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Hydration tactic in HIM
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 2010-04-27 8:09 AM |
 233  |  Subject: Hydration tactic in HIMI've been trying to figure the most slim design for carrying liquid in a HIM with bottle hand-offs. I need some info and some advice. First, I am curious, what do you do with the extra bottle after the hand-off? Is there a designated tossing space? What if you are "attached" to your bottles? Do you get them back or go in with a throw-away bottle? Second, I am looking for the best way. I have one in mind, but I wonder what others do. The set-up has to fit within the following restrictions: 1) No frame mounted cages. Rear or aerobars only. 2) I have tried the zip-tied bottle cage to the aerobars and while this is the "coolest" idea, I hate it. The bottle gets in the way of my hands, and I cant mount the speedometer. Great idea. Poor implementation by me and I'm not spending money on the Torpedo mount. Might work for others. 3) I have tried the profile design aerobottle. It is ok, but the rickety mount kinda sucks. I also am not great at using the straw, but can learn. I got it for $5.99 at performance so no skin off the back, so to speak. I also ordered the bonty aerobottle just to try it out. Bettter mount, better straw, speedo mount. Might be ok. 4) I also have tried the rear mount, ala Xlab. This is great in training as I can carry 4 bottles (two on the frame, which come off in the race, one on the aerobars, on the rear and my kit in a separate bottle on the rear. Can go almost 70 miles without stopping. Only thing I dont like about it is that it is dorky as hell. I would like to take it off during the race. So my plan is to mount an aerobottle on the bars, a super minimal saddle bag for kit, carry some NUUN tabs and gels in a bentobox and grab water from the stations, adding a NUUN tab to mix. No rear mount, no frame cages. Only issue is that when I grab a bottle, I will add the liquid to the aerobar bottle then have no where to put the extra bottle. On a race, can you just toss the bottle? Is that part of the service of the race? I cant imagine that it is! |
| 2010-04-27 8:16 AM in reply to: #2819011 |
| Subject: RE: Hydration tactic in HIM Yes, you can generally toss water bottles within sight of the hand off station. They'll have bins and cans to aim for but anywhere near the station is fair game. That said, I tend to have a profile design aero bottle in front and two bottles on my bike. Might be dorky but I'm good for the whole 56 miles even if they run out or it's crowded when I get to the hand off station or we fumble the handoff. Plus my spare tube, CO2 and such are in the pack attached to the X-Lab super wing anyway so why take it off? That's worked for me for a few HIMs now and it's how I'm going to do this next one as well. I'll come up with something for the IM later. Edited by DanielG 2010-04-27 8:16 AM |
| 2010-04-27 8:21 AM in reply to: #2819011 |
Pro 4353  Wallingford, PA | Subject: RE: Hydration tactic in HIM Just curious, why no frame mounted cages? I assume you must be uber-fast on the bike to be concerned about this.... I'm not uber-fast on the bike. My HIM set-up has been profile design bottle on the front with water only, and 2 frame mounted bottles with my nutrition. By the time I've gotten to the bottle exchange in the HIM distance races I've done, one of my nutrition bottles is done, so I toss one of those, and grab a bottle of water and put it in the frame cage where the empty nutrition bottle was (yes, I use a bottle I don't care if I loose...). Then I can refill the profile design bottle with water by squeezing or pouring water in through the mesh when it's close to empty. I just hang onto that water bottle until either another bottle exchange or the end of the race. It's okay to drop bottles at or very near the bottle exchange, but purposely tossing a bottle elsewhere on the course would be bad form, IMO.... |
| 2010-04-27 8:29 AM in reply to: #2819011 |
Expert 1036 | Subject: RE: Hydration tactic in HIM I used the Speedfill in 70.3 NO and loved it. Seems like it would work anywhere. |
| 2010-04-27 8:30 AM in reply to: #2819052 |
Veteran 139 Metairie | Subject: RE: Hydration tactic in HIM jsnowash - 2010-04-27 8:21 AM but purposely tossing a bottle elsewhere on the course would be bad form, IMO.... It is a penalty if you get caught. At last HIM, I saw someone get sent to the penalty tent for littering the run course with a sponge provided by an aid station (he pitched it a mile down the road and nowhere near any station). |
| 2010-04-27 8:42 AM in reply to: #2819052 |
Expert 2555 Colorado Springs, Colorado | Subject: RE: Hydration tactic in HIM jsnowash - 2010-04-27 7:21 AM Just curious, why no frame mounted cages? X2 I go with the same setup. Aerodrink and 2 frame bottles. The aero difference between this setup and replacing the frame bottle with rear mounts is negligible. If you have a favorite bottle you don't want to lose, don't use it in the race. Some races have a toss zone both before and after the handup zone. I generally toss my bottle before so I have a place to put it when I get the new one. I have also found I hydrate more frequently and regularly with the Aerodrink. Having that straw in my face all the time makes it very easy. I also don't use a Bento. I wear a sleeveless jersey and stuff what I need in the pockets during transition. I load all the stuff in a baggie, put it in my helmet and simply grab it and put it in a pocket with one hand while the other is putting on the helmet. |
| 2010-04-27 8:46 AM in reply to: #2819011 |
Pro 4828 The Land of Ice and Snow | Subject: RE: Hydration tactic in HIM carbonrx8 - 2010-04-27 9:09 AM I've been trying to figure the most slim design for carrying liquid in a HIM with bottle hand-offs. I need some info and some advice. First, I am curious, what do you do with the extra bottle after the hand-off? Is there a designated tossing space? What if you are "attached" to your bottles? Do you get them back or go in with a throw-away bottle? Second, I am looking for the best way. I have one in mind, but I wonder what others do. The set-up has to fit within the following restrictions: 1) No frame mounted cages. Rear or aerobars only. 2) I have tried the zip-tied bottle cage to the aerobars and while this is the "coolest" idea, I hate it. The bottle gets in the way of my hands, and I cant mount the speedometer. Great idea. Poor implementation by me and I'm not spending money on the Torpedo mount. Might work for others. 3) I have tried the profile design aerobottle. It is ok, but the rickety mount kinda sucks. I also am not great at using the straw, but can learn. I got it for $5.99 at performance so no skin off the back, so to speak. I also ordered the bonty aerobottle just to try it out. Bettter mount, better straw, speedo mount. Might be ok. 4) I also have tried the rear mount, ala Xlab. This is great in training as I can carry 4 bottles (two on the frame, which come off in the race, one on the aerobars, on the rear and my kit in a separate bottle on the rear. Can go almost 70 miles without stopping. Only thing I dont like about it is that it is dorky as hell. I would like to take it off during the race. So my plan is to mount an aerobottle on the bars, a super minimal saddle bag for kit, carry some NUUN tabs and gels in a bentobox and grab water from the stations, adding a NUUN tab to mix. No rear mount, no frame cages. Only issue is that when I grab a bottle, I will add the liquid to the aerobar bottle then have no where to put the extra bottle. On a race, can you just toss the bottle? Is that part of the service of the race? I cant imagine that it is! Why on earth do you find the XLab dorky?? For my HIM I used my "dorky" XLab for two bottles and one frame mount bottle. Presto. Had all the fluids I needed without having to worry about bottle exchange or anything. This was literally all I used on the bike. I had a home made kind of Infinit drink in the bottles. Food and fuel all in one. Now keep in mind that I do NOT sweat......so one bottle an hour is all the fluid I need. |
| 2010-04-27 8:51 AM in reply to: #2819011 |
Master 2158 | Subject: RE: Hydration tactic in HIM I would say it depends on the race as well. Some smaller races often mention that you shouldn't "depend" on the course for food or drink. I personally LOVE the aerobottle up front. It is easy to fill, and once you get a good system for keeping it from flying off the bike, it is great. I also switched to having the bottles on the back, rather than the frame. This means that I can jam one of them in the aero to refill it and keep going. At the "refill" stops, I usually toss my bottle as I am coming in and then grab one. Remember to slow down to grab, as it can be a little awkward if you haven't practiced. |
| 2010-04-27 9:00 AM in reply to: #2819120 |
| 233 | Subject: RE: Hydration tactic in HIM Sorry, despite being longwinded, I deleted some relevant info. While I like to THINK I am uber fast, my reason for the frame-mounted cage delete is that I spent uber-$ on my Cd0.1 and would like to not disrupt all the cool airflow the engineers worked so hard to insure flows in the right directions and smoothly (Google "shift cd0.1" for info.) I am sure that the three-second  advantage I get from it will be uber-important (actually, might be more than that, but what is important to me is that I don't leave free speed on the table if I dont have to. Will I podium? Certainly not this race, nor the next, but next year is a new AG....) Second thing I forgot to mention is that I have found that NUUN is the only thing, not accelerate, not H2O, not diluted gaterade, that I can keep down when going hard. If I can work that into the equation, I will be very happy. |
| 2010-04-27 9:03 AM in reply to: #2819011 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: Hydration tactic in HIM As others noted, you can toss a bottle at the aid station when you grab one--usually just before and/or just after. I usually start with a plastic Gatoade (or other sports drink) bottle filled with whatever I'm using or just an older water bottle that I know I will no longer use. I use the zip-tie method on the aero-bars. Not in the way of my hands and bike computer goes in stem. Really don't like the straw the aero bottles use. If I want another bottle, it goes on the frame. People have looked at aerodynamics of frame vs. rear mount and they come up conflicting. Which tells me that even if it's less aero in my case, it's not likely a big issue. And it may even be faster. Won't know unless I go into a tunnel myself and that ain't happening. I use the frame because I am far less likley to launch a bottle from there thean the rear--see lots of ejected bottle from rear holder on race course. And having the hydration/nutrtion means more than the few seconds it might save. In shorter races, I have only the aero-bar mount. I use a rear bottle carrier only in training. |
| 2010-04-27 9:07 AM in reply to: #2819206 |
Champion 6503 NOVA - Ironic for an Endurance Athlete | Subject: RE: Hydration tactic in HIM My plan: |
| 2010-04-27 9:09 AM in reply to: #2819134 |
| 233 | Subject: RE: Hydration tactic in HIM aquagirl - 2010-04-27 9:46 AM Why on earth do you find the XLab dorky?? Sorry, I shouldn't have used that specific term. I do actually ride with one, I just figured I didn't want to be singled out as "That guy, with more gagets than sence." (and much more importantly, there is a potential for an aero penalty.) Unfortunately, I am actually that guy, so I might as well own up to it. The bike is going to give it away anyway. Besides, I am fast enough not to get passed by the 13 year olds on MTBs, just so as not to give them the satisfaction! Maybe, I should go with the Xlab thingy and an aerobottle up front? Keep one bottle full of my tire kit and a spot for an exchangable second bottle? That should get me through the majority of the bike leg and have spare time to swipe a bottle even if one exchange goes bad. Anyone have a thought on if carrying a case of NUUN tabs is an ok idea? Edited by carbonrx8 2010-04-27 9:11 AM |
| 2010-04-27 9:11 AM in reply to: #2819011 |
Pro 4353 Wallingford, PA | Subject: RE: Hydration tactic in HIM Read this article. You'll see that placement of water bottles doesn't affect aerodynamics all that much.... carbonrx8 - 2010-04-27 10:09 AM Anyone have a thought on if carrying a case of NUUN tabs is an ok idea? I don't see any problem with it. I think if you used a profile design bottle in front, you could drop your nuun tablets in and add water. You would need someplace to stow the empty water bottle, though, until you reach your next bottle exchange (since your unlikely to be able to refill the PD bottle and drop the empty all within the drop zone). Are you sure NUUN will give you enough calories to keep going for an HIM distance race??? Edited by jsnowash 2010-04-27 9:16 AM |
| 2010-04-27 9:15 AM in reply to: #2819233 |
| 233 | Subject: RE: Hydration tactic in HIM I appretiate that input, but I dont think that applies here. Again, google "shift cd0.1" and see why I am going the way I am. I agree that an bottle on the frame might even be a good thing; however, the downtube on the Cd0.1 is shifted away from the drive side of the bike and shaped to push air to the clean side, the result being better aerodynamics. A bottle there is going to screw that up. Will it matter? I won't ever know, but I will try to take advantage of it. |
| 2010-04-27 9:19 AM in reply to: #2819251 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: Hydration tactic in HIM carbonrx8 - 2010-04-27 10:15 AM I appretiate that input, but I dont think that applies here. Again, google "shift cd0.1" and see why I am going the way I am. I agree that an bottle on the frame might even be a good thing; however, the downtube on the Cd0.1 is shifted away from the drive side of the bike and shaped to push air to the clean side, the result being better aerodynamics. A bottle there is going to screw that up. Will it matter? I won't ever know, but I will try to take advantage of it. You did ask what others do. If you've eliminated all the other options already, you don't have any choice. You go with a bottle up front--an aero-bottle in your case. If you need more than 1 bottle, it goes behind the seat. It might not be what I'd do. But I'm not you.  |
| 2010-04-27 9:22 AM in reply to: #2819251 |
Pro 4353 Wallingford, PA | Subject: RE: Hydration tactic in HIM carbonrx8 - 2010-04-27 10:15 AM I appretiate that input, but I dont think that applies here. Again, google "shift cd0.1" and see why I am going the way I am. I agree that an bottle on the frame might even be a good thing; however, the downtube on the Cd0.1 is shifted away from the drive side of the bike and shaped to push air to the clean side, the result being better aerodynamics. A bottle there is going to screw that up. Will it matter? I won't ever know, but I will try to take advantage of it. I did look at it, and still doubt bottle placement will make that much difference. But if you really don't want to put bottles on the frame, then do what works for you! Aero bottle and behind the seat carrier sounds like it would meet your needs.... |
| 2010-04-27 9:38 AM in reply to: #2819273 |
| 233 | Subject: RE: Hydration tactic in HIM Ok, great! Splitting hairs on aero aside, it is clear I need at least ONE standard bottle cage somewhere on the bike to make use of the aid stations. With the NUUN idea, an aerobottle sounds like a winner and that means I need a standard cage either on the frame or on the back to stash empties (will likely go with the back, but that is just me.  ) Sounds good!As for calories, NUUN has none. I have kinda adapted to the more fruity tasting gels over the years and will go with those. Some of the ones from Hammer now-a-days are actually pretty good. As I need a place to store the NUUN, I will have to opt for using a bento box and the gels can go in there. I have figured, based on training that I need 4 gels; I will carry four or five. Thanks!!! (The only downside I see to this is that this brilliant bike looks redonkulous with all the crap on there. It is rather bothersome.) Edited by carbonrx8 2010-04-27 9:40 AM |
| 2010-04-27 9:48 AM in reply to: #2819197 |
Master 1810 Morse Lake, Noblesville, Indiana | Subject: RE: Hydration tactic in HIM carbonrx8 - 2010-04-27 10:00 AM While I like to THINK I am uber fast, my reason for the frame-mounted cage delete is that I spent uber-$ on my Cd0.1 and would like to not disrupt all the cool airflow the engineers worked so hard to insure flows in the right directions and smoothly I have the Cd0.1 too, but my issue is not one of aerodynamics. The bosses on my size 51 frame do not allow me to carry a large water bottle, and the bosses on the seat tube do not allow me to mount a cage because the BB area is too close - it's a design flaw if you ask me... I'll be running a xlab and a bontie aero bottle this year on my Cd0.1. |
| 2010-04-27 10:03 AM in reply to: #2819336 |
Master 9705 Raleigh, NC area | Subject: RE: Hydration tactic in HIM Based on the QR wind tunnel data, it looks like your choices are aerobars or behind the seat. |
| 2010-04-27 11:06 AM in reply to: #2819011 |
Elite 5316 Alturas, California | Subject: RE: Hydration tactic in HIM I have a downtube, areo type bottle with 1 chamber for water 1 for infinit and a neverreach on the back. I can usually get away with 1 bottle of water between aid stations and sometimes I can go every other aid station on the bike. I really depends on how hot it is. At 105 F one needs a lot of water, at 60 F, not so much. On a cold rainy HIM I did not have to pick up any water, I had enough from what I started with. On long hot rides in training I can cary 140 oz ish on the frame and go through all of it and need more if temps are 100 or so. For all aero bottles I recommend getting a camelback bite valve and putting it on the end, possibly with some extension flexible plastic tubbing from the hardware store. This prevents you from getting splashed and keeps you from getting jabbed in the mouth on bumps when drinking. |
| 2010-04-27 11:32 AM in reply to: #2819422 |
Master 2426 Central Indiana | Subject: RE: Hydration tactic in HIM jmkizer - 2010-04-27 11:03 AM Based on the QR wind tunnel data, it looks like your choices are aerobars or behind the seat. ???? This testing apparently involved naked bikes. Riders significantly change airflow & drag, frame-mounted bottle cages or not. |
| 2010-04-27 11:33 AM in reply to: #2819219 |
Pro 4828 The Land of Ice and Snow | Subject: RE: Hydration tactic in HIM pga_mike - 2010-04-27 10:07 AM My plan: Believe me , not sweating is a HUGE problem for me. I wish I could sweat. I suffer badly in the heat. Guess thats why I live in the Land of Ice and Snow! |
| 2010-04-27 11:39 AM in reply to: #2819679 |
Champion 7233 | Subject: RE: Hydration tactic in HIM personally, one small regular bottle on the down tube. toss away and grab new one at aid stations. from all of my testings the bottle was the same speed as without one. no behind the seat or bar mounted bottles. At the speeds i am racing seconds do matter, and i am not going to give them up, but this is prettu much a wash. |
| 2010-04-27 11:49 AM in reply to: #2819802 |
Master 9705 Raleigh, NC area | Subject: RE: Hydration tactic in HIM Oldteen - 2010-04-27 12:32 PM jmkizer - 2010-04-27 11:03 AM Based on the QR wind tunnel data, it looks like your choices are aerobars or behind the seat. ???? This testing apparently involved naked bikes. Riders significantly change airflow & drag, frame-mounted bottle cages or not. I was just saying that the OP seems to be fixed on the aerodynamics depicted in the link. Looking at the graphic, that would leave the spot between the aero bars and behind the seat. Myself, I would have assumed that the braze ons are there to be used. |
| 2010-04-27 1:04 PM in reply to: #2819862 |
| 233 | Subject: RE: Hydration tactic in HIM jmkizer - 2010-04-27 12:49 PM Oldteen - 2010-04-27 12:32 PM jmkizer - 2010-04-27 11:03 AM Based on the QR wind tunnel data, it looks like your choices are aerobars or behind the seat. ???? This testing apparently involved naked bikes. Riders significantly change airflow & drag, frame-mounted bottle cages or not. I was just saying that the OP seems to be fixed on the aerodynamics depicted in the link. Looking at the graphic, that would leave the spot between the aero bars and behind the seat. Myself, I would have assumed that the braze ons are there to be used. I think this thread was very helpful to me. Thanks for all the input. Basically, given the stated restrictions, I have come to the conclusion that a single cage is absolutely required to use the bottle exchanges (so that tossing a bottle outside of the allowed area does not occur.) As for tube or rear mount, there is no data set that has been generated or will be generated to answer this question on my specific ride. So it comes down to preference, availibility, and a coin toss. I think my coin came up tails. As for the brazons, it is a screw. The cage goes on for training as it comes off for races. If you want to go down that road, they are nicely shaped for air flow that could only occur if the cage was OFF. So yes, they are there for a purpose. |
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