high yardage swim workouts for beginners is that:

1) They could be practicing and cementing bad technique into their muscle memory that could be hard or impossible to eliminate. It happens in skiing to about 95% of skiers. Again, a good stroke instructor will not let that happen so the yards will be quality yards.

2) Long workouts are intimidating for a lot of people (me) which makes them hard to show up for. IMO, scheduling a quick 20 minute swim workout (more often) all using good technique is far easier to get motivated for. And then often you'll feel good and go longer.

Edited by breckview 2009-08-02 12:45 PM

What's also a given on this forum is that it is okay for people to ask questions that challenge the collective wisdom, as long as it is done in a respectful manner, which the OP did.  The collective wisdom isn't always right... in this case, yeah, technique is critical as you said, but life will get boring if no one ever questions anything.