General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Emilio's Statement on WTC's recent ban of the T1 Water Rover starting Sept 1, 2010 Rss Feed  
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2010-04-19 9:50 AM
in reply to: #2799397

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Master
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Subject: RE: Emilio's Statement on WTC's recent ban of the T1 Water Rover starting Sept 1, 2010
Some regulation here is good I think.  You have to draw the line somewhere.  Should it be 10mm? 20mm? 30mm?  At some point they had to draw the line in the sand...now its there.


2010-04-19 1:51 PM
in reply to: #2799397

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Master
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Subject: RE: Emilio's Statement on WTC's recent ban of the T1 Water Rover starting Sept 1, 2010
Emilio - 2010-04-18 11:51 AM  The most intelligent people in our sport can figure this out and its those people who are buying what is indisputably the worlds fastest wetsuit faster than we can make them.


Then what was the point of your post? 

I'm actually on your side here, and think the ban is rediculous... and was hoping to own one of your suits to compensate for my balance issues... in my opinion no different than some race wheels compensating for my un-aerodynamic midsection a little bit.

But saying "this doesn't matter to us they're selling like hotcakes" seems a bit far fetched to me.  I suspect no doubt there is a significant sales consequence.
2010-04-19 3:33 PM
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2010-04-19 3:40 PM
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Subject: RE: Emilio's Statement on WTC's recent ban of the T1 Water Rover starting Sept 1, 2010
PennState - 2010-04-19 1:33 PM

I had another thought on this issue. I used to be a pretty avid golfer. Not a pro, but 10 handicap.

There were similar issues with equipment. Specifically the balls and some clubs were banned by the PGA as they either went too far or they were simply too advantageous.

I never played in any significant tournaments so it didn't matter that much to me, but if you were to golf with a few friends and were using equipment that the PGA had deemed illegal, it did matter.

ie; if you beat your friend, was it YOU or the EQUIPMENT?

I think the same worry could apply. ie; you pull off a HIM swim that is 5 minutes faster than anything you have ever done with the WR wetsuit.

Was it YOU (training, technique etc) or the EQUIPMENT?

People may not say it out loud, but some are definitely thinking what I just said.


People that lose think that. If it's within the rules of the game and you lose to it, you (the general you) are either (1) not smart enough to use the best available equipment or (2) would have lost anyway, no matter what you use.

What's that saying? It's the poor artist that blames his (lack of) tools?

Edited by ChrisM 2010-04-19 3:46 PM
2010-04-19 3:50 PM
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2010-04-19 3:59 PM
in reply to: #2802314

Subject: RE: Emilio's Statement on WTC's recent ban of the T1 Water Rover starting Sept 1, 2010
PennState - 2010-04-19 1:50 PM

I suppose, but are there really cameras that are banned in underwater photograhy? (I don't know the answer?)

If the equipment is banned and you use it to beat someone playing golf, they will think that it might have been the equipment.
If they beat you and YOU were the one using the 'banned' golf clubs or ball, they might even think that despite using the equipment they still beat you. ie; they are that much better.

I guess all I really think is that most of us care a little bit about what others think of us and in the sport of triathlon, our performances. The Water Rover, or banned square groove clubs etc will affect the way SOME people perceive us.

If the individual doesn't care, then go buy the suit.



took out the uw stuff since it was irrelevant

Problem with your analogy is the golf equpment isn't banned for you. It's banned for John Daly. If it's not banned for you, I cannot see a good reason why someone shouldn't use it.

Your third paragraph makes it sounds like you think people using WR are cheating?

Personally, I have to keep learning a couple things over and over. One is keep my side of the street clean (i.e., no lying, cheating, cutting corners), The other is that, as long as my conscience is clear, what anyone thinks of me is none of my business. I would have no qualms about buying and using a WR in a local race where it's legal. And if someone else beat me out of the water using one, more power to them.

eta -- all that said, I think emilio kinda got screwed here. Did the research, came up with a product, and they ban thick suits. Kinda like the hack a shaq rule.

Edited by ChrisM 2010-04-19 4:01 PM


2010-04-19 4:04 PM
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Edited by PennState 2010-04-19 4:06 PM
2010-04-19 4:10 PM
in reply to: #2799397

Subject: RE: Emilio's Statement on WTC's recent ban of the T1 Water Rover starting Sept 1, 2010
gotcha. I wouldn't buy it either, but only because I don't want to buy two wetsuits and I want to do WTC events.

For the races I do, given the way courses are laid out in the ocean, inconsistent distances, surf, long transition runs, etc., I honestly don't see how a couple extra millimeters would make me noticeably or significantly faster, at least not enough to warrant buying a new suit over it
2010-04-19 4:18 PM
in reply to: #2802372

Master
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Subject: RE: Emilio's Statement on WTC's recent ban of the T1 Water Rover starting Sept 1, 2010
There is no half cheating. There is cheating or not cheating. If you use equipment such as a WR in a non WTC event it is not cheating and if people think they, I will take the straight up position, their opinion is wrong. Legal is legal under the rules.

As a hypothetical, if you owned 808s and WTC passed a rule that nothing over 60mm can be used in WTC events, would you then stop using them in non-WTC events?
 
 
PennState - 2010-04-19 5:04 PM
Your third paragraph makes it sounds like you think people using WR are cheating?
You are not understanding me correctly. I have no opinion on OTHERS using it. I tried to state that I believe some people will view the user of a suit that is banned in some races as a form of cheating, others will not. It would seem to reason that if you don't care what others think, then do what you wish. If you are worried about this perception, then don't use the suit. My only opinion on the suit is regarding ME. I don't want to use a suit banned by WTC as I do a lot of their races. I don't want any swim gains (which I have made this year) to be in any way associated with a special wetsuit. I hope I made myself clear. BTW, there is much more rampant cheating that occurs in the bike portion, it's called drafting
2010-04-19 4:18 PM
in reply to: #2799397

over a barrier
Subject: RE: Emilio's Statement on WTC's recent ban of the T1 Water Rover starting Sept 1, 2010
WTC is a private FOR profit company, they are not a rulling body like ITU or USAT. I don't give two flips what WTC thinks. However, If I choose to race a branded 70.3/140.6 event I would follow their rules like I would any RD no matter how wacky.

They think its within the "spirit of competition" to add a fairing on a P4 and call it a water bottle slash tool kit, beamed bikes or Shiv's (which aren't UCI legal). But they've decided they don't want any extra 5mm of neoprene in a thigh panel of a wetsuit. Does it make any sense? Not to me, but I follow their rules if I choose to race at their events.





Edited by running2far 2010-04-19 4:20 PM
2010-04-21 8:20 AM
in reply to: #2799397

Subject: RE: Emilio's Statement on WTC's recent ban of the T1 Water Rover starting Sept 1, 2010

My thoughts: the Swim is a very small portion of a 70.3 or 140.6 race.  Rarely does someone come out of the water in first and hold the lead to the tape. 

The Bike however is a very significant portion of a 70.3 or 140.6 race, and often the leaders off the bike are the first one's to the finish line, save a few blow-ups.  In just the last 2.5 years I've been in this sport, I've seen new bikes come out, like the P4, that according to wind tunnel data will save several minutes over a 112 mile distance, based on design alone!  The Bike manufacturers are producing more aero and narrower bikes, not to mention the down tube water bottles which are pure fairings; not to mention disc wheels, and 90mm deep carbon fairings on the rims, aero helmets, etc...  All devices and equipment that are proven to gain speed and lessen times without any extra effort.  So why WTC (as mentioned, a for-profit event organizing entity; not a ruling/governing body) has a beef with a wetsuit manufacturer adding 5mm of neoprene to the legs of a wetsuit; yet, a P4 frame with a water bottle fairing, 90mm front wheel, disc rear, and aero helmet is legal is ridiculous and contradictory.

Emilio claimed it's the fastest wetsuit.  Big whoop.  Every other bike manufacturer claims The World's Fastest Bike!  Perhaps if De Soto had as much money and clout as some of the bike manufacturers, the Rover would be legal.  To me, this is the WTC clearly picking on a smaller company.  WTC wouldn't dare lock horns with the bike industry which is a hundred times larger than the wetsuit industry.  De Soto simply "claims" a faster wetsuit.  They have not published any data that I know of.  Whereas the bike manufacturers and wheel corporations go to great pains and expense to publish all the scientific data that proves there products will make you faster, with no additional effort.  And yet WTC says nothing to them. 

Also, in the WTC Rules it states: No tandems, recumbents, fairings, or any add-on device designed exclusively to reduce resistance are allowed. 

WTF??  Why don't they inforce these rules???  The maker of my Jet 60 wheels, HED, clearly and unabashedly states the Jet 90 and Jet 60 has a carbon fairing.  Cervelo (a HUGE COMPANY compared to De Soto) cannot deny the P4 water bottle is a pure fairing.  It also states in most of the rules for most races: No Solid Wheels.  Yet discs are used and no one questions it. 

Shame on WTC for picking on a small company like De Soto for trying to be innovative and simply do what the bike and wheel manufacturers have been doing for over a decade.  If WTC really wants to get back to its roots than ban ALL wetsuits, ban all aero helmets, aero frames, and let's be consistent in our rules across all three disciplines. 

Here's a cyclist (Dunbar) from Kona 1978:

And here is a cyclist (Lieto) from Kona present:

“Ironman recognizes the importance of showcasing the competitive element at all events. We believe these amendments place more emphasis on performance and function and less on technology, therefore staying true with the Ironman spirit ,” says Ironman’s Head of Officials, Jimmy Riccitello.

Are you freaking kidding me??  Yeah, millions of dollars haven't gone into technology to make bikes and wheels more aerodynamic, less wind resistant, thus allowing athletetes to go faster without expending more effort.  What an effing Joke. Puh-leeeeeeease.  As always, it boils down to MONEY.  WTC is picking on a small wetsuit manufacturer in an attempt to make themselves look better; whereas, they would never dare go after a corporation larger than themselves.  Bullying and pure Bullshiit at its best. 





Edited by Dream Chaser 2010-04-21 8:28 AM


2010-04-21 8:27 AM
in reply to: #2806515

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Subject: RE: Emilio's Statement on WTC's recent ban of the T1 Water Rover starting Sept 1, 2010
Dream Chaser - 2010-04-21 8:20 AM

MyAlso, in the WTC Rules it states: No tandems, recumbents, fairings, or any add-on device designed exclusively to reduce resistance are allowed. 

WTF??  Why don't they inforce these rules???  The maker of my Jet 60 wheels, HED, clearly and unabashedly state the Jet 90 and Jet 60 has a carbon fairing.  Cervelo (a HUGE COMPANY compared to De Soto) cannot deny the P4 water bottle is a purely a fairing.  It also states in most of the rules for most races: No Solid Wheels.  Yet discs are used and no one questions it. 



Do you have a link for these "WTC Rules"? It is my impression that for the most part they follow a modified version of the USAT rules, which specifically allow solid disc wheels and wheel covers.:

5.11 Bicycle Specifications. All bicycles and bicycle equipment used in USA Triathlon sanctioned events must conform to the specifications set forth in this Section. Any participant using a nonconforming bicycle or otherwise violating this Section shall be disqualified.

(g) Except as otherwise determined by the race director in the interest of safety, the front wheel may be of a different diameter than the rear wheel, but the front wheel must be of spoke construction. The rear wheel may be either spoke or solid construction. Wheel covers shall only be permitted on the rear wheel.

2010-04-21 8:32 AM
in reply to: #2806532

Subject: RE: Emilio's Statement on WTC's recent ban of the T1 Water Rover starting Sept 1, 2010

the bear - 2010-04-21 9:27 AM
Dream Chaser - 2010-04-21 8:20 AM

MyAlso, in the WTC Rules it states: No tandems, recumbents, fairings, or any add-on device designed exclusively to reduce resistance are allowed. 

WTF??  Why don't they inforce these rules???  The maker of my Jet 60 wheels, HED, clearly and unabashedly state the Jet 90 and Jet 60 has a carbon fairing.  Cervelo (a HUGE COMPANY compared to De Soto) cannot deny the P4 water bottle is a purely a fairing.  It also states in most of the rules for most races: No Solid Wheels.  Yet discs are used and no one questions it. 



Do you have a link for these "WTC Rules"? It is my impression that for the most part they follow a modified version of the USAT rules, which specifically allow solid disc wheels and wheel covers.:

5.11 Bicycle Specifications. All bicycles and bicycle equipment used in USA Triathlon sanctioned events must conform to the specifications set forth in this Section. Any participant using a nonconforming bicycle or otherwise violating this Section shall be disqualified.

 

(g) Except as otherwise determined by the race director in the interest of safety, the front wheel may be of a different diameter than the rear wheel, but the front wheel must be of spoke construction. The rear wheel may be either spoke or solid construction. Wheel covers shall only be permitted on the rear wheel.

Here yah go.  From Eagleman 2009:  http://www.tricolumbia.org/Eagleman/IronMan_Race_Rules_2009.pdf

Bike Rule #13:

No tandems, recumbents, fairings, or any add

-on device designed exclusively to reduce resistance are allowed. Any new, unusual, or prototype equipment will be subject to a determination of legality by the event organizer and/or Head Referee.

2010-04-21 8:34 AM
in reply to: #2799397

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Subject: RE: Emilio's Statement on WTC's recent ban of the T1 Water Rover starting Sept 1, 2010
I was referring to your reference that solid wheels were illegal.
2010-04-21 8:37 AM
in reply to: #2799397

Subject: RE: Emilio's Statement on WTC's recent ban of the T1 Water Rover starting Sept 1, 2010

Ironman Louisville, same thing: http://admin.ironman.com/assets/files/races/louisville/pdf/mediaguide.pdf

Main Entry: 2fairing
Function: noun
Etymology: 4fair
Date: 1914

: a member or structure whose primary function is to produce a smooth outline and to reduce drag

This is pretty black and white.  Aero wheels are clearly fairings.  Aero water bottles are clearly fairings.  A sheet of carbon covering an entire back wheel is CLEARLY a giant fairing that produces a very smooth outline and reduces drag.

2010-04-21 8:38 AM
in reply to: #2806515

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Subject: RE: Emilio's Statement on WTC's recent ban of the T1 Water Rover starting Sept 1, 2010
Good grief, Bobby, WTC is not picking on DeSoto, they are simply making a decision to align the rules for swim with those of the International governing bodies, which is fine. Now, DeSotot may have forced the issue and brought this to their attention, but it was likely inevtiable. I would be fine if WTC adopted UCI rules as well.


2010-04-21 8:43 AM
in reply to: #2806548

Subject: RE: Emilio's Statement on WTC's recent ban of the T1 Water Rover starting Sept 1, 2010

the bear - 2010-04-21 9:34 AM I was referring to your reference that solid wheels were illegal.

Ironman Philippines: http://www.ironman703phil.com/rules

Any other comment or constructive critique to the post?  Other than picking out one small sentence. 

2010-04-21 8:45 AM
in reply to: #2806548

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Subject: RE: Emilio's Statement on WTC's recent ban of the T1 Water Rover starting Sept 1, 2010
the bear - 2010-04-21 9:34 AM I was referring to your reference that solid wheels were illegal.


To the best of my knowledge Bear is right. There is no outright ban of disc wheels at WTC races. Only certain races do not allow disc wheels ie Kona. 
2010-04-21 8:45 AM
in reply to: #2806559

Subject: RE: Emilio's Statement on WTC's recent ban of the T1 Water Rover starting Sept 1, 2010

bryancd - 2010-04-21 9:38 AM Good grief, Bobby, WTC is not picking on DeSoto, they are simply making a decision to align the rules for swim with those of the International governing bodies, which is fine. Now, DeSotot may have forced the issue and brought this to their attention, but it was likely inevtiable. I would be fine if WTC adopted UCI rules as well.

Well then they shouldn't spew pure BS like saying they're doing it to depend less on technology and keep in line with the Spirit of Ironman.  Compare this wetsuit enhancement to a regular wetsuit.  Then compare a bike from today to 15 years ago. 

2010-04-21 8:46 AM
in reply to: #2806582

Subject: RE: Emilio's Statement on WTC's recent ban of the T1 Water Rover starting Sept 1, 2010

scottyr7 - 2010-04-21 9:45 AM
the bear - 2010-04-21 9:34 AM I was referring to your reference that solid wheels were illegal.


To the best of my knowledge Bear is right. There is no outright ban of disc wheels at WTC races. Only certain races do not allow disc wheels ie Kona. 

We're detracting from the entire point of my post and focusing a microscope on one sentence.  Just make believe that sentence doesn't exist.

2010-04-21 8:49 AM
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Subject: RE: Emilio's Statement on WTC's recent ban of the T1 Water Rover starting Sept 1, 2010
Dream Chaser - 2010-04-21 8:43 AM

the bear - 2010-04-21 9:34 AM I was referring to your reference that solid wheels were illegal.

Ironman Philippines: http://www.ironman703phil.com/rules

Any other comment or constructive critique to the post?  Other than picking out one small sentence. 



Yeah, just to point out what you should already know: The race organization, wheter it be the WTC or the USAT, has a right to onterpret rules and definitions the way they see fit. It's their race, it's their rules, and they are under no obligation to follow your interpretation of the definition of "fairing."

As what most choices in life, you can abide by their decision and interpretations or choose to not participate.


Edited by the bear 2010-04-21 8:50 AM


2010-04-21 8:53 AM
in reply to: #2806598

Subject: RE: Emilio's Statement on WTC's recent ban of the T1 Water Rover starting Sept 1, 2010

the bear - 2010-04-21 9:49 AM
Dream Chaser - 2010-04-21 8:43 AM

the bear - 2010-04-21 9:34 AM I was referring to your reference that solid wheels were illegal.

Ironman Philippines: http://www.ironman703phil.com/rules

Any other comment or constructive critique to the post?  Other than picking out one small sentence. 



Yeah, just to point out what you should already know: The race organization, wheter it be the WTC or the USAT, has a right to onterpret rules and definitions the way they see fit. It's their race, it's their rules, and they are under no obligation to follow your interpretation of the definition of "fairing."

It's not my interpretation.  It's the dictionary's simple definition of fairing.  It's pretty Black and White.  The damn wheel manufacturers even call it a fairing.  But MONEY turns Black and White definitions into Grey area. 

2010-04-21 9:07 AM
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Subject: RE: Emilio's Statement on WTC's recent ban of the T1 Water Rover starting Sept 1, 2010
Dream Chaser - 2010-04-21 8:53 AM

the bear - 2010-04-21 9:49 AM
Dream Chaser - 2010-04-21 8:43 AM

the bear - 2010-04-21 9:34 AM I was referring to your reference that solid wheels were illegal.

Ironman Philippines: http://www.ironman703phil.com/rules

Any other comment or constructive critique to the post?  Other than picking out one small sentence. 



Yeah, just to point out what you should already know: The race organization, wheter it be the WTC or the USAT, has a right to onterpret rules and definitions the way they see fit. It's their race, it's their rules, and they are under no obligation to follow your interpretation of the definition of "fairing."

It's not my interpretation.  It's the dictionary's simple definition of fairing.  It's pretty Black and White.  The damn wheel manufacturers even call it a fairing.  But MONEY turns Black and White definitions into Grey area. 



My point is that, apparently, the WTC interprets it differently, regardless of how B&W you think it is. Abide or walk.

Certinly agree with you that it's contradictory in face of the WTC official's statement that you cited.

Edited by the bear 2010-04-21 9:08 AM
2010-04-21 9:59 AM
in reply to: #2799397

Master
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Subject: RE: Emilio's Statement on WTC's recent ban of the T1 Water Rover starting Sept 1, 2010
Strictly from a busines perspective here...but...if a company knew a regulation was coming out about to prohibit the sale of an item there are really 3 choices:

1) Stop production and focus capital elsewhere (assuming there are other products)
2) attempt to fight or change the regulation (risky move)
3) Continue production and sales and wait for the verdict (abrupt change in cash flow, if planned ok, must time this date to minimize effect to profits)

It sounds like a mix of 2 and 3 here purposely, and possibly 1 as a result.  Judging by not seeing these suits at a race yet, probably just a small revenue source for them.  Raising prices X% on the other items probably makes up for the loss.

good luck whatever you choose...I love the De Soto tri clothing and its all I buy right now.

2010-04-23 3:42 PM
in reply to: #2799397

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Subject: RE: Emilio's Statement on WTC's recent ban of the T1 Water Rover starting Sept 1, 2010
Not sure if anyone mentioned it or not, but Xterra said its speedsuits will no longer be legal come september. From their site:

Our current Velocity speedsuit line is legal in all USA Triathlon (USAT) sanctioned races, regardless of water temperature. Velocities are also legal in World Triathlon Corporation (WTC) sanctioned events (including Ironman and Ironman 70.3) that permit wetsuits. Effective September 1, 2010, our current Velocity speedsuit line will not be legal in WTC sanctioned events (including Ironman and Ironman 70.3) with water temperatures over 76 degrees. For all other races, we encourage you to contact the race directly for all speedsuit and wetsuit regulations.
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General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Emilio's Statement on WTC's recent ban of the T1 Water Rover starting Sept 1, 2010 Rss Feed  
 
 
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