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Looks like I cheated (Page 2)
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 2009-09-22 3:09 PM in reply to: #2420258 |
Champion  5376    PA |  Subject: RE: Looks like I cheatedthe bear - 2009-09-22 2:24 PM Pector55 - 2009-09-22 1:02 PM I wonder if I technically broke this rule too. I was going up a hill (my weak point). As another cyclist approached on my left, I moved well onto the shoulder to get out of his way. As we made it to the top of the hill, he was a few bike lengths in front of me. I assume he recognized that as a heavier cyclist, I would move faster down the hill so he said, "let me know if you want to pass going downhill (as he pointed to the right). I said, "yeah, I move a lot better downhill." I accellerated past him and went down the hill. He was several bike lengths in front of me but I passed on the right after our clear communication. Was that wrong according to the rules? I'm guessing that technically, I should have passed him on the left? Any reason you couldn't have passed to the left? e. Passing. A participant who approaches another cyclist from the rear or from another unfavorable position bears primary responsibility for avoiding a position foul even if the cyclist being approached alters speed. A participant must not attempt to pass another cyclist unless adequate space is available and the athlete is confident of his/her ability to pass the other cyclist. All passing is to be done to the left of the cyclist being overtaken unless otherwise specified. He never did move over after he passed. Even after calling back to tell me to pass, he never moved over. Could I have gone even more left? Probably, but he was already a couple feet into the road whereas I had a huge shoulder I was riding. This was not a closed course and there was traffic. Good to know though, "always pass on the left" is how I'll look to do it from now on. |
| 2009-09-22 3:40 PM in reply to: #2420288 |
Champion 10018 , Minnesota Bronze member | Subject: RE: Looks like I cheated I'm sure I'll get hosed for this, but I have to admit this is making my head hurt: "...there is nothing in the rules that says I have to allow someone to pass". Is that not blocking? Let's say I'm traveling at 20 mph, slowing approaching another rider - I know they are going slower than me because I am gaining on them. I'm nearing their back wheel and they realize I'm starting to pass and increase their speed to 22 mphs. Maybe I cannot jump up to 22 mph as easily, but how in the world would I plan for that? They are dallying for whatever reason, I get into the "passing zone" they suddenly wake up? Why is that rider not obligated to let me pass, or get a blocking penalty? Whether I am not able to pass, because I cannot read the other rider's mind, or if I try to pass and am just not fast enough, it might look the same. I might be in "the zone" for a few seconds and then the leading rider rides away. So, I speed up feeling sure I can pass the bear - 2009-09-22 1:37 PM KathyG - 2009-09-22 1:27 PM One issue I struggle with is some riders when you try to pass them they speed up which makes the having to complete the pass difficult. The head referee talked about this during his talk at IM Canada that women often complain to him that men will speed up instead of dropping back when a women is passing a guy. Really if someone is passing you don't speed up, follow the rules allow the person to complete the pass, drop back then you can you legally repass them. Sorry, Kat, I have to disagree. It's a race, and there is nothing in the rules that says I have to allow someone to pass. It's incumbent on the passer to execute the pass within the allotted time. Don't attempt to pass unless you knw that you can. |
| 2009-09-22 3:42 PM in reply to: #2420288 |
Expert 2555  Colorado Springs, Colorado | Subject: RE: Looks like I cheated the bear - 2009-09-22 12:37 PM KathyG - 2009-09-22 1:27 PM One issue I struggle with is some riders when you try to pass them they speed up which makes the having to complete the pass difficult. The head referee talked about this during his talk at IM Canada that women often complain to him that men will speed up instead of dropping back when a women is passing a guy. Really if someone is passing you don't speed up, follow the rules allow the person to complete the pass, drop back then you can you legally repass them. Sorry, Kat, I have to disagree. It's a race, and there is nothing in the rules that says I have to allow someone to pass. It's incumbent on the passer to execute the pass within the allotted time. Don't attempt to pass unless you knw that you can. Seems like a stupid rule. A person makes a decision to pass based on the speed of the biker ahead, not with the anticipation that the biker ahead will suddenly sprint to keep from being passed thus causing the attempt to result in a violation/penalty. What if the lead biker slows enough to force the trailing biker into the draft zone for more than 5 seconds and then speeds up? It seems like a leading biker could potentially cause a competitor to be penalized as a tactical race strategy. Apparently the passer should be prepared to go into an anerobic sprint if necessary to get their front wheel ahead so the overtaken is forced to drop back. The rule seems like is was designed to prevent someone from continuously moving into the draft zone and dropping back, rather than for a one time thing - but the officials don't stick around long enough to observe that so they penalize as if the latter is the same as the former without regard. Stupid rule! |
| 2009-09-22 3:59 PM in reply to: #2418711 |
Champion 5376 PA | Subject: RE: Looks like I cheated What if they both crash their bikes and in a sprint to the finish line they are running side by side... (sorry, Ricky Bobby flashback). |
| 2009-09-22 4:10 PM in reply to: #2420633 |
Resident Curmudgeon 25290 The Road Back Gold member | Subject: RE: Looks like I cheated BikerGrrrl - 2009-09-22 3:40 PM I'm sure I'll get hosed for this, but I have to admit this is making my head hurt: "...there is nothing in the rules that says I have to allow someone to pass". Is that not blocking? Let's say I'm traveling at 20 mph, slowing approaching another rider - I know they are going slower than me because I am gaining on them. I'm nearing their back wheel and they realize I'm starting to pass and increase their speed to 22 mphs. Maybe I cannot jump up to 22 mph as easily, but how in the world would I plan for that? They are dallying for whatever reason, I get into the "passing zone" they suddenly wake up? Why is that rider not obligated to let me pass, or get a blocking penalty? Whether I am not able to pass, because I cannot read the other rider's mind, or if I try to pass and am just not fast enough, it might look the same. I might be in "the zone" for a few seconds and then the leading rider rides away. So, I speed up feeling sure I can pass Not sure how that is blocking. He is not physically preventing you from passing. He is following all of the rules as they apply to him (not obstructing, staying to the right of the course, etc.). Again, the lead rider has the discretion to go whatever speed he wants. All of the responsibility is placed on the passing cyclist. Don't enter the drafting zone unless you can complete the pass in fifteen seconds. Regardless of whether or not you think it is "stupid" it's still the rule. I'd argue that it's a good one, that an official has no way of judging intent in that situation, whether the lead rider is accelerating or the passing rider is just plain old drafting. In real life, I can't see this being an issue. If nothing else, the passing cyclist has both momentum and the advantage of being in a draft zone legally for the fifteen seconds, and thus uses less energy during that period. There may be a rare instance when you come upon a hard-a$$ under the right circumstances, but I would still maintain that you shouldn't try to pass unless you are sure that you can. Pector55 - 2009-09-22 3:59 PM What if they both crash their bikes and in a sprint to the finish line they are running side by side... (sorry, Ricky Bobby flashback). I'm sure somewhere there is one, but I have yet to see a triathlon where two cyclists can be "in a sprint to the finish line." Edited by the bear 2009-09-22 4:14 PM |
| 2009-09-22 5:02 PM in reply to: #2418711 |
Veteran 281 | Subject: RE: Looks like I cheated Are there any rules for people who pass you and then cut you off? I had this happen to me so many times at my first tri. People would use every last bit of energy to pass me and then cut me off and slow down bc they were exhausted-I think that should be against some rule...anyone know? |
| 2009-09-22 6:28 PM in reply to: #2420810 |
Veteran 335 Wilmington, NC | Subject: RE: Looks like I cheated jmholmes02 - 2009-09-22 6:02 PM Are there any rules for people who pass you and then cut you off? I had this happen to me so many times at my first tri. People would use every last bit of energy to pass me and then cut me off and slow down bc they were exhausted-I think that should be against some rule...anyone know? Nope, once the other rider's front tire is past yours, YOU have to drop back to 3 bike lengths before you can try to re-pass them. |
| 2009-09-22 7:16 PM in reply to: #2420919 |
Resident Curmudgeon 25290 The Road Back Gold member | Subject: RE: Looks like I cheated rghbsn - 2009-09-22 6:28 PM jmholmes02 - 2009-09-22 6:02 PM Are there any rules for people who pass you and then cut you off? I had this happen to me so many times at my first tri. People would use every last bit of energy to pass me and then cut me off and slow down bc they were exhausted-I think that should be against some rule...anyone know? Nope, once the other rider's front tire is past yours, YOU have to drop back to 3 bike lengths before you can try to re-pass them. Yep even if they come to a halt (technically speaking). |
| 2009-09-22 10:19 PM in reply to: #2420258 |
Master 1726 Sacramento, California | Subject: RE: Looks like I cheated the bear - 2009-09-22 1:24 PM Pector55 - 2009-09-22 1:02 PM I wonder if I technically broke this rule too. I was going up a hill (my weak point). As another cyclist approached on my left, I moved well onto the shoulder to get out of his way. As we made it to the top of the hill, he was a few bike lengths in front of me. I assume he recognized that as a heavier cyclist, I would move faster down the hill so he said, "let me know if you want to pass going downhill (as he pointed to the right). I said, "yeah, I move a lot better downhill." I accellerated past him and went down the hill. He was several bike lengths in front of me but I passed on the right after our clear communication. Was that wrong according to the rules? I'm guessing that technically, I should have passed him on the left? Any reason you couldn't have passed to the left? e. Passing. A participant who approaches another cyclist from the rear or from another unfavorable position bears primary responsibility for avoiding a position foul even if the cyclist being approached alters speed. A participant must not attempt to pass another cyclist unless adequate space is available and the athlete is confident of his/her ability to pass the other cyclist. All passing is to be done to the left of the cyclist being overtaken unless otherwise specified. The "unless otherwise specified" is the key phrase here. At the Chicago triathlon course talk they specifically instruct you to pass on the right...which led to major chaos because some were following the pass on the left rule and others were following the course instructions. Basically people were passing wherever they wanted leading to many accidents. |
| 2009-09-23 8:18 AM in reply to: #2419307 |
Pro 3705 Vestavia Hills | Subject: RE: Looks like I cheated The post below is probably one of the better examples of good sportsmanship that I have seen in a long while ... good on you for taking responsibility for the infraction. While it cost you a podium slot it gained you mucho points for how you handled it. The RD gets points for following through with the official. Points also for the official for taking such good notes to substantiate the infraction. This, unfortunately, is not always the case ... jlpete98 - 2009-09-22 7:34 AM 4:00 minute penalty for rule infraction 5.10a, drafting.
Here is the description of what the referee saw: “#1053, male, orange top, black bike—rider moved within less than 2 bike lengths of leading rider, stayed at this distance for about 5 seconds, then moved back to more than 3 bike lengths and did not execute a pass for at least the next 50 seconds.” By the rules, once you have entered the “draft zone” (defined as three bike lengths) you must continue to execute the pass within 15 seconds. |
| 2009-09-23 8:56 AM in reply to: #2419403 |
Champion 8540 the colony texas | Subject: RE: Looks like I cheated ratherbesnowboarding - 2009-09-22 7:43 AM This actually raises another question for me. What if you cant pass? As been discussed on this board before, some ppl will accelerate if someone tries to pass them, if the pass isn't complete, they have to drop back and wait. I thought the rule was that if you cant execute the pass in 15 seconds, you have to drop back by 3 bike lengths and then not try again for 30 seconds. Im not an RD, but thats how I always understood the rule. So according to this officials interpritation of the rule, everyone who couldnt complete a pass should have gotten a drafting penalty. well it is a race,, sometimes people don't want to be passed due to ego, other times they slowed down a bit without realizing it until you attempt to pass them |
| 2009-09-23 9:10 AM in reply to: #2418711 |
Expert 1123 Falls Church, VA | Subject: RE: Looks like I cheated good grief... this thread is making me reconsider trying to do any road tris. |
| 2009-09-23 9:50 AM in reply to: #2421590 |
Extreme Veteran 961 | Subject: RE: Looks like I cheated brian - 2009-09-23 8:18 AM The post below is probably one of the better examples of good sportsmanship that I have seen in a long while ... good on you for taking responsibility for the infraction. While it cost you a podium slot it gained you mucho points for how you handled it. The RD gets points for following through with the official. Points also for the official for taking such good notes to substantiate the infraction. This, unfortunately, is not always the case ... jlpete98 - 2009-09-22 7:34 AM 4:00 minute penalty for rule infraction 5.10a, drafting.
Here is the description of what the referee saw: “#1053, male, orange top, black bike—rider moved within less than 2 bike lengths of leading rider, stayed at this distance for about 5 seconds, then moved back to more than 3 bike lengths and did not execute a pass for at least the next 50 seconds.” By the rules, once you have entered the “draft zone” (defined as three bike lengths) you must continue to execute the pass within 15 seconds.
Yup, in addition to being a good sport, he's a good guy in general. |
| 2009-09-23 10:29 AM in reply to: #2421590 |
Expert 2555 Colorado Springs, Colorado | Subject: RE: Looks like I cheated brian - 2009-09-23 7:18 AM The post below is probably one of the better examples of good sportsmanship that I have seen in a long while ... good on you for taking responsibility for the infraction. While it cost you a podium slot it gained you mucho points for how you handled it. The RD gets points for following through with the official. Points also for the official for taking such good notes to substantiate the infraction. This, unfortunately, is not always the case ... jlpete98 - 2009-09-22 7:34 AM 4:00 minute penalty for rule infraction 5.10a, drafting.
Here is the description of what the referee saw: “#1053, male, orange top, black bike—rider moved within less than 2 bike lengths of leading rider, stayed at this distance for about 5 seconds, then moved back to more than 3 bike lengths and did not execute a pass for at least the next 50 seconds.” By the rules, once you have entered the “draft zone” (defined as three bike lengths) you must continue to execute the pass within 15 seconds. Yes, the OP has good sportsmanship and a great attitude. It just seems very wrong to receive a penalty for perhaps inadvertantly getting into the draft zone for "about 5 seconds" )whatever that means, was it 5 or 3 or 7) during a 6 hour ride. I'm sure I have done such things without ever realizing it just because I was daydreaming or not being completely focused for every second. I think a huge amount of people would receive this penalty if an official was observing them throughout an entire race, and most would be inadvertant where a person was not intentionally trying to draft or initiating a pass. 5 seconds in a 6 hour bike - OH THE HORRORS! |
| 2009-09-23 11:13 AM in reply to: #2420258 |
Champion 7547 Albuquerque, New Mexico Bronze member | Subject: RE: Looks like I cheated the bear - 2009-09-22 1:24 PM Pector55 - 2009-09-22 1:02 PM I wonder if I technically broke this rule too. I was going up a hill (my weak point). As another cyclist approached on my left, I moved well onto the shoulder to get out of his way. As we made it to the top of the hill, he was a few bike lengths in front of me. I assume he recognized that as a heavier cyclist, I would move faster down the hill so he said, "let me know if you want to pass going downhill (as he pointed to the right). I said, "yeah, I move a lot better downhill." I accellerated past him and went down the hill. He was several bike lengths in front of me but I passed on the right after our clear communication. Was that wrong according to the rules? I'm guessing that technically, I should have passed him on the left? Any reason you couldn't have passed to the left?
e. Passing. A participant who approaches another cyclist from the rear or from another unfavorable position bears primary responsibility for avoiding a position foul even if the cyclist being approached alters speed. A participant must not attempt to pass another cyclist unless adequate space is available and the athlete is confident of his/her ability to pass the other cyclist. All passing is to be done to the left of the cyclist being overtaken unless otherwise specified. I was involved in *THIS* situation at CdA. Early in the bike (like first 10 miles) there's a short climb and the course is crowded. There were riders along the shoulder and riders along the center-line "passing" the guys on the shoulder with a pretty significant gap between the two. Since I couldn't pass to the left of the "passing" cyclists without crossing the center-line, I shot up between the two groups. Technically illegal and I could have gotten the variable penalty, but I wasn't ready to sit behind someone and risk the drafting penalty either. Later in the race was a similar situation. A group of three riders were climbing a hill. It was clear to me that these three were racing together as they were chatting with each other and the left-most girl was a foot or two right of the center-line she must have been the fastest. Since it was a lot less crowded, I hung back on the first hill. They'd pull up even after the descent to continue riding 3-wide (for 15-20 minutes). I did manage to get around them legally at the start of a climb, before speedygirl could assume her leftward position and they bombed past me on the next downhill. I'd say the group was marginal on the drafting zone and because it was a social arrangement (the left-most girl was not trying to "pass" the other two) there could be a blocking penalty issued to one or both of the leftward riders. What is a trailing rider supposed to do? Cross the center-line? Hang back until they realize they're holding up traffic? |
| 2009-09-23 11:20 AM in reply to: #2422024 |
Resident Curmudgeon 25290 The Road Back Gold member | Subject: RE: Looks like I cheated McFuzz - 2009-09-23 11:13 AM What is a trailing rider supposed to do? Cross the center-line? Hang back until they realize they're holding up traffic? SCREAM (if thats what it takes) "on your left" and "please move to the right." |
| 2009-09-29 7:45 AM in reply to: #2418711 |
Extreme Veteran 751 | Subject: RE: Looks like I cheated I am doing my first tri this weekend...and just received my information packet. It was very helpful and thorough...except the following quote in a review of rules to take care about: Drafting-following a leading cyclist closer than three bike lengths and failing to pass or exit the draft zone within 15 seconds. Edited by RiverRat50 2009-09-29 7:47 AM |
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