Yes, triathlon bikes are faster (Page 2)

Just to play DA with the DA, that is not a very good defense.  The easy comeback is that they are not as fast as they could (should) be.  Just sayin'. 

How does colour play into your equation?  I have no data but I suspect my blue&gray tribike is slower than my red CX bike.

Assuming the position could be replicated exactly between bikes, you are going to pick up any aero benefit of the frame and the handlebar set up.  In the ballpark of .5 mph perhaps.  However, in most cases the position can be improved a good bit on a dedicated TT bike.  Generally, the taller you are, the more this is true. IOW, the taller you are, the more difficult it is to hit a good TT position on a converted road bike. 

Nice adjustable aero bars (Profile T2s work well) a Fast Forward seatpost and an adjustable stem are the necessary parts for most folks. Most get the bars and the seatpost but not the stem. The stem is crucial as a tall road bike head tube combined with a high stack aerobar (like the Profiles) = a very high position.

So for most folks, yeah, 1-2 mph coming froma road bike with clip ons.

Dave,

I appreciate what you are saying and agree with it; however, I think it's safe to say that everyone can get a better aero possiton, everyone can get better swimming, everyone can get better running... I don't think there is any one person that does all three perfect... or at least very few.

I've seem so many "check my fit" threads on this site it almost gets tiring to read them all... almost every single one is WAY too tall to get any real bennifit from "aero" possition... but we all must start from somewhere.  If you take one of these beginners and throw them down to a very aggresive possition, will they adapt... sure... but at what cost?  Do they ride less because it's so uncomfortable at first... Do they stop riding all together and giveup because of the loss in comfort? 

Didn't we just have a debate on neck pain where you said you've been riding with some degree of pain for the last 5 years?  Would you agree that some people out there would give up the sport if that was the case.. or at least it would impact the training they did to some degree? 

I think when you look at possition, you NEED to look at the goals of the rider and level of competition the rider wants to get to... If they want to finish a race, then they may need to be in a less aggressive possition (yes at the loss of speed which I agree with your thoughts).  If they want to place in a race, then you may need to go lower to get that speed to be competitive... but at that point I think the rider has made piece in his mind that PAIN is just something that will be there in the race if he's pushing his body to the limits...

Your post is very accurte, but means little to the beginner... it could damage their riding much more than it helps them... for the Professional or Competitive racer, you are absolutely correct IF that possition doesn't hurt the other aspects of the race they are in. 

I think we should be very careful when we make blanket statements like "Lower is Better", because in my opinion that is not always the case... so why try to make it fit for everyone? (yes, I know you give room in your post for those that it will not work for... but I think it's good to mention it again.)  Just like your profile picture blows my mind in the arm angle... it works for you, and that's what matters.

As a football coach I can state emphatically that when it comes to leverage, specifically with blocking and tackling, low man wins.

Carry on.

This is where I really get into the "it's not rocket science" soap box. GO AHEAD AND FIDDLE! But also, know where you started so you can go back if things don't improve. In fact, you should always be able to back up one step in case you overstep the adaptation curve.

Taking out a spacer, moving a saddle forward (and up to compensate), putting on a negative-rise stem, adjusting aero-bar pad width... none of it is particularly complex mechanically. Make small adjustments, evaluate, adapt, make adjustments... It's a progression.

Having said that... you have to keep in mind that it's not as simple as dropping the front end... moving one thing changes three or more other things...your arm angle and hip angle will change for sure.  Move your seat up and your knee angle is going to change, ect, ect...

This could be for the better or worse depending on where you're starting from.  If you have an ideal setup in body angles now, dropping the front end a spacer is going to change those angles and you'll need to adjust things to get all those angles back to where you want them.  This is where I think a fitter comes into play, as they can see you in realtime and make adjustments to get you back to where your body angles where prior to the change. 

Can you do that on your own, sure... but it's not as easy, IMO.  On the flip side, who can afford to get a fitting done every time they want to tweak something...

Depends on the lighting conditions.  If the sun is at your back black will be faster.  In your face and white is faster.  

Is there a normal amount you have to move your saddle if you lower your front by a spacer?

For me racing with power, my fitter set me up lower with my Ordu and I had a fast Oly bike split for my lower power output (recovering from knee surgery).  Same speed as last time on the course with about 25 watts less power. It was uncomfortable so we changed it for my IM. I'd like to play around with changes and make them gradually.

Great post & discussion! 

From perspective of long-time mid-aged cyclist I think Dave's clientele is more athletic than ave fitter might see.  Proper fit remains individual. That said, I think general principles mentioned are solid.  No question lower is most often faster, but exceptions are rel common.  Watch one TT stage of the grand tours & you'll see some rather sub-optimal (from aero perspective) positions among very fast pro riders.  With all that team $$ & support one can only assume that the positions are best (or near-best) for these individual pros.  And they do not have to run off the bike.  Also- as many who have done WT testing have found- lower is better only up to a point. Joe Friel reported this on his blog last year.

http://www.trainingbible.com/joesblog/2010/02/my-bike-fit-and-wind-tunnel-testing.html

And a lower, faster position that cannot be maintained by the rider over distance may be slower overall if the discomfort causes rider to sit up periodically (huge parachute effect).  Only a few such sit-ups more than erase a small aero advantage of a more aggressive position that a rider simply cannot sustain the entire bike leg. Empfield over on ST has mentioned observing this many times during amateur events.  I ride most aggressive position I can maintain throughout the event I'm riding.  Personally my neck is a limiter in lowering my position.  Plenty of flexibility elsewhere.  Don't think I am alone in that anatomical limitation.

But lower is not always more comfortable, even on a road bike.  I made that mistake a few years ago just weeks before a 150+mi event.  Figured I would try a more upright stem for "comfort".  My shoulders were feeling odd after 20mi rides, & screaming after just a 100k.  Went back to my original stem & was had very strong ride in my long event.  Sometimes lower is MORE comfortable.

My experience supports Dave's assertion of 1-3mph advantage of tri bike vs roadie on typical flat course.  But I am prob not alone in making mistake of trying to remain aero on steeper hills where I should have stood up & climbed properly.  On rolling &/or technical terrain the aero advantage of tri bike my be reduced (even lost) if the bike is not ridden well.  I always try to ride (or at least review) bike course before an event. Even for MOP biker, planning where to stand, corner (grab horns), drink/eat, etc. can help make the most of tri bike speed advantage.

so if you start off with lousy hip angle flexibility (i'm 91*) how do you increase hip flexibility to take advantage of being able to get a lower front end?? or does it not matter??

Are you riding with a 91* hip angle right now?  I personally don't think 91* degrees is a bad angle.  I strive to have a 90* hip and a 90* arm angle... it seems to work best for me, you may be different.

I think the idea of getting a lower front end is to adjust other things to keep your angles you have now, if those angles are working for you.  I could be wrong, but I think what Dave was sayiing is you CAN go lower and keep the same arm/hip angles... and therefore, pretty much keep the same power at a lower possition... IE the piviot point is really the BB and not your hip... I could be wrong there... but that was my take on it. 

You can start in a good position....you don't have to ride a crap position in order to "adapt".

My girlfriend got her first TT bike (2011 P2) a few months ago. I immediately dropped the front end as low as it would go and set her up on it. She NEVER rode a crap slack position and guess what....she was fine right off the bat. Sure she had a little neck discomfort which is NORMAL for a good position. Not even close to bad enough that she didn't want to ride.

Again, I didn't put her in some CRAZY low position...which I don't think anyone is advocating here...just a solid aero position.

Rotating that down lower CAN cas discomfort in different places... ie he neck and the seat... AGAIN, each case is it's own, so not one thing is going to be true for everyone... Which is my point... Each person will react differently to each possition and each person has differernt goals... all of which need to be taken into account to find a good possition of each rider...

For your Girlfriend it was fine and good to be that low, for someone else, it may not be... there is no perfect possition that will work for every person.  I can tell you from my experience that I was put in a way too aggressive possition when I first started riding... it kept me from riding in Aero at all... I moved away from the TT bike for that reason and went more the road bike route... only now moving back toward the "aero" possition... being too aggressive years ago was close to causing me to "stop" doing triathlons or at least, stopped me from wanting to compete... over the years of moving lower and lower, I'm more aggressive now in my possition that I was when I was first setup and had the issues.... For me, being low and aggressive early, stunted my progression... for your GF, that wasn't the case.

I feel that a fitter needs to take more into consideration than just a simple knowledge of geometry...   In my opinion, if a fitter assumes a certain setup is correct before they even ask a single question... they've already failed.  If you don't understand the client and their needs/goals, I don't see how you can put them into a good possition for them... and for that reason, I don't think there is any way an online fitting video will every be as good as what an in person fitting SHOULD/COULD be... I think what we see online is more dealing in general terms where some tweaking is going to be needed to zero in on a good fit...

Totally agree. The problem I see is that most fitters hear the person say "new", "beginner", "novice" "just starting" and automatically put that person in a crap position. They interpret these phrases or words as the same as someone saying, I don't care about speed, I just want to be comfy....now if THOSE words come out, I get it. Most people are there to race though and do want to do as best they can.

IMO, you should start with the best position and work backwards towards acceptable levels of discomfort and power. Starting on a couch and slowly going lower is a waste of time. If my girlfriend expressed discomfort beyond what was tolerable, I would have made changes and tinkered till we got it. I just think that people wrongly assume that an aggressive position is automatically going to mean loss of power and comfort.

Speaking of adaptation,  How long should it take to adapt to the TT position.  I trained all winter with a power meter in a road position.  I had aero bars but only put limited amount of time on them.   Not very smart... I know.   In my first race of the season, I rode on aero bars of my road bike ( was fit by the local shop ).  I only managed to put out 70% of my 20 minute road position power over a 12 mile route.  My 5k was 4 minutes slower than my open 5k time.

When I move into my road position from TT I instantly feel more powerful for my RPE.  I've only got about 175 miles of training in TT position.

I understand you can't give an exact answer but since you're a fitter, you may be able to give an educated guess to the following:

1.  How long miles or hours would you imagine before you start getting acclimated to the TT position and get the TT power more in line with road position power?

2.  Would you recommend moderate riding when trying to get acclimated to the position or just jump right in with power training?

My neck doesn't hurt because of my position, my neck hurts because of what I do with my head in that position. I could simply raise my head without making any adjustments to the bike and my neck would feel better as I ride slower. I found the balance between comfort and speed that works for me.

I always address the individual needs of everyone I fit. Nobody looks like me when they leave. They are generally lower, among other things. They are also universally faster and happier.

My post is most useful to the beginner, it is the professionals to whom it may not apply. It will help their riding, not damage anything. If a position or a fitting damages other aspects of a race, than it is not adhering to the principles of proper fitting, whether it is lower or narrower or more aero or faster or not.  My position (and positions) encompasses the need to finish a triathlon in the faster way possible. Not just the bike leg.

Lower is faster. You need to be able to breathe, eat and run. 99% of athletes can get lower and faster and still be able to breathe, eat and run.  Probably closer to 100% of beginner triathletes.

Statements such as "lower might be faster" and "adaptation takes years" are the misleading ones that damage the riding and thinking of those who believe that nonsense.

Your view was different in the other thread...

This is what I am talking about... if true... as you said, the lower you ride the more this will be... So, my point is that to a beginner, that pain may be enough to discourage them from riding in that possition.  Maybe, even enought to stop them from riding much at all...  This is where I say, lower is faster... better is NOT always the case.  In a perfert world it is, but MANY Triathlete's are not trying to win or place, just finish... where these athletes may not be the ones you are seeing while doing fittings, I do believe they are many in that catagory that view this site and for them... Lower MAY not be better and it MAY take years to adapt...

Again, that may not be the case 100%, and I think you were saying that in your post... but the overall tone of your post came across to me as a blanket statement... one which I don't agree with. 

In the end, it's just my opinion... so any reader, including yourself should take it with a grain of salt.  Cause I can assure you that I don't know it all.