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2009-08-12 10:53 AM

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Subject: Cycling Power/Aerodynamics and TT

Just got this emailed to me not too long ago from Cyclops.  Makes me want to train more and more with a power meter on my bike to train even more efficiently.  Bummer they are more then 4x the cost of my bike.

Link: http://www.saris.com/athletes/PermaLink,guid,572c0515-e51f-4903-92e6-127ed289cb4a.aspx

CycleOps Power News

Time Trailing: What a Difference Equipment Can Make

A 40 kilometer time trial is a great test of a cyclist's fitness. However, it is not sheer power that guarantees the fastest time in a race against the clock. Power moves a cyclist forward by overcoming the three main factors that resist a cyclist's forward motion: gravity, aerodynamics (wind), and friction (rolling resistance).


This past Saturday was host to the annual Wisconsin State Time Trial Championships, near Milwaukee, WI, on the famous (and flat) Double Bong TT course . Since we at CycleOps are headquartered in Madison, Wisconsin, we were able to get some power files from the Men's Pro/1/2 race to see a real-world example of how the best power output doesn't always equate to the best time.


Ryan Baumann, a Trek-Livestrong U23 rider and native Wisconsinite; Matthew Busche, local up-and-coming cat 1 racer, and Jordan Roessingh, strong cat 1 racer with a wife, a dog, and a day job agreed to provide their power files for our comparison. Let's take a look at the data and the results.


Ryan Baumann chose to race with no special aero-equipment. He raced "Eddy Merckx" style with a road bike, a road helmet, Bontrager Aelous 5.0 (50mm deep) wheelset, and a skinsuit. He weighs 74 kilograms and is about 2" taller than Busche and Roessingh. He turned out an impressive power average of 400 watts (5.41 watts/kg).




Matthew Busche raced with a time trial bike (Trek Equinox 7), a rear disc wheel, a Bontrager Aeolus 9.0 (90mm deep) front wheel, a time trial helmet, and a skinsuit. He weighs in at 70 kilograms and is the same height as Roessingh. Busche's average power was 347 watts (4.95 watts/kg). It is also relevant to note that Busche lost about 30 seconds by riding off course mid-race.




Roessingh is the same height and weight as Busche and used all the same equipment as Busche - the only difference being that he used an Bontrager Aeolus 6.5 (65mm deep) front wheel. He averaged 271 watts (3.87 watts/kg) for the 40 km distance.




Any guesses at who finished first?


In the end, the riders' times for the 40 kilometer course were as follows:


Busche: 0:50:57
Roessingh: 0:53:33
Baumann: 0:53:47


While Baumann had the largest power output by far, Busche came in with the fastest time by a large margin, winning the State TT with the best time on the day. The combination of his high average power and full TT gear was enough to propel him to a 29mph average, and a smoking time of 50:57, despite the detour


Looking deeper into their performances, though, is more revealing. Jordan's time deficit to Busche was only 2:36, while his power deficit was a huge 76W. His relatively small time loss was due to the fact that Roessingh had a more aerodynamic position on his bike. Given their weight, speed, and power, we can calculate how aero (the product of their frontal area and coefficient of drag) each rider was. For example, if Roessingh wanted to be able to match Busche's time, his superior position meant that he would only have had to produce about 315W, more than 10% less power than Busche put out. Baumann, on the other hand, was a comparative sail, as he would have had to put out almost 470W to match Busche.


This comparison is a great illustration of how big of a difference TT gear and body position makes in putting together a great time trial. To Baumann's credit, holding 400 watts for nearly an hour is a monumental achievement for a cyclist, and with his 1292 kJ's of work (compared to Busche's 1061 and Roessingh's 872), one could certainly argue that he got the best workout that day.



2009-08-12 10:58 AM
in reply to: #2343819

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Expert
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Subject: RE: Cycling Power/Aerodynamics and TT
My FTP (sustainable power for 1 hour) is 301W on my road bike, and somewhere around 250-260 on my tri bike. I'm a little faster on my tri bike at 250W than I am on my road bike at 300W.

That'll teach you to make fun of all my aero bling!
2009-08-12 11:08 AM
in reply to: #2343837

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Subject: RE: Cycling Power/Aerodynamics and TT
thats a pretty neat article to have sent out.

my power output die not a lot diff from a road to tri bike position, maybe 10-15 watts, but i am going MUCH faster on the TT bike.

threshold is around 260 for me, and that puts me in the 26mph range on flat ground.
sitting up that would knock me down quite a bit.
2009-08-12 11:11 AM
in reply to: #2343837

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Subject: RE: Cycling Power/Aerodynamics and TT
DrPete - 2009-08-12 10:58 AM My FTP (sustainable power for 1 hour) is 301W on my road bike, and somewhere around 250-260 on my tri bike. I'm a little faster on my tri bike at 250W than I am on my road bike at 300W.

That'll teach you to make fun of all my aero bling!
just out of curiosity, how much do you weight and how tall are you?

btw, I am faster on my tri bike for sure but my positions on both bikes is pretty similar when on the drops. My 60 min power is not significantly different from one bike to the next though.

OP - with the new wireless systems from saris you can get a wired PT for 500-600 or less if used...
2009-08-12 11:14 AM
in reply to: #2343877

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Subject: RE: Cycling Power/Aerodynamics and TT
JorgeM - 2009-08-12 12:11 PM
DrPete - 2009-08-12 10:58 AM My FTP (sustainable power for 1 hour) is 301W on my road bike, and somewhere around 250-260 on my tri bike. I'm a little faster on my tri bike at 250W than I am on my road bike at 300W.

That'll teach you to make fun of all my aero bling!
just out of curiosity, how much do you weight and how tall are you?

btw, I am faster on my tri bike for sure but my positions on both bikes is pretty similar when on the drops. My 60 min power is not significantly different from one bike to the next though.

OP - with the new wireless systems from saris you can get a wired PT for 500-600 or less if used...


I weigh entirely too much-- 6'2, 210 lbs. Working on it.

I've also been tweaking my position a little bit and need to re-test my FTP because I think it's gone up with a combination of fine-tuning my position and just spending a lot of time on my tri bike.
2009-08-12 11:19 AM
in reply to: #2343887

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Subject: RE: Cycling Power/Aerodynamics and TT
just something else to think about.

position can have a HUGE effect on these numbers and how fast you are going to go.

i dont have wildly high power output for my size, after the next test might crack 270watts, but i am moving fairly fast off that due mainly to positioning and not being a huge person.

i;ve done a lot of playing around with my position over the last year and have been able to pick up over a mph on the same course simply from changing saddle and bar position around.
thats a lot of extra speed for no extra training.


2009-08-12 11:29 AM
in reply to: #2343877

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Subject: RE: Cycling Power/Aerodynamics and TT



OP - with the new wireless systems from saris you can get a wired PT for 500-600 or less if used...[/QUOTE]

Jorge... have any place in particular I should be looking?

2009-08-12 11:30 AM
in reply to: #2343837

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Subject: RE: Cycling Power/Aerodynamics and TT

DrPete - 2009-08-12 11:58 AM My FTP (sustainable power for 1 hour) is 301W on my road bike, and somewhere around 250-260 on my tri bike. I'm a little faster on my tri bike at 250W than I am on my road bike at 300W.

That'll teach you to make fun of all my aero bling!

Pete what does FTP stand for?

2009-08-12 11:34 AM
in reply to: #2343946

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Subject: RE: Cycling Power/Aerodynamics and TT
Functional Threshold Power = the power output you can sustain for 60 min.

its the number all of your other workouts are based off of
2009-08-12 12:09 PM
in reply to: #2343819

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Cycling Power/Aerodynamics and TT
god this is awsome...i wish i could have a power meter...they are just so expensive...$3k is too much. 


so what i DON"T understand is how a rider that puts on ave for 60 min 400 watts vs rider that is putting 350 watts come in 2:30 min slower. 

is that the part where we see the difference in TT vs roadie and being in a more aerodynamic position?

Edited by trix 2009-08-12 12:11 PM
2009-08-12 12:11 PM
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Subject: RE: Cycling Power/Aerodynamics and TT
you can find power taps from 400-600....... you dont need an SRM pro to have a PM.


2009-08-12 12:13 PM
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Subject: RE: Cycling Power/Aerodynamics and TT
newbz - 2009-08-12 12:11 PM you can find power taps from 400-600....... you dont need an SRM pro to have a PM.


i don't have a clue about power taps, can you give me a link to the taps you mention for 400-600...because i think i would probably spend that money towards power tap rather then disc wheel.   (already have 80 mm fp on my bike)

Edited by trix 2009-08-12 12:13 PM
2009-08-12 12:20 PM
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Subject: RE: Cycling Power/Aerodynamics and TT
Dlaxman31 - 2009-08-12 11:29 AM



OP - with the new wireless systems from saris you can get a wired PT for 500-600 or less if used...[/QUOTE]

Jorge... have any place in particular I should be looking?


http://www.competitivecyclist.com/road-bikes/product-accessories/2009-cycleops-power-tap-compdt-rr-1.1-complete-wheel-5905.44.1.html

$659.99 new with wheel!
2009-08-12 12:28 PM
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Subject: RE: Cycling Power/Aerodynamics and TT
JorgeM - 2009-08-12 1:20 PM
Dlaxman31 - 2009-08-12 11:29 AM



OP - with the new wireless systems from saris you can get a wired PT for 500-600 or less if used...[/QUOTE]

Jorge... have any place in particular I should be looking?


http://www.competitivecyclist.com/road-bikes/product-accessories/2009-cycleops-power-tap-compdt-rr-1.1-complete-wheel-5905.44.1.html

$659.99 new with wheel!


That's it?!!!  I thought they were a couple K too.   Longhorn or a new fun toy that will not lie when you coast?   
2009-08-12 12:29 PM
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Subject: RE: Cycling Power/Aerodynamics and TT
at that price you will ahve to look used or clearance, check trisports.com if they still carry them,
ebay, craigslist, the classifieds here, and the classifieds on slowtwitch.com often have them for good prices.

power taps are mounted in hte hub of a wheel vs in the BB/crank like SRM/ergomo.


yes this is there you see the diff in the positions used, and to some extent the bike and wheel choices that are made.

as an example. i weigh about hte same as one of my training partners, close to the same height, biek, wheels, etc. he puts out approx 310 watts for a race that length, i do approx 266, and i routinely beat him by a substantial amount due to the diff in position.
2009-08-12 12:34 PM
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Subject: RE: Cycling Power/Aerodynamics and TT
gopennstate - 2009-08-12 11:28 AM

JorgeM - 2009-08-12 1:20 PM
Dlaxman31 - 2009-08-12 11:29 AM



OP - with the new wireless systems from saris you can get a wired PT for 500-600 or less if used...[/QUOTE]

Jorge... have any place in particular I should be looking?


http://www.competitivecyclist.com/road-bikes/product-accessories/2009-cycleops-power-tap-compdt-rr-1.1-complete-wheel-5905.44.1.html

$659.99 new with wheel!


That's it?!!! I thought they were a couple K too. Longhorn or a new fun toy that will not lie when you coast?



get the toy, you know you want it;-)


2009-08-12 12:35 PM
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Subject: RE: Cycling Power/Aerodynamics and TT
Dlaxman31 - 2009-08-12 11:30 AM

DrPete - 2009-08-12 11:58 AM My FTP (sustainable power for 1 hour) is 301W on my road bike, and somewhere around 250-260 on my tri bike. I'm a little faster on my tri bike at 250W than I am on my road bike at 300W.

That'll teach you to make fun of all my aero bling!

Pete what does FTP stand for?

as Newbz posted FTP = functional power threshold a term suggested by A Coggan which roughly is the maximum power one could generate during an all out effort for 60 min. This power avg is closely related to the maximum lactate steady state which among other things is defined as is defined as the highest steady state exercise level one can maintain while also maintaining an equilibrium between the elimination of blood lactate and the diffusion of lactate into the blood. MLSS is an excellent tool for assessing fitness level, predicting endurance performance, and designing training and nutritional programs.

You can use % of your FTP to train at specific intensities that will optimize certain training adaptations, it will allow you measure intensity in real time, track progress, define pacing strategies, using kJ you can design fueling plans, using torque/watts you can estimate efficiency and better yet with some time, good conditions, some math and some known variable you can use it to test your position, get CdA and other cool stuff.
2009-08-12 12:36 PM
in reply to: #2344114

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Subject: RE: Cycling Power/Aerodynamics and TT

gopennstate - 2009-08-12 1:28 PM
JorgeM - 2009-08-12 1:20 PM
Dlaxman31 - 2009-08-12 11:29 AM



OP - with the new wireless systems from saris you can get a wired PT for 500-600 or less if used...[/QUOTE]

Jorge... have any place in particular I should be looking?


http://www.competitivecyclist.com/road-bikes/product-accessories/2009-cycleops-power-tap-compdt-rr-1.1-complete-wheel-5905.44.1.html

$659.99 new with wheel!


That's it?!!!  I thought they were a couple K too.   Longhorn or a new fun toy that will not lie when you coast?   

 

I agree with Jenn.  Man I need to shave up some cash or maybe a nice Xmas/bday gift...

2009-08-12 12:38 PM
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Subject: RE: Cycling Power/Aerodynamics and TT

Great article and questions, thanks!  I now have this on my Tri short list!

2009-08-12 12:47 PM
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Subject: RE: Cycling Power/Aerodynamics and TT
Great article; constructed in a manner that a total noob such as myself can comprehend it.  Now I want some new gear
2009-08-12 3:11 PM
in reply to: #2344131

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Subject: RE: Cycling Power/Aerodynamics and TT
Of all the things I've bought for my bike the power meters have been the most helpful/useful at making me faster, that's for sure. It keeps you honest during your intervals, keeps your rest days restful, really shows you your strengths and weaknesses, and takes away all the variables that can mess with HR or even perceived exertion.

Just to throw it out there, I've been very happy with my Quarq Cinqo/Garmin 310XT combo. It's more expensive than a powertap, but a lot cheaper than the SRM. The advantage is that it's crank-based like the SRM, so you can use whatever wheel you want.


2009-08-12 7:25 PM
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Subject: RE: Cycling Power/Aerodynamics and TT
Can someone elaborate on the power output differences between a road bike and a tri bike?  I'm seeing some posts indicating that they don't experience much of a difference between the two and some that see a drop in power going from a road to tri bike.  Not talking the aero aspect, just power.  Why wouldn't the power output be relatively equal?  Or why can't roughly equal power be generated on a tri bike?

2009-08-12 7:42 PM
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Subject: RE: Cycling Power/Aerodynamics and TT
in some cases, the position diff are enough that you are more cramped up, bent over, chest closed, etc, one or all may be the case.

i know for me there is an area where my power drops off from the road bike, but i will be faster due to the arro benifits, but after a point its not worth it.

each person will need to experiment a bit to find these areas.
2009-08-12 7:48 PM
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Subject: RE: Cycling Power/Aerodynamics and TT
newbz - 2009-08-12 8:42 PM  i know for me there is an area where my power drops off from the road bike, but i will be faster due to the arro benifits


power drops off - is this while still trying to work at same rate as on a road bike, or is the power down because your effort is down (because you are faster due to the aero considerations) ?
2009-08-12 8:35 PM
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Elite
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Subject: RE: Cycling Power/Aerodynamics and TT
Am I the only one who is skeptical of claims talking about "time trailing"
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