High Intensity Training
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2010-01-09 2:55 PM |
Veteran 549 | Subject: High Intensity Training I have been involved in triathlons for 10 years and the last three years I have been doing mostly aerobic training in the 60-70 percent Max Hr range. Doing this kind of training helped me to increase my volume by approx. 70-80 percent in that time. I have been looking at different training plans that do less volume but very high intensity on most of their workouts. I plan on doing HIM New Orleans in 14 weeks and have toyed with the idea of trying one of those plans such as Endurance Nation, Ironguides, etc. that involve higher intensity workouts. My main concern since I am 54 is breaking down physically. What I would like to know if there are those who have been in my position and have tried these types of plans and what kind of success you have had or not had by going from mainly low aerobic workouts to high intensity. When I am doing an "A" race I spend five weeks doing some interval work in each discipline each week, typically 85-95% max HR, so its not like I have never done them, just for a short period of time. Anyhow, any comments or experiences would be very helpful. |
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2010-01-09 11:46 PM in reply to: #2605042 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: High Intensity Training This is teh basic approach I take with all of my athletes. I think the ENdurance Nation model is sound, and certainly buying one of their training plans will help you follow a structured method. Your concerns are valid and of coruse is one of the things that having a coach can help you with...but not all coaches feel comforatble (or even believe in ) doing what you are asking. So I don't have any direct experience with Endurance Nation, toehr than reading what they publish, but I cna tell you that I use "high intensity" trianing with all of my athletes with great results. It's true aerobic training, where as traditional LSD training limits your potential IMO. |
2010-01-10 11:12 AM in reply to: #2605042 |
Veteran 549 | Subject: RE: High Intensity Training Suzanne Thanks for your inisight but I wasnt necessarily meaning someone needed to respond who had done a plan with one of the above mentioned coaching groups, just someone who had done that type of training after so much aerobic training. My concern is they never go easy. It is like they look at that as "wasted miles or time" which I dont agree with at all. It seems all the plans on the web go to one extreme or the other. My background is running and we seemed to have more balance in our plans. Perhaps I am wrong but would like to know if others feel that way. |
2010-01-10 12:49 PM in reply to: #2605042 |
Pro 4353 Wallingford, PA | Subject: RE: High Intensity Training Suzanne - Just curious.... do you coach any older athletes using this training approach? I ask because I'm in my mid 40's, and I seem to do better in terms of avoiding injury if I keep high intensity training to a minimum, especially when it comes to running. Higher intensity work for swimming and biking seems to work okay for me, though.... I made some solid improvements in my running last year simply by increasing my running volume, almost all at an easy aerobic pace. I added in maybe 1 tempo run per week after establising a good base (20+ miles per week for a few months), and added some intervals duirng the last 6 - 8 weeks before key races. Do you have your athletes do high intesity work throughout their training, and for all 3 disciplines? I would be concerned that, for me, it might lead to injury (especially, as I say, for the run)... I'm self-coached though, so it could be I'm not doing the high intensity thing correctly. I like the idea (in theory anyway) of being able to train in fewer hours, but my main concern is risk of injury.... Thoughts??? |
2010-01-10 1:28 PM in reply to: #2605042 |
Veteran 549 | Subject: RE: High Intensity Training I did a search and didnt really see a thread like this discussed before(though I am sure it has been). Have noticed many coaches are involved with responding on BT and would love to have their input on this thread if possible! Thanks! |
2010-01-10 2:36 PM in reply to: #2606060 |
Veteran 113 | Subject: RE: High Intensity Training Hi, Good questions and good discussion. I see it, the issues are intensity, the appropriate intensity, and the appropriate combination of volume and intensity (when, how much, etc)
The net is that by exercising at z3-z4 we are getting all of the tasty, go-longer, z1-2 adaptions as well as the very tasty z3-4 go-faster adaptations. Appropriate Intensity: should probably put all of that functional jazz down here, I suppose. Jack Daniels Running Formula and VDot offer us a very proven structure within which to prescribe appropriate intensity, given an athlete's current tested fitness. Power training offers us the same opportunity on the bike and these tools can be easily transferred to heart rate based training. In addition, I'd like to point out that, in all my years of Ironman coaching I've never seen an athlete become injured on the bike by riding too hard...unless they ran into something :-) I firmly believe you can't start too soon to get fast on the bike by...riding very fast, a lot. The question is the proper combination of intensity and volume, see below. Appropriate combination of volume and intensity. This is where people screw it up. We recommend that rather than thinking in terms of Base 1,2.3, Build 1,2, etc, you think of the movement of training through the year as from General Preparation to Race Specific Preparation: General Prep: I want to get fast and prepare myself for the race specific training that happens later. I do lots of high intensity cycling and an appropriate amount of high intensity running, while keeping the volume low. Volume is kept low primarily because, as an age group athlete, I owe it to myself, my family, and my sanity to keep it as low as I can for as long as I can. So I keep the hours short but put a lot work in those hours, making myself faster and preserving SAUs (Spousal Approval Units) for when I really need them, in the Race Prep phase Race Preparation Phase: ask yourself "what are the requirements of the race?" I focus on Ironman training so my answer is "I need to be able to lock myself in the aero position and be very comfortable, while eating and drinking at my z2 effort. Then I need to come off the bike and run, a long time, at my z2 effort." So I do more of _that_ and less get-faster training. Along the way I sort out things like race nutrition, bike fit, hydration and sodium needs, etc. In other words, the volume goes up because volume is a requirement of the race. I turn down the intensity to accommodate the volume and to ensure I'm working within race specific intensities. The key, and this is a big one, is that by thinking in terms of General Prep and Race Prep, you separate high intensity, get-faster training from lower intensity, get-longer training. This separation is absolutely critical. I like to say "Build FAST, then put FAR under it." Traditional pitfalls:
Rich Strauss |
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2010-01-10 3:51 PM in reply to: #2605042 |
Veteran 549 | Subject: RE: High Intensity Training Thanks Rich for taking out some time from your busy schedule to respond in such depth! Let me keep it simple and straightforward. I run a 5K in the low 22's and do weekly long runs during the season at around 11:15-11:45 per mile. Of course I would love to do more intensity and faster workouts so I can get faster! When I go to such websites as yours I dont see anything on the pre plans showing anything below z3, am I wrong? So, what you are saying is if I use any of your plans and go by them that I wont get overtrained and burned out and will definitely get faster. Also, I also go much faster in bike portions of triathlons than what I train at, so with your plan I should see huge improvements? Once again, many thanks for your time! |
2010-01-10 9:20 PM in reply to: #2605042 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: High Intensity Training Rich's explanation was rich and accurate. There are a few slogans floating around that summarize the philosphy we share... "Fast then Far" (EN) "Raise the Left the Fill the Right" (Skiba) "Strong then Long" (McGee) I wish I could think of my own mantra to use and copyright because I fully endorse this training. like Rich said, it's relative to your tested fitness, so it's hard to go "too hard" if you are basing it off of test or race results. However, having said that...there was an interesting study brought ot mind recently... Following a group of high level athletes over 2 years...the first year the entire group followed a mostly LSD perscrition. about have the group made significant improvements in performance (I believe they were XC skiers, but I don't recall at the moment). The other half didn't get a whole lot faster. In year two, the non-responders switched ot a higher intensity type of appraoch while the responders continued doing what they were doing. Guess what happened? The "switchers" caught up to the first group in terms of performance gains, while the "non-switchers" continued to improve with what they were doing. SO combining all of the above, you can draw your own conclusions but... 1) Base your intensity off of your proven race/test fitness 2) if what you are doing is working , do more of it. if it's not working, try something different 3) Test often so you know if what you are doing is working. That being said, there are some people who may not respond to the higher intensity well, but there are plenty of ways to modulate the time spent at higher intensities...shorter itnerval durations, kinder friendlier high intensity intervals (billat's 30/30s), more rest following an intensse workout. Now, in addition to all of this, there are descriptive studies again looking at high level athletes who do a lot of "bipolar" training. Hard is hard and easy is easy. If the easy is moderate you don't have enough to go hard. If you don't go hard yo udon't get faster. A simplification, but you get the idea. I believe that Rich's models are based on the fact that as age-groupers with families and jobs, we don't have endless time ti train. pros by default MUST do a large percentage of time at slower speeds, because higher intensity for 35 hours a week is unsustainable (and unnnecessary). Running is also unique from biking and swimming in that it is a sport of durability. You need to be durable and if yo uare not, you can easily get hurt by doing too much intensity too soon. So doing Z1/Z2 for running in my view is more about giving non-muscular soft tissues time to adapt and get stronger so that they can tolerate the harder stuff...NOT to bring yoru muscular fitness to a certain level prior to doing the harder stuff. Hope that all helps, and thanks for your contribution, Rich. Edited by AdventureBear 2010-01-10 9:21 PM |
2010-01-10 9:23 PM in reply to: #2606204 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: High Intensity Training kdlsch111 - 2010-01-10 2:51 PM Also, I also go much faster in bike portions of triathlons than what I train at, ... Then you have a TON of room for improvement! You WILL get fast of you first go STRONG, then go LONG. PM me for more details if you like. |
2010-01-11 12:44 PM in reply to: #2606204 |
Veteran 113 | Subject: RE: High Intensity Training kdlsch111 - 2010-01-10 12:51 PM Thanks Rich for taking out some time from your busy schedule to respond in such depth! Let me keep it simple and straightforward. I run a 5K in the low 22's and do weekly long runs during the season at around 11:15-11:45 per mile. Of course I would love to do more intensity and faster workouts so I can get faster! When I go to such websites as yours I dont see anything on the pre plans showing anything below z3, am I wrong? So, what you are saying is if I use any of your plans and go by them that I wont get overtrained and burned out and will definitely get faster. Also, I also go much faster in bike portions of triathlons than what I train at, so with your plan I should see huge improvements? Once again, many thanks for your time! Sorry, I don't know what you mean by the "pre-plan" above. If you can tell me exactly what plan you're looking at above I should be able to help you. Also, if you're 5k times are low 22's, you should definitely be running faster than 11:30's for your long runs. This is a helpful VDot pace calculator you can use to determine training paces: http://www.runbayou.com/jackd.htm |
2010-01-11 12:54 PM in reply to: #2606716 |
Veteran 113 | Subject: RE: High Intensity Training So doing Z1/Z2 for running in my view is more about giving non-muscular soft tissues time to adapt and get stronger so that they can tolerate the harder stuff...NOT to bring yoru muscular fitness to a certain level prior to doing the harder stuff. Hope that all helps, and thanks for your contribution, Rich. Thanks for the good words. Excellent point about z1-2 above. Additional notes:
Finally, everything depends on how all of this stuff above is mixed into a training week: Monday works with Tues works with Wednesday, etc. The biggest mistake I see with Ironman athletes, from a weekly template perspective, is the Saturday long bike followed by a Sunday long run. At some point (usually around a 3.5hr long bike and 2hr+ long run) the combination of the two begins to severely impact downstream workouts until Monday and Tues are basically a wash. Edited by Rich Strauss 2010-01-11 12:55 PM |
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2010-01-11 5:41 PM in reply to: #2605042 |
Veteran 549 | Subject: RE: High Intensity Training I am talking about the HIM 70.3 plans you have discounted 20% off. I looked at the sample which said week 7. Is this plan the beginner, intermediate, or advanced and do you take into consideration how much mileage someone is presently doing as to which plan to sign up for?
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2010-01-12 11:11 AM in reply to: #2607852 |
NH | Subject: RE: High Intensity Training Rich Strauss - 2010-01-11 1:54 PM
How long is long enough before going high intensity in running? I'm taking the approach of a low intensity run winter since I've never run before a few months ago, though I'm roughly following Jorge's intense cycling (2x week only though). My assumption has been that I need some time, maybe the better part of a season, to "become" a runner and get my legs/joints used to running before I worry too much about intensity. |
2010-01-13 3:27 PM in reply to: #2609646 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: High Intensity Training wbayek - 2010-01-12 10:11 AM Rich Strauss - 2010-01-11 1:54 PM
How long is long enough before going high intensity in running? I'm taking the approach of a low intensity run winter since I've never run before a few months ago, though I'm roughly following Jorge's intense cycling (2x week only though). My assumption has been that I need some time, maybe the better part of a season, to "become" a runner and get my legs/joints used to running before I worry too much about intensity. YOu won't get hurt that way, and the most important aspect of training is consistency. |
2010-01-13 7:48 PM in reply to: #2606120 |
Member 52 Bettendorf, Iowa | Subject: RE: High Intensity Training Rich Strauss - 2010-01-10 2:36 PM Hi, Good questions and good discussion. I see it, the issues are intensity, the appropriate intensity, and the appropriate combination of volume and intensity (when, how much, etc)
The net is that by exercising at z3-z4 we are getting all of the tasty, go-longer, z1-2 adaptions as well as the very tasty z3-4 go-faster adaptations. Appropriate Intensity: should probably put all of that functional jazz down here, I suppose. Jack Daniels Running Formula and VDot offer us a very proven structure within which to prescribe appropriate intensity, given an athlete's current tested fitness. Power training offers us the same opportunity on the bike and these tools can be easily transferred to heart rate based training. In addition, I'd like to point out that, in all my years of Ironman coaching I've never seen an athlete become injured on the bike by riding too hard...unless they ran into something :-) I firmly believe you can't start too soon to get fast on the bike by...riding very fast, a lot. The question is the proper combination of intensity and volume, see below. Appropriate combination of volume and intensity. This is where people screw it up. We recommend that rather than thinking in terms of Base 1,2.3, Build 1,2, etc, you think of the movement of training through the year as from General Preparation to Race Specific Preparation: General Prep: I want to get fast and prepare myself for the race specific training that happens later. I do lots of high intensity cycling and an appropriate amount of high intensity running, while keeping the volume low. Volume is kept low primarily because, as an age group athlete, I owe it to myself, my family, and my sanity to keep it as low as I can for as long as I can. So I keep the hours short but put a lot work in those hours, making myself faster and preserving SAUs (Spousal Approval Units) for when I really need them, in the Race Prep phase Race Preparation Phase: ask yourself "what are the requirements of the race?" I focus on Ironman training so my answer is "I need to be able to lock myself in the aero position and be very comfortable, while eating and drinking at my z2 effort. Then I need to come off the bike and run, a long time, at my z2 effort." So I do more of _that_ and less get-faster training. Along the way I sort out things like race nutrition, bike fit, hydration and sodium needs, etc. In other words, the volume goes up because volume is a requirement of the race. I turn down the intensity to accommodate the volume and to ensure I'm working within race specific intensities. The key, and this is a big one, is that by thinking in terms of General Prep and Race Prep, you separate high intensity, get-faster training from lower intensity, get-longer training. This separation is absolutely critical. I like to say "Build FAST, then put FAR under it." Traditional pitfalls:
Rich Strauss This may be the best stuff I've ever read on this forum board. Thank you. I have very limited time to train.....and I have a hip condition that keeps me from running more than about 16-18 miles per week. Since my goal is to run the fastest 5K I possibly can as part of my sprint triathlons, I use a good amount of my weekly mileage for fairly high intensity running. I do a 3 mile tempo run, a 5 mile easy run, an interval/speed session (3-4 miles total), and a recovery-type run of about 4 miles each week. This has worked well for me....I've stayed injury free and progressed from a 28 minute 5 k down to sub 21 minutes in 18 months. I am sure to always warm up well before my higher intensity work-outs, and do a cool down with stretching as follow-up to each effort. I have never logged more than 20 miles in any given week. Maybe I would run a faster 5k if I logged more miles at an easy pace....like up in the 30-35 mile range. I CAN'T do it so I focus on training primarily how I want to perform in my races. I am closing in on my goal of running a stand alone 5k in the 19:XX range....and I am 45 years old with an artificial left hip. Just saying.... |
2010-02-04 10:39 AM in reply to: #2608534 |
Veteran 113 | Subject: RE: High Intensity Training kdlsch111 - 2010-01-11 2:41 PM I am talking about the HIM 70.3 plans you have discounted 20% off. I looked at the sample which said week 7. Is this plan the beginner, intermediate, or advanced and do you take into consideration how much mileage someone is presently doing as to which plan to sign up for?
Sorry, I suck for not checking this thread. Is there a setting in here for email notification of new posts? Anywho, Intermediate, Beginner or Advanced is a function of your PR times for the distance. You'll find these definitions next to the products in our store. With regards to starting fitness:
With regards to age, no, these are not age adjusted, ie this is a Masters plan, this is YoungDoodes plan, etc. However, we provide a ton of documentation and other resources to help people become better self coached athletes and tweak the plans themselves. I don't know if there is a Masters forum in here but a gather of like aged-peeps, sharing training information, would be a valuable resource for you to tap into.
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2010-02-04 10:47 AM in reply to: #2612785 |
Veteran 113 | Subject: RE: High Intensity Training jansenwins - 2010-01-13 4:48 PM Rich Strauss - 2010-01-10 2:36 PM Hi, Good questions and good discussion. I see it, the issues are intensity, the appropriate intensity, and the appropriate combination of volume and intensity (when, how much, etc)
The net is that by exercising at z3-z4 we are getting all of the tasty, go-longer, z1-2 adaptions as well as the very tasty z3-4 go-faster adaptations. Appropriate Intensity: should probably put all of that functional jazz down here, I suppose. Jack Daniels Running Formula and VDot offer us a very proven structure within which to prescribe appropriate intensity, given an athlete's current tested fitness. Power training offers us the same opportunity on the bike and these tools can be easily transferred to heart rate based training. In addition, I'd like to point out that, in all my years of Ironman coaching I've never seen an athlete become injured on the bike by riding too hard...unless they ran into something :-) I firmly believe you can't start too soon to get fast on the bike by...riding very fast, a lot. The question is the proper combination of intensity and volume, see below. Appropriate combination of volume and intensity. This is where people screw it up. We recommend that rather than thinking in terms of Base 1,2.3, Build 1,2, etc, you think of the movement of training through the year as from General Preparation to Race Specific Preparation: General Prep: I want to get fast and prepare myself for the race specific training that happens later. I do lots of high intensity cycling and an appropriate amount of high intensity running, while keeping the volume low. Volume is kept low primarily because, as an age group athlete, I owe it to myself, my family, and my sanity to keep it as low as I can for as long as I can. So I keep the hours short but put a lot work in those hours, making myself faster and preserving SAUs (Spousal Approval Units) for when I really need them, in the Race Prep phase Race Preparation Phase: ask yourself "what are the requirements of the race?" I focus on Ironman training so my answer is "I need to be able to lock myself in the aero position and be very comfortable, while eating and drinking at my z2 effort. Then I need to come off the bike and run, a long time, at my z2 effort." So I do more of _that_ and less get-faster training. Along the way I sort out things like race nutrition, bike fit, hydration and sodium needs, etc. In other words, the volume goes up because volume is a requirement of the race. I turn down the intensity to accommodate the volume and to ensure I'm working within race specific intensities. The key, and this is a big one, is that by thinking in terms of General Prep and Race Prep, you separate high intensity, get-faster training from lower intensity, get-longer training. This separation is absolutely critical. I like to say "Build FAST, then put FAR under it." Traditional pitfalls:
Rich Strauss This may be the best stuff I've ever read on this forum board. Thank you. I have very limited time to train.....and I have a hip condition that keeps me from running more than about 16-18 miles per week. Since my goal is to run the fastest 5K I possibly can as part of my sprint triathlons, I use a good amount of my weekly mileage for fairly high intensity running. I do a 3 mile tempo run, a 5 mile easy run, an interval/speed session (3-4 miles total), and a recovery-type run of about 4 miles each week. This has worked well for me....I've stayed injury free and progressed from a 28 minute 5 k down to sub 21 minutes in 18 months. I am sure to always warm up well before my higher intensity work-outs, and do a cool down with stretching as follow-up to each effort. I have never logged more than 20 miles in any given week. Maybe I would run a faster 5k if I logged more miles at an easy pace....like up in the 30-35 mile range. I CAN'T do it so I focus on training primarily how I want to perform in my races. I am closing in on my goal of running a stand alone 5k in the 19:XX range....and I am 45 years old with an artificial left hip. Just saying.... Thanks for the good words. I like to write :-) This has worked well for me....I've stayed injury free and progressed from a 28 minute 5 k down to sub 21 minutes in 18 months. That above is the definition of an effective training plan. I like to say:
In my experience, it all comes down to the effective integration of volume and intensity across a training plan, at the season long, macro-level, and also an effective mix of workouts in a training week.
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2010-02-04 11:17 AM in reply to: #2607852 |
Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. Edited by wgraves7582 2010-02-04 11:19 AM |
2010-02-04 11:18 AM in reply to: #2607852 |
Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. Edited by wgraves7582 2010-02-04 11:20 AM |
2010-02-04 11:59 AM in reply to: #2654796 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: High Intensity Training wgraves7582 - 2010-02-04 12:18 PM So what is your recommendation for breaking the two up? Great information by both Rich and Suzanne. Thanks you two. I'm not Rich but, for most people, you would put your long run during the week (say sometime in Tues-Thurs depending upon the rest of your schedule and life). Then ride long on the weekend. Often, this will allow you 2 long rides (or one long/one medium) on the weekend. I know Rich's plans in the past have been generally structured something like that--midweek long run, Sat long ride, Sun med ride (some level of intensity included in both). When I moved to that type of set-up, it not only allowed me to split up the long ride/long run but to also ride more. For Rich, down at the bottom right of the page you will see an "Actions" toggle for e-mail notification. |
2010-02-04 12:20 PM in reply to: #2654946 |
Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
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2010-02-04 12:40 PM in reply to: #2654997 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: High Intensity Training wgraves7582 - 2010-02-04 1:20 PM Thank you JK. That would take some planning because when I did mary training the lr kicked my butt and I wanted to sleep all day long so before work might be out and just hope you have the energy after work - guess that is where a solid diet comes into play! When I train for a marathon, I usually run long on the weekends. For tri training, I rarely (if ever) exceed 2 hour runs. For me, on those longest days, that means a 4:30am start to finish, shower, dress and head out to work. And that's "only" about a half hour or so before I would get up on other days. It has more to do with getting to bed early than having a good diet (though that's important as well). I like to have a swim the following morning, when possible, as it gives me more time for my legs to rest as well as a slightly later wake-up call on those days (pool opens at 5:30am). 90%+ of my "important" workouts get done in the am before life has an opportunity to get in the way. |
2010-02-04 12:53 PM in reply to: #2655046 |
Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
2010-02-04 1:38 PM in reply to: #2605042 |
Veteran 113 | Subject: RE: High Intensity Training Breaking up long bike and run Absolutely critical. Hands down the most effective and significant change I made to my training, coaching, and training plans, ever. Thursday Long Run: separates the long bike from the long run. Rather than have you riding 1-2hrs in the dark, before work by yourself on a Thursday, much easier to do a 1.5-2hr run that day instead. Sunday Semi-Long Ride (Saturday is riding): Thurs long run = opportunity to ride in the sun with your friends for 2+hrs on a Sunday. Think about it: if you're already doing a 2hr run on Sunday, then you've gotten the green light to invest 2hrs on a Sunday. In my experience, it's MUCH better to make that investment on the bike because it works much, much better with the long bike investment you're making on Saturday. At some level of volume, usually around a 3-4hr Saturday long bike and a 2hr Sunday run, the combination of the two begins to significantly impact each respective workout (you're afraid to ride hard on Saturday because of the Sunday long run and the long run is crap because you're shelled from Satuday) AND, most significantly downstream workout. Monday is crap, Tues is a little better, etc. This separation is a do not pass go idea. I'm sorry, but Sat long bike, Sunday long run, at least for IM training, is old skool. Every good IM coach I know has figured this out. If a week is still structured that way, to me it's a flag that the author likely hasn't done a 5hr long ride and 2.5-3hr long run and learned there just has to be another way. Bonus Material, Basic Training Week Presentation |
2010-02-04 1:49 PM in reply to: #2655312 |
Champion 9600 Fountain Hills, AZ | Subject: RE: High Intensity Training Rich Strauss - 2010-02-04 1:38 PM This separation is a do not pass go idea. I'm sorry, but Sat long bike, Sunday long run, at least for IM training, is old skool. Every good IM coach I know has figured this out. If a week is still structured that way, to me it's a flag that the author likely hasn't done a 5hr long ride and 2.5-3hr long run and learned there just has to be another way I don't agree with that at all. I think it can be beneficial to seperate long ride/run I also think it is beneficial to back them up together. Works for me. Also works for Craig Alexander. He will aleternate his long training protocol to seperate them or combimne them on consecutive days. Old school works, too. |
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