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2009-09-21 6:20 PM

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Subject: Looks like I cheated

Looks like I had 4 min. added to my total time.  Dropped me a spot in the AG.  Not a huge deal, but now I am curious about what I did.  I read in the athlete guide that I was supposed to find the officials and ask if I had been issued a penalty after the race.  If so, I had an hour to protest from what I can tell.  I did not, and will never win a race, but was excited to have finished 3rd in my AG (now 4th).  I emailed the race (general info. address) but have not heard back yet.  The only time I would have been close to anyone on the course was when passing, cornering, or when on the bombed out sections of the road.  The only things I did not take from start to finish were bottles that were thrown at the propper time along the course.

What really made me mad was the fact that the 1 guy working the changing tent in T2 lost my T2 bag.  I had to spend 4-5 minutes myself looking for my stuff.  Finally, I found it. 

Question is, should I expect to ever here from the race (REDMAN) people about why I was penalized?  Any hope to challenge this even though I know I should have checked after the race with the officials and done so right then?  My first 140.6 race, just a little bitter on the ending, but happy to have it under my belt.



2009-09-21 6:28 PM
in reply to: #2418711

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Subject: RE: Looks like I cheated
99% of the time a time penalty is drafting.  May have just been in the wrong place at the wrong time when an official came by.  I got busted for crossing the double yellow last year while making a pass and the person swerved over some.  For two seconds I was over the line and in that instant there was an official, so I got nailed for it.

But it didn't cost me a podium slot.  So it doesn't suck as bad as your penalty.
2009-09-21 6:58 PM
in reply to: #2418715

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Subject: RE: Looks like I cheated
There was one section that was a "no passing zone"  any chance you could have passed someone there?
2009-09-21 7:22 PM
in reply to: #2418711

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Subject: RE: Looks like I cheated
I think that was only on the street (block or so) to and from the lake road.  If so, I know I did not on the way out, almost positive (don't recall exactly, but pretty sure I was just happy to have a lap done) on the way in from the first lap.  I know I did not on the way out for lap 2 or in from lap 2 ( I was alone). 

Hope I hear something from the RD or someone on this.  I know I can't do anything about it now, but would really like to know what I "did"
2009-09-21 9:51 PM
in reply to: #2418711

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Subject: RE: Looks like I cheated
i would email them. I raced the oly and had sent a email a day before the race with a question and actually got 2 replies (the 2nd to reinforce the 1st). Seems like they are on top of things.
 
2009-09-22 6:34 AM
in reply to: #2418711

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Subject: RE: Looks like I cheated
4:00 minute penalty for rule infraction 5.10a, drafting.

 

Here is the description of what the referee saw: “#1053, male, orange top, black bike—rider moved within less than 2 bike lengths of leading rider, stayed at this distance for about 5 seconds, then moved back to more than 3 bike lengths and did not execute a pass for at least the next 50 seconds.” 

By the rules, once you have entered the “draft zone” (defined as three bike lengths) you must continue to execute the pass within 15 seconds. 

LESSON LEARNED- my fault, but sucks to lose a podium spot for 5 seconds



2009-09-22 7:39 AM
in reply to: #2418711

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Subject: RE: Looks like I cheated

You entered the draft zone within 3 bike lengths for a whopping 5 seconds, then backed off over the 3 bike lengths and was penalized?

I thought you were safe provided you either make the pass in the alotted time or fall back 3 bike lengths.

Wish there were some officials at my HIM a week ago they would've been busy.  Bummer on the penalties.

2009-09-22 7:43 AM
in reply to: #2418711

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Subject: RE: Looks like I cheated
This actually raises another question for me.  What if you cant pass?  As been discussed on this board before,  some ppl will accelerate if someone tries to pass them, if the pass isn't complete, they have to drop back and wait.  I thought the rule was that if you cant execute the pass in 15 seconds, you have to drop back by 3 bike lengths and then not try again for 30 seconds.  Im not an RD, but thats how I always understood the rule.  So according to this officials interpritation of the rule, everyone who couldnt complete a pass should have gotten a drafting penalty.
2009-09-22 7:59 AM
in reply to: #2419403

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Subject: RE: Looks like I cheated
ratherbesnowboarding - 2009-09-22 8:43 AM This actually raises another question for me.  What if you cant pass?  As been discussed on this board before,  some ppl will accelerate if someone tries to pass them, if the pass isn't complete, they have to drop back and wait.  I thought the rule was that if you cant execute the pass in 15 seconds, you have to drop back by 3 bike lengths and then not try again for 30 seconds.  Im not an RD, but thats how I always understood the rule.  So according to this officials interpritation of the rule, everyone who couldnt complete a pass should have gotten a drafting penalty.


That official would be right. If you initiate a pass and enter another cyclists draft zone, it's your responsibility to complete the pass. From the USAT Rule Book:

5.10e
. Passing. A participant who approaches another cyclist from the rear or from another unfavorable position
bears primary responsibility for avoiding a position foul even if the cyclist being approached alters speed. A
participant must not attempt to pass another cyclist unless adequate space is available and the athlete is
confident of his/her ability to pass the other cyclist.
All passing is to be done to the left of the cyclist being
overtaken unless otherwise specified.

5.10h Exceptions.A participant may enter the drafting zone without penalty only under the following conditions:
(1) When entering the drafting zone from the rear, closing the gap, and overtaking all within no more than 15
seconds.
.....
2009-09-22 8:32 AM
in reply to: #2419403

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Subject: RE: Looks like I cheated
ratherbesnowboarding - 2009-09-22 7:43 AM This actually raises another question for me.  What if you cant pass?  As been discussed on this board before,  some ppl will accelerate if someone tries to pass them, if the pass isn't complete, they have to drop back and wait.  I thought the rule was that if you cant execute the pass in 15 seconds, you have to drop back by 3 bike lengths and then not try again for 30 seconds.  Im not an RD, but thats how I always understood the rule.  .


You understand incorrectly, an are confusing and combining rules. The rule for being overtaken says that you have to drop back three lengths befrore re-passing:

5.10g. Being Overtaken. When the leading edge of the front wheel of one cyclist passes beyond the front wheel of another cyclist, the second cyclist has been "overtaken" within the meaning of these Rules. A cyclist who has been overtaken bears primary responsibility for avoiding a position foul and must immediately move to the rear and out of the drafting zone of the passing cyclist. The overtaken cyclist shall first move completely out of the drafting zone of the other cyclist before attempting to re-pass the other cyclist.

So according to this officials interpritation of the rule, everyone who couldnt complete a pass should have gotten a drafting penalty.


Yes. If you enter the draft zone and fail to complete your pass witthin 15 seconds, you can be penalized.

2009-09-22 8:57 AM
in reply to: #2418711

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Subject: RE: Looks like I cheated
Thank you both for the clarification


2009-09-22 9:51 AM
in reply to: #2418711

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Subject: RE: Looks like I cheated

that's really a bummer about the penalty!  to tell you the truth I am surprised that drafting was called during the race.  I did not see very many officials at all and for the most part it appeared that riders were riding within the rules.  Unlike other races (5430) where there is all kinds of drafting going on and very few get called for it!

 

 

2009-09-22 10:05 AM
in reply to: #2418711

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Subject: RE: Looks like I cheated
That stinks. Thanks for posting this, because I hadn't read the finer points of it in a while.

It is tough to react quickly enough in some of these situations where it's crowded.

I guess if you stay far enough to the left that you are not in the draft zone, you can try to pass and then drop back without penalty.

I wish the officials would stop nitpicking this kind of stuff and go after the peletons, though. People who are genuinely trying to do the right thing and make a mistake, well yes, I guess you get called for penalties like that or fouls in other sports, too. But it is irritating to see this, and then get passed by a paceline later.  I also think it can be tough to estimate bike lengths or 2 feet to the side when so much else is going on. It's not like there is something that lights up when you get too close.
2009-09-22 12:27 PM
in reply to: #2418711

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Subject: RE: Looks like I cheated
I guess if you stay far enough to the left that you are not in the draft zone, you can try to pass and then drop back without penalty.

I hope you are right.  Is a bit unnerving that if the cyclist in front of me decides to accelerate hard and I can't pass them I could be penalized.  I am usually not an AG placement kinda of guy so it doesn't make that much difference to me.

One of my races I was about to pass (my front wheel to their back wheel) when I saw some huge cracks in the road, broke off the pass and backed off.  I decided I liked living broken-bone free too much to risk the pass.  I guess I could have been penalized for that.  But I guess I could have than challenged it and gave my explanation?

2009-09-22 12:44 PM
in reply to: #2418711

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Subject: RE: Looks like I cheated
Sorry about your penalty, but thank you for posting. This is my first year racing and I learned something new today. I misunderstood this rule and also thought you could drop back if you could not complete the pass.
2009-09-22 1:02 PM
in reply to: #2418711

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Subject: RE: Looks like I cheated
I wonder if I technically broke this rule too.  I was going up a hill (my weak point).  As another cyclist approached on my left, I moved well onto the shoulder to get out of his way.  As we made it to the top of the hill, he was a few bike lengths in front of me.  I assume he recognized that as a heavier cyclist, I would move faster down the hill so he said, "let me know if you want to pass going downhill (as he pointed to the right).  I said, "yeah, I move a lot better downhill."  I accellerated past him and went down the hill.  He was several bike lengths in front of me but I passed on the right after our clear communication. 

Was that wrong according to the rules?  I'm guessing that technically, I should have passed him on the left?


2009-09-22 1:08 PM
in reply to: #2418711

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Subject: RE: Looks like I cheated
Sucks to be penalized. Sorry to hear it happened to you.

I have only done smaller races (100-600 participants) and I think in these the only penalties have been for helmet violations and some unsafe dismounts to T2. They talk about drafting in the pre-race meeting but I think that unless you are, brazen about it, in the draft zone for a looong time or you cause an accident you pretty much won't get penalized for it.

I need to be careful because I am a lazy passer. I come up on somebody with out changing power output and if I am passing someone who is only slightly slower than me, I am sure I am in the zone too long.

Edited by bruehoyt 2009-09-22 1:09 PM
2009-09-22 1:24 PM
in reply to: #2420206

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Subject: RE: Looks like I cheated
Pector55 - 2009-09-22 1:02 PM I wonder if I technically broke this rule too.  I was going up a hill (my weak point).  As another cyclist approached on my left, I moved well onto the shoulder to get out of his way.  As we made it to the top of the hill, he was a few bike lengths in front of me.  I assume he recognized that as a heavier cyclist, I would move faster down the hill so he said, "let me know if you want to pass going downhill (as he pointed to the right).  I said, "yeah, I move a lot better downhill."  I accellerated past him and went down the hill.  He was several bike lengths in front of me but I passed on the right after our clear communication. 

Was that wrong according to the rules?  I'm guessing that technically, I should have passed him on the left?

 Any reason you couldn't have passed to the left?


e. Passing. A participant who approaches another cyclist from the rear or from another unfavorable position bears primary responsibility for avoiding a position foul even if the cyclist being approached alters speed. A participant must not attempt to pass another cyclist unless adequate space is available and the athlete is confident of his/her ability to pass the other cyclist. All passing is to be done to the left of the cyclist being overtaken unless otherwise specified.



Edited by the bear 2009-09-22 1:27 PM
2009-09-22 1:27 PM
in reply to: #2420206

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Subject: RE: Looks like I cheated
Pector55 - 2009-09-22 2:02 PM I wonder if I technically broke this rule too.  I was going up a hill (my weak point).  As another cyclist approached on my left, I moved well onto the shoulder to get out of his way.  As we made it to the top of the hill, he was a few bike lengths in front of me.  I assume he recognized that as a heavier cyclist, I would move faster down the hill so he said, "let me know if you want to pass going downhill (as he pointed to the right).  I said, "yeah, I move a lot better downhill."  I accellerated past him and went down the hill.  He was several bike lengths in front of me but I passed on the right after our clear communication. 

Was that wrong according to the rules?  I'm guessing that technically, I should have passed him on the left?


Always always always pass on the left. After he finished passing you up the hill he should have moved over so you are riding behind him the appropriate distance.

One issue I struggle with is some riders when you try to pass them they speed up which makes the having to complete the pass difficult. The head referee talked about this during his talk at IM Canada that women often complain to him that men will speed up instead of dropping back when a women is passing a guy.

Really if someone is passing you don't speed up, follow the rules allow the person to complete the pass, drop back then you can you legally repass them.
2009-09-22 1:34 PM
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Subject: RE: Looks like I cheated
ahohl - 2009-09-22 10:05 AM That stinks. Thanks for posting this, because I hadn't read the finer points of it in a while.

It is tough to react quickly enough in some of these situations where it's crowded.

I guess if you stay far enough to the left that you are not in the draft zone, you can try to pass and then drop back without penalty.

I wish the officials would stop nitpicking this kind of stuff and go after the peletons, though. People who are genuinely trying to do the right thing and make a mistake, well yes, I guess you get called for penalties like that or fouls in other sports, too. But it is irritating to see this, and then get passed by a paceline later.  I also think it can be tough to estimate bike lengths or 2 feet to the side when so much else is going on. It's not like there is something that lights up when you get too close.


It's a full meter to the side, not two feet. Wink 
I really doubt the officials are penalizing for this infraction and intentionally ignoring the blatant drafting you're describing. You may call it nitpicking, but there are advantages to be gained from these actions. It's the officials job to promote a safe and fair race, not to selectively enforce only specific rules, or to judge intent.
2009-09-22 1:37 PM
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Subject: RE: Looks like I cheated
KathyG - 2009-09-22 1:27 PM

One issue I struggle with is some riders when you try to pass them they speed up which makes the having to complete the pass difficult. The head referee talked about this during his talk at IM Canada that women often complain to him that men will speed up instead of dropping back when a women is passing a guy.

Really if someone is passing you don't speed up, follow the rules allow the person to complete the pass, drop back then you can you legally repass them.


Sorry, Kat, I have to disagree. It's a race, and there is nothing in the rules that says I have to allow someone to pass. It's incumbent on the passer to execute the pass within the allotted time. Don't attempt to pass unless you knw that you can.


2009-09-22 1:42 PM
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Subject: RE: Looks like I cheated
the bear - 2009-09-22 2:37 PM
KathyG - 2009-09-22 1:27 PM

One issue I struggle with is some riders when you try to pass them they speed up which makes the having to complete the pass difficult. The head referee talked about this during his talk at IM Canada that women often complain to him that men will speed up instead of dropping back when a women is passing a guy.

Really if someone is passing you don't speed up, follow the rules allow the person to complete the pass, drop back then you can you legally repass them.


Sorry, Kat, I have to disagree. It's a race, and there is nothing in the rules that says I have to allow someone to pass. It's incumbent on the passer to execute the pass within the allotted time. Don't attempt to pass unless you knw that you can.


Translation - I hate getting chicked. Now get off my lawn, and geaux Tigers
2009-09-22 2:30 PM
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Subject: RE: Looks like I cheated
the bear - 2009-09-22 2:34 PM

It's a full meter to the side, not two feet. Wink 
I really doubt the officials are penalizing for this infraction and intentionally ignoring the blatant drafting you're describing. You may call it nitpicking, but there are advantages to be gained from these actions. It's the officials job to promote a safe and fair race, not to selectively enforce only specific rules, or to judge intent.


It's a meter? Did they change that? I swear when I started doing this sport I read all the rules and the draft zone was 2 feet to each side and 3 bike lengths to the rear.

I guess they probably tweak this things over time, and I don't think to re-read all the fine print.

You are right - rules are rules. I have been in races, though, where there's just not a lot of time to react. You come around a corner, and people have all different handling skills ... I'm NOT going to brake through a turn. That's just dangerous.

I've also been in a race that was 5 loops for an Oly. That's a crowded course. I was managing to stay clear of others, and then we heard an ENGINE coming up from behind. We thought the lanes going our direction were closed to traffic, so everyone freaks out and moves over to the right, to get out of the way of whatever rogue vehicle is coming up.

Well it turns out its a race official riding backwards on a motorcycle. I see the official furiously writing numbers. Thank goodness I didn't get tagged, but seriously, I didn't think that was fair. We were trying to create basically 3 bike lanes within the lane of traffic to keep from drafting, and when everyone smooshed over, we were all in each other's draft zones. There was traffic coming from the other way, so the official couldn't ride in the next lane over without risking a head-on.
2009-09-22 2:47 PM
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Subject: RE: Looks like I cheated
I knew there was a reason I liked the bear.
2009-09-22 2:47 PM
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Subject: RE: Looks like I cheated
ahohl - 2009-09-22 2:30 PM
the bear - 2009-09-22 2:34 PM

It's a full meter to the side, not two feet. Wink 
I really doubt the officials are penalizing for this infraction and intentionally ignoring the blatant drafting you're describing. You may call it nitpicking, but there are advantages to be gained from these actions. It's the officials job to promote a safe and fair race, not to selectively enforce only specific rules, or to judge intent.


It's a meter? Did they change that? I swear when I started doing this sport I read all the rules and the draft zone was 2 feet to each side and 3 bike lengths to the rear.

I guess they probably tweak this things over time, and I don't think to re-read all the fine print.


b.
Definition of Drafting Zone
. The term "drafting zone" shall refer to a rectangular area seven (7) meters long and two (2) meters wide surrounding each bicycle. The longer sides of the zone begin at the leading edge of the front wheel and run backward parallel to the bicycle; the front wheel divides the short side of the zone into two equal parts. With respect to a moving motor vehicle, the "drafting zone" is a rectangular area extending 15 meters to each side of the vehicle and 30 meters behind the vehicle.

You are right - rules are rules. I have been in races, though, where there's just not a lot of time to react. You come around a corner, and people have all different handling skills ... I'm NOT going to brake through a turn. That's just dangerous.


h. Exceptions. A participant may enter the drafting zone without penalty only under the following conditions:

(1) When entering the drafting zone from the rear, closing the gap, and overtaking all within no more than 15 seconds.

(2) When cyclist reduces speed for safety reasons, for course blockage, for an aid station, for an emergency, when entering or exiting a transition area, or when making a turn of 90 degrees or more; or

(3) When USA Triathlon or the Head Referee expressly excludes a section of the bicycle course from the position foul rules because of overly narrow lanes, construction, detours, or a similar reason.


I've also been in a race that was 5 loops for an Oly. That's a crowded course. I was managing to stay clear of others, and then we heard an ENGINE coming up from behind. We thought the lanes going our direction were closed to traffic, so everyone freaks out and moves over to the right, to get out of the way of whatever rogue vehicle is coming up.

Well it turns out its a race official riding backwards on a motorcycle. I see the official furiously writing numbers. Thank goodness I didn't get tagged, but seriously, I didn't think that was fair. We were trying to create basically 3 bike lanes within the lane of traffic to keep from drafting, and when everyone smooshed over, we were all in each other's draft zones. There was traffic coming from the other way, so the official couldn't ride in the next lane over without risking a head-on.


I'd maintain that there is little possibility that three bikes can fit side-by-side in a single lane without encroaching in each others draft zones. But, that's a judgment call for the official to make. Most reasonable officials, if they saw it your way, would not write a penalty.
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